Why so few historic buildings in Ireland?

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 10:42am #1

Just curious as to why there are so few historic buildings in Irish towns (when compared to Britain)? No timber framed Tudor frontages from 500 years ago, few Cromwellian houses in the middle of towns. Not saying that they don't exist in Ireland it's just that there are so many of them across the water, which begs the question why so few here?

So many ancient pubs in England & Wales too, hundreds of years old, not so many here. Why?

Curious.

whisky_galore · 01-09-2020 10:45am

Suspect originally built with poorer, substandard materials to start with. Lack of maintenance too.
The mania for "new" things has put paid to many a traditional bar esp from 60s and 70s onwards.

SouthWesterly · 01-09-2020 10:45am

We where an impoverished colony ruled by landlords from London. No need for nice houses or pubs

Man with broke phone · 01-09-2020 10:47am

British probably burned them.

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 10:49am

SouthWesterly wrote: »

We where an impoverished colony ruled by landlords from London. No need for nice houses or pubs

So either they never existed in the 1st place because we were so poor and impoverished or the British burned them, really? Surely there must have been some Tudor timber framed buildings in Ireland, or did London forbid it?

Peregrinus · 01-09-2020 10:50am

A few cathedrals aside, there are only a handful of urban buildings surviving in Ireland that predate 1700. This is the result partly of the relative poverty of the country (buildings were not built to last or, if built to last, were replace with newer, larger buildings when times became more prosperous) and partly of the relatively warlike condition of the country (towns were sacked, and buildings trashed or destroyed).

There's any number of older buildings in rural areas - tower houses are common and, of course, a lot of monastic ruins survive. But they were stone-built, whereas urban buildings tended to be timber-framed, with rubble infill and plaster render; only the chimneystacks would be made of brick. We don't get many all-brick houses in Ireland before the 18th century.

antimatterx · 01-09-2020 10:51am

I think Irish architecture is poor, especially compared to the British. Irish buildings are very plain and lack any sort of imagination.

spurious · 01-09-2020 10:56am

Ormond Castle in Carrick on Suir would be mostly Tudor, I think.

CrabRevolution · 01-09-2020 10:57am

Peregrinus wrote: »

A few cathedrals aside, there are only a handful of urban buildings surviving in Ireland that predate 1700. This is the result partly of the relative poverty of the country (buildings were not built to last or, if built to last, were replace with newer, larger buildings when times became more prosperous) and partly of the relatively warlike condition of the country (towns were sacked, and buildings trashed or destroyed).

There's any number of older buildings in rural areas - tower houses are common and, of course, a lot of monastic ruins survive. But they were stone-built, whereas urban buildings tended to be timber-framed.

That's my take on it too. Just thinking about the towns I frequent and aside from medieval ruins, the next oldest buildings are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The Tudor or "Cromwellian" (I've never heard that phrase used to describe architecture) buildings the OP mentions don't seem to have lasted 200 years, never mind 500.

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 11:06am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

That's my take on it too. Just thinking about the towns I frequent and aside from medieval ruins, the next oldest buildings are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The Tudor or "Cromwellian" (I've never heard that phrase used to describe architecture) buildings the OP mentions don't seem to have lasted 200 years, never mind 500.

Cromwellian, as in from that period of history.

Yes, apart from the odd castle and stately home there are very few towns where you can walk through the doors and be transported back three, four, five or six hundred years as you sit beside a giant fireplace and sip on a pint.
That's what I'm talking about.

sydthebeat · 01-09-2020 11:06am

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/

only 65,000

Peregrinus · 01-09-2020 11:06am

antimatterx wrote: »

I think Irish architecture is poor, especially compared to the British. Irish buildings are very plain and lack any sort of imagination.

For much of the time, Irish architecture is basically the same as British architecture, but with less money spent on it.

There are a couple of exceptions - Irish plasterwork of the 18th century, at its best, is superior to anything you will find in Britain, for example. But in general Irish architecture was the poor provincial relation of British architecture.

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 11:10am

So where have so many of our ancient buildings gone, and why are there so many if them still standing across the water?

Not talking quality of plasterwork, or ornate frontages, just common historic buildings from town centres.

01-09-2020 11:13am

Many of the old country houses were burned down during and after the War of Independence.

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 11:15am

...I know that.

SouthWesterly · 01-09-2020 11:37am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...I know that.

So why are you asking?

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 1:40pm

Why am I asking?

But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame

Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.

Peregrinus · 01-09-2020 3:37pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Why am I asking?

But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame

Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.

There would be few municipal buildings dating from before the 17th century in England. In an ancient city like York, for example, the site of the municipal buildings has been in use for civic buildings since the fifteenth century, but the oldest part of the buildings now standing there dates only from 1811, earlier structures having all been replaced over the years.

Still, there would be more urban buildings from the 17th century and before in England than in Ireland, and this is for three reasons. First, England was a much more urbanised society than Ireland, and therefore there were more urban buildings to begin with, both private and civic. Secondly, England was much richer, and could build to a higher standard, and spend more on maintenance and repair. Thirdly, England was peaceful.

Stone-built buildings will stand for a long time, but otherwise, until people started building in brick, very few buildings lasted more than 100 years, and the great majority lasted less than 50 years. Brick didn't become an affordable building material in England until the seventeenth century, and in Ireland until the eighteenth. Much before that, you had to be fabulously wealthy to build in brick. And nobody in Ireland was fabulously wealthy.

There are a few brick houses surviving in Irish towns from the seventeenth century, mostly incororporated into later structures and remodelled so that they no longer look like seventeenth century houses. I'm not aware of any that are open to the public. Castles, churches, cathedrals and Newgrange aside, the oldest building in Ireland that you can visit would, I think, be the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham - construction started in 1680. It's brick-built.

Del.Monte · 01-09-2020 5:49pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Why am I asking?

But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame

Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.

Bray was a collection of mud huts before the coming of the railway.

F5500 · 01-09-2020 5:52pm

Leamaneh is over the road from me and it's in pretty good nick.

Always thought it would be lovely if it was restored as the likes of Bunratty, but I'm sure it'd cost many millions.

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2020 5:54pm

The minute the Viking settlement at Wood Quay was built on I kind of gave up.

Addle · 01-09-2020 5:54pm

Kilkenny has retained some of its medieval architecture.

Yakult · 01-09-2020 5:57pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So many ancient pubs in England & Wales too, hundreds of years old, not so many here. Why?

"Seans Bar" in Athlone

"Sean's Bar is a pub in Athlone, Ireland, notable for its claim of being established around AD 900, which would make it the oldest bar in Ireland and possibly all of Europe."

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2020 5:59pm

Addle wrote: »

Kilkenny has retained some of its medieval architecture.

It has indeed, lovely spot altogether.

There are a lot of castles around the place, mostly either in ruins or restored and are now high end hotels.

OP, it is a question that kind of answers itself, but is very sad just the same.

When you look at village greens in England and how much has been preserved it is unreal. Some really fabulous spots in England. Have relatives who live in Thame in Oxfordshire. It pains me every time we visit, because so much of the ancient High Street is still there, and it is really picturesque. But it is a working town, and I doubt the natives even see it anymore now. But we did!.

Same goes for a lot of English heritage, their National Trust works hard to keep it going.

Harry Palmr · 01-09-2020 6:03pm

Waterford has some fine Georgian buildings esp on the Mall, Parnell Street, down the Quays, Georges Street and city end of O'Connell Street.

Waterford City can boast the finest collection of eighteenth-century architecture in any city in Ireland outside Dublin. This period of Georgian elegance began with the construction in 1741 of the Church of Ireland Bishop’s Palace to a design by the celebrated Richard Castle (d. 1751); the palace was completed by the Waterford-born John Roberts (1712-96).

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/places-to-visit/waterford/waterford-waterford-bishops-palace/

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2020 6:06pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Waterford has some fine Georgian buildings esp on the Mall, down the Quays, Georges Street and city end of O'Connell Street.

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/places-to-visit/waterford/waterford-waterford-bishops-palace/

So has Limerick and Dublin.

I think what OP was referring to was the ANCIENT stuff, like the Norman churches, the timber framed housing, the pubs extant since the 16th c or before with uneven floors, the thatched cottages in a cluster, the village green, and so on.

Stratford on Avon is one example.

01-09-2020 6:10pm

Ancient buildings were destroyed by the Brits and various other conquests over the centuries.

Ireland wasn't as backward or destitute as people make out. If not for Irish monks a lot of European history would have been lost.

selectamatic · 01-09-2020 6:19pm

Many town structures and buildings were burned down/destroyed during times of violence too so it's definitely not something confined to stately homes.

Widespread destruction in Dublin during the 1916 rising

The burning of cork
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork

In Ballaghaderreen Numerous premises burned down in retaliation for the ratra ambush including the 2 of the largest buildings in the town.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/ira-headquarters-refused-request-to-defend-ballaghaderreen-1.4037571

Many other examples of conflict resulting in widespread damage to buildings in towns all over Ireland.

Harry Palmr · 01-09-2020 6:20pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So has Limerick and Dublin.

I think what OP was referring to was the ANCIENT stuff, like the Norman churches, the timber framed housing, the pubs extant since the 16th c or before with uneven floors, the thatched cottages in a cluster, the village green, and so on.

Stratford on Avon is one example.

Well Tudor styles in Ireland were basically mud huts! Just like in England for the agrarian populace.

Some "baronial halls" do exist like Carrick as mentioned but considering the centuries of conflict and retribution it's probably not a shock that few "domestic" structures of that era exist. It should be said some exist but as sections of a more modern structure so can be hard to spot.

One of that type in Waterford that is very central in T&H Doolans which was build in 1710 but has features from the 11th century.

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2020 6:31pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well Tudor styles in Ireland were basically mud huts! Just like in England for the agrarian populace.

Some "baronial halls" do exist like Carrick as mentioned but considering the centuries of conflict and retribution it's probably not a shock that few "domestic" structures of that era exist. It should be said some exist but as sections of a more modern structure so can be hard to spot.

One of that type in Waterford that is very central in T&H Doolans which was build in 1710 but has features from the 11th century.

How did that survive? Is it the original or a pastiche do you know..

Spanish Eyes · 01-09-2020 6:41pm

This was a place our relatives took us for lunch. On the banks of the Thames not far from London in Wolvercote. Absolutely gorgeous spot.

Be rather difficult to find similar here.

The Trout Inn. Sitting outside on the banks of the river was magical, and the place is ancient also. Just saying, and that was just ONE place we visited in the area, all delightful. But sure when you're on holliers everything looks great I know that, but still.

https://www.thetroutoxford.co.uk/

Hamsterchops · 01-09-2020 10:38pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think what OP was referring to was the ANCIENT stuff, like the Norman churches, the timber framed housing, the pubs extant since the 16th c or before with uneven floors, the thatched cottages in a cluster, the village green, and so on.

Stratford on Avon is one example.

Exactly what I'm talking about .....

So many examples in towns across England & Wales.

Hurrache · 01-09-2020 10:42pm

Man with broke phone wrote: »

British probably burned them.

Moreso the Irish burned them, many were seen as symbols of British rule and landlords.

looksee · 01-09-2020 10:54pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well Tudor styles in Ireland were basically mud huts! Just like in England for the agrarian populace.

Some "baronial halls" do exist like Carrick as mentioned but considering the centuries of conflict and retribution it's probably not a shock that few "domestic" structures of that era exist. It should be said some exist but as sections of a more modern structure so can be hard to spot.

One of that type in Waterford that is very central in T&H Doolans which was build in 1710 but has features from the 11th century.

I'd bet there are not too many Tudor timber houses with quoins.

Reginald's tower in Waterford is the oldest continually used municipal building in Ireland.

JustAThought · 01-09-2020 11:17pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Exactly what I'm talking about .....

So many examples in towns across England & Wales.

OP seems to be blithely and blissfully unaware that the UK and Ireland are two entirely different countries. Also shocking lack of basic knowledge about Irish history and fight for emancipation. Perhaps the OP dosn’t know or should google about the fight for Catholic Emancipation and its legal basis. Catholics (majority of the population) not allowed to have civil servant jobs,Catholics not allowed to speak their own native tongue, Catholics not allowed to recieve an education hence illegal hedge schools, CaTholics not allowed to own property over a hovel value, Catholics not allowed to pass land to one child only but forced to subdivide each tiny holding amongst all children leading to subsistance farming & dire poverty, Catholics not allowed to own a horse for personal use or farming over a pitiful value making ploughing a manual backbreakng task, land taken from landed catholic families and given forcibly to UK Protestants to then rent to subsistance Itish families farmers for impossible sums or for the faMilies toliterally be thrown onto the streets/roads and forced to starve, go to the workhouse or emigrate on coffin ships etc
There is a reason we fought the british empire for generations - finally winning our independence just over 100 years ago. There is a reason why the continued embedded hatred and discrimination in the North caused so much tragedy and hatred and murders and ruined lives well into the 1990’s.

We had better things to be thinking about than pretty houses for future generations.
Most prosperous towns were Dominated by wealthy Protrstants whose houses may have survived or were Market Towns or Garrison Towns where the dominant buildings were the courthouses and administration buildings, tax offices, garrison barracks and cottages for british soldiers, the main constabulary houses etc

Thankfully most issues now resolved and we are stuck with our own government taxing us to extinction instead.

Del.Monte · 01-09-2020 11:43pm

^^^ Lovely simplistic analysis of 800 years of oppression - must be wonderful to see everything in black and white.

Peregrinus · 02-09-2020 2:31am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

How did that survive? Is it the original or a pastiche do you know..

It's a pastiche. The building dates from 1710 and, even then, half-timbering was a historical style. Plus, I strongly suspect that the half-timbering isn't original to the building, but was applied later - probably in the nineteenth or even early twentieth century, when mock-Tudor was fashionable.

Plus, the windows are clearly modern.

Lime Tree Farm · 02-09-2020 6:52am

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/22501100/t-and-h-doolan-great-georges-street-waterford-city-waterford-county-waterford

bobbyy gee · 02-09-2020 7:40am

the English burnt them down
the Irish burnt them down
https://flowtechinc.com/irelands-architecture-history/

OscarMIlde · 02-09-2020 8:42am

Leixlip Castle was built in 1172, and is still inhabited to this day.

Harry Palmr · 02-09-2020 9:32am

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/22501100/t-and-h-doolan-great-georges-street-waterford-city-waterford-county-waterford

When it was open in interior business (and that was a decade ago) you had to watch your head if much more than 6 feet tall,a very cosy ceiling height!

Hamsterchops · 02-09-2020 3:46pm

JustAThought wrote: »

OP seems to be blithely and blissfully unaware that the UK and Ireland are two entirely different countries.

Two islands next door to each other since the beginning of time & for eternity, hence me asking why so few ancient town centre buildings on this island, that's all . . . .

Britain was heavily bombed during WWII yet she still has so many old buildings, while we don't :cool:

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 3:29am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Two islands next door to each other since the beginning of time & for eternity, hence me asking why so few ancient town centre buildings on this island, that's all . . . .

Britain was heavily bombed during WWII yet she still has so many old buildings, while we don't :cool:

Britain wasn't heavily bombed. Germany was heavily bombed.

And, in both countries (but especially in Germany) buildings that appear to be old heritage buildings may in fact turn out to be post-1945 facsimiles of old heritage buildings that were lost in the war. In Germany, in fact, this can be true of whole districts.

dulpit · 03-09-2020 3:36am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Two islands next door to each other since the beginning of time & for eternity, hence me asking why so few ancient town centre buildings on this island, that's all . . . .

1 Island was a coloniser, the other a colony.

gozunda · 03-09-2020 3:59am

bobbyy gee wrote: »

the English burnt them down
the Irish burnt them down
https://flowtechinc.com/irelands-architecture-history/

One of the reasons was that a lot of wooden medieval and later buildings fell down due to damp and humid conditions.

Ireland has a damp and temperate climate. Wood does not last.

Put up a wooden shed or fence and wait 10 years. Similar happened to many early building which literally fell apart after a couple of decades of Irish conditions.

The South of England is much drier and warmer than most of Ireland. Those houses were more likley to survive.

Go to Scotland or coastal Wales and its the same and there's bugger all early wooden buildings survived.

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 4:06am

It's really down to prosperity. A society has to have attained a certain level of prosperity before many people can afford to build in a way that will last. Before that point, castles and churches might be built out of stone, but virtually everything else is jerry-built, and falls down or, if it is damaged, is not considered worth repairing. So buildings are constantly replaced by newer builldings on the same site, and you have few or no suriviving private residences or commercial buildings from the period.

England basically reached this level of prosperity during the Tudor era, so from that point on they were building enough durable houses, etc, that some of them have lasted. So, say, from the early sixteenth century. Ireland didn't get there until the late seventeenth. Whereas if you go to, say, Italy, they got there well before England so you have plenty of houses, villas, etc from the fifteenth century or before.

Captain Havoc · 03-09-2020 11:41am

There are loads of historic buildings in urban areas. A lot of them get hidden behind modern frontage.

gozunda · 03-09-2020 2:32pm

Captain Havoc wrote: »

There are loads of historic buildings in urban areas. A lot of them get hidden behind modern frontage.

True. Not sure about that there's 'loads' though.

https://www.thejournal.ie/oldest-houses-buildings-dublin-4512711-Feb2019/

https://comeheretome.com/2012/12/17/dublins-last-surviving-cage-work-house/

Peregrinus · 04-09-2020 2:45am

Captain Havoc wrote: »

There are loads of historic buildings in urban areas. A lot of them get hidden behind modern frontage.

Depends on what you mean by "historic". There are really small numbers of pre-1700 private residential buildings still to be found in Irish towns. There would be more in in England and many, many more in France, Italy, Germany, etc.

And the "modern frontage" is often eighteenth or nineteenth century.

tromtipp · 11-09-2020 4:34pm

Many of Dublin's medieval and early modern buildings were deliberately destroyed by the Wide Streets Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Streets_Commission.

In smaller towns there is probably a lot more 17thand even 16th century fabric hidden behind later facades than we might expect - in Kilkenny, Rothe House isn't the only surviving 16th century building - but in many cases dating is only going to be possible if details are examined by experts. Town buildings were often stone - it's possible that continental/southern English style cage work houses were never common here - but look at all the medieval stone visible in central Galway.

Yellow_Fern · 13-09-2020 9:19pm

Given the expertise on this thread would anyone be able to date when these these two old buildings were built? I spotted themin old photos of Waterford and Kilkenny. The kilkenny building is a gable fronted structure to the left of Shee Almshouse.

Why so few historic buildings in Ireland?

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