Short Handed Cash Games

ianmc38 wrote:

In late position try to see some cheap flops with more marginal hands like lower suited/unsuited connectors.

Don't limp with big hands like AA, KK, AK etc. These are your big money hands and you want to extract as much as possible from other players when you get them.

Don't overbet with big hands. A big mistake alot of smaller limit players make is to jam with the nuts or with monsters. Unless there are big draws on the table, you want to give good pot odds for your opponent to call. I prefer a bet of about 1/3 of the pot. If you overbet, you'll end up chasing people out instead of extracting one or two small bets from a couple of players.

Don't allow cheap cards when there is a draw. If the board is dangerous and you have something like top pair, top kicker or a set, dont slow play it. For example, if there are two to a flush on the board, then you want to make sure your opponent is getting the incorrect odds to call. Now with just pot odds, we're looking at 2-1, but when you factor in the implied odds of him hitting with his draw, then I think a bet of more than the pot is required eg 1.25/1.33 times the pot. Similarly with an openender, we can afford to give him slightly better odds, but still make sure that he's making a mistake by calling you. Dont ever check when you have a made hand on a board that has a big drawing possibility on it, as more often than not your opponent will be more than pelased to take a free card.

Thats all i can think of right now.

In this post you say -

1. Dont overbet the pot with big hands
2. Overbet the pot with big hands

Something is a miss I feel.

Some general snippets.

Try to incorporate some of the following thoughts:

1. Never open limp.
What does this mean? Opening a pot means that you are the first one in, so if you are the first one to enter the pot, always raise. I find that a pot raise is a good size (3.5x the BB). Often you will win the blinds, and thats a good result.
This serves a few purposes, it gives you a chance to win the blinds, it gives you a chance to buy the button and play in a raised pot in position, and it gives you the best opportunity to win the pot on the flop.

2. Limp small pairs behind limpers. If there are limpers, then its ok to limp with good implied odds hands. Small pocket pairs are great here, if you raise, then you might actually cost yourself money. ... but you might be able to win the pot - I hear you scream - yes this is true - but if you flop a set you might be able to win lots of MONEY. So take a multi-way pot with these hands. Also some SCs are good but you normally should be in position to join in the fray with these hands. (Also suited aces are fine here)

3. Raise limpers with big hands and trash
Consider raising a lot of limpers with both your good hands, some trash hands and some medium trouble hands. You would love to win the pot with your trash and trouble, but you would like to get called with your big strong hands. These hands dont normally perform well in multiway pots so raising narrows the field and gives you a chance to win all those lovely blinds.

4. Learn how to use position.
Position allows you to control the pot size. This is the most difficult to explain. If you have raised preflop, and have 1/2 players still in the pot with you, this is your chance to steal if you have nothing, or check to control the pot, or take a free card. You will need to develop a feel for what sort of flops are stealable, and what sort of flops will get you in trouble.


5. Generate big pots when you have big hands
Play in big pots in position with twopair and better. Try to play smaller pots when out of position with lesser hands (like Top pair).

6. Semi-bluff
Develop a good sense of when to semi-bluff. Semi-bluffing allows you to steal pots on the flop/turn, and adds to your aggressive image, allowing you to get paid off when you hit your big hands (like sets). Play big hands and semi-bluffs the same way. Dont check/call a draw, ... but check/minraise a set. Thats really really obvious. Rather, lead with both, and if raised, PUSH. Note: dont do this with all draws - but select the big ones (12 outs or more).
This will have a dual effect of allowing you to steal lots of pots, and also allowing you to get action on your big hands.

7. Try to figure out your opponents tendencies.
If he is likely to pay you off with top pair - then never semi-bluff him.
If he is likely to fold top pair - then semi-bluff him to death.
You get the idea. Semi-bluffs do not work on calling-stations, but they do work on weak-tighties. Figure out which one of these your opponent is, and play accordingly.

Thats just some general thoughts, make the rest up as you go along.

Cianos wrote:

Some great advice there Fuzzbox,

As a general rule you should be playing very ABC poker, right up as far as $400 (or $2/$4). After that things get a bit trickier and require a bit more thought (and less tables).



I would'nt necessarily agree with this. You dont want to be always betting with hands that you would otherwise limp with (unless your preflop range is very tight I suppose). Maybe on the higher stakes tables when deception is more important, but when you are betting under the gun with 88 on a standard-loose table its just asking for too much trouble imo.

The price your paying for deception still isnt worth it. True you get to control the pot and maybe generate some nice pots when you hit big, but in general the cost of following up bets with probably-dominated hands is not really worth it. If you are one/two-tabling and can get a strong feel for all players at the table then this approach is more doable.

Well thats a function of table-feel. But I open with all pairs for a raise from all positions in most games.

That said - I check a lot of flops that I either hit or miss, especially in position. And I dont always bet full pot on the flop. I bet between half pot and full pot depending on the board texture, and the likelyhood of it hitting my opponent.

So if I raise 88 from UTG, get two callers and the board comes AJ4, well I can just check and fold.

If it comes 744, then I half pot it (I would half pot with AK and 88 and AA and so on)

If it comes A86 two-tone, then Im likely to pot it.

In position, I would probably bet the AJ4 flop if it was checked to me, and play the others the same way. Subtle difference, but important.


Also - remember this is 6-max. So when you open UTG, there are only 3 players behind you, and the blinds are in front of you. Would you open in late middle position with 88 in a full ring game? I believe that *yes* is the answer most often, so you should also open UTG in a full-ring game.

When I open raise with 88, then I am very happy to win the blinds. Its a medium hand, and winning those blinds (1.5 blinds) is a worthwhile endeavour. If somebody wants to play, then I have a hand worth showing down, I can hit a big flop, and I can represent something that I do not have (so if the board came AJ4 and I was against ONE player, then I would bet the flop more often than not).

If I limp, then I cannot win those blinds for free, and I invite others to limp behind me with hands like QT or A5 or so, that have reasonably good equity against me.

If I raise, and somebody calls with a big ace behind me, then I might hit an A8x flop, and I might be able to win a big pot. If not, then I can get away cheap, but over time I win a lot more with this strategy.

If somebody else limps in in front of me, then I am more likely to limp along with my 88, as with multiple players in the pot I want to try to hit a set first and foremost, so I dont mind just taking a flop. That does not mean that I never raise limpers with 88, but that I am more likely to take a flop, hope to hit a set and maybe win a big one.

But I very very rarely open limp, be it 88 or 65s or AK or AA. This is for short handed games only. I rarely open raise from EP in a full ring game. They are different beasts.

Yes I do the same with 22. In the games I play I do not get 2 callers to a preflop raise very often, and I play pretty tight, so I can effectively represent something good very often (like an Ace on the board). Also, if I do get two callers BEHIND me, then I'm always more careful, than if I get two callers in front of me.

In a much looser game, then tone down your raising full stop. See cheap flops a lot, and bust morons overplaying crap cards. Do this mostly in position.

Like I said, its a function of table texture.

ianmc38 wrote:

Open raise with every PP? Quit your jibber-jabber. Thats crazy talk. Even in position I think that limping with 22-66 is far more profitable than to raise. 77/88 I may open raise with when UTG 50% of the time. In late position, I'm raising with these 75% of the time. I dont think open raising from UTG 100% of the time is +EV

How have you come to this conclusion?

Also - there is no need to speak to me like that.

ianmc38 wrote:

I pity the fool that thinks like that.

Wonderfully insightful.

Here was me thinking that this thread was about strategic advice for short handed cash games.

When you disagree with me (which is perfectly ok), please support your disagreements with relevant strategic counter-advice. I support my assertions with relevant strategic advice, and when you say something as flippant as "quit your jibber-jabbing. Thats crazy talk", its hardly the most poker-related strategic insight in the world.

ianmc38 wrote:

In late position try to see some cheap flops with more marginal hands like lower suited/unsuited connectors.

Don't limp with big hands like AA, KK, AK etc. These are your big money hands and you want to extract as much as possible from other players when you get them.

Don't overbet with big hands. A big mistake alot of smaller limit players make is to jam with the nuts or with monsters. Unless there are big draws on the table, you want to give good pot odds for your opponent to call. I prefer a bet of about 1/3 of the pot. If you overbet, you'll end up chasing people out instead of extracting one or two small bets from a couple of players.

Don't allow cheap cards when there is a draw. If the board is dangerous and you have something like top pair, top kicker or a set, dont slow play it. For example, if there are two to a flush on the board, then you want to make sure your opponent is getting the incorrect odds to call. Now with just pot odds, we're looking at 2-1, but when you factor in the implied odds of him hitting with his draw, then I think a bet of more than the pot is required eg 1.25/1.33 times the pot. Similarly with an openender, we can afford to give him slightly better odds, but still make sure that he's making a mistake by calling you. Dont ever check when you have a made hand on a board that has a big drawing possibility on it, as more often than not your opponent will be more than pelased to take a free card.

Thats all i can think of right now.

sorry but i disagree with almost all of this

first of all,you shouldn't be trying to see cheap flops in 6 max with anything (possible exception,depending on style,is 22-55 or so)

the key to 6 max play is agression,trying to sneak in and see cheap flops is pointless,since there are only 6 players anyway,you will make much more money trying to control the hands you are in,playing agressively enough to get payed off when you hit,taking down medium pots with c-bets,2nd barrells,etc

if you have a hand worth playing in late position,you should always raise it,this way if a limper calls you have

-position-no matter how much you have heard about the importance of position,you haven't heard enough,it is the most important thing in nl holdem by far

-the betting initiative-most people who just call preflop plan on folding a flop if they don't hit it hard,they will usually limp in,call your raise,and then check fold,if not a second barrell will often do the trick..

-a metagame image as the guy who is always betting and raising,this is very important in six max


then there's the betsizing thing-betting 1/3 of the pot is too little,you don't have to bet the pot all the time,but like 2/3 or so is decent,on the flop and turn anyway,river bets can be smaller....
the reason you need to bet more than 1/3 of the pot is so that when you're bluffing you have fold equity and when you're ahead you are getting the most value-you have to start to think about poker,particularly 6 max,as being about how you play overall,not just one hand in isolation...if you start betting small on some hands because you have a set and want them to call,its a slippery slope-you should be betting roughly the same regardless of what you have.


also,the stuff about betting to protect draws is one of the most dangerous concepts for mediocre/learning 6 max cash nl players-many otherwise solid/tight players vastly overestimate this...

in reality charging draws in 6 max is way down your list of priorities most times,this is deep stacked poker,the situation where you clearly have a monster and they clearly have a flush draw isn't all that common (and if it is you are playing too tight),usually you will be in far more marginal situations than that,where you may have a top pair,top two,a draw,nothing,pair and a gutshot,bottom pair,and they could also have any of the above...

pot control/getting to a showdown with hands where you might be ahead
/not getting bluffed off a marginal but winning hand/deception on the turn to extraxt value or induce a bluff on the river and these types of things are much more important than charging draws/shutting out flush draws...

six max games (at any level above 2/4) are agressive,and you need to adjust to this...if you are worried about charging draws all the time you are playing way too many big pots and leaving yourself way to many river decisions...
the players who struggle at 6 max are the kind of players who hit TPTK with AK and worry far too much about charging draws,rather than thinking about all the other possible situations out there...

and if you don't need to worry about the above because you're not usually in these situations where you and the villain both have marginal hands,you're not playing agressively enough

Cianos wrote:

Most players find it hard to let go of an Ace, so if you are fortunate enough to hit a set when he hits his ace, happy days. Its not necessary to generate the action preflop, and you will also be shutting off weaker aces around the board.
.

this is a very optimistic way of defending the idea of limping pairs...
lets think about this realisitically,5/10 nl,someone limps with AJo (i'm giving him the strongest A likely for a limper to have to strenghten your arguement),you limp along with 88,BB checks,so there's 35 in the pot...

flop A 8 6, BB has nothing,checks,limper bets his TPJackK,you now have the set you were hoping for,after the limpers flop bet there's 65 in there and you have to find a way to get the other 935 into the pot,the idea that he will just not be able to fold an A is crazy,obviously there are some players that might be that bad,but even most fish will start to get suspicious during the barrage of bets that will have to follow for you to get over 90 big blinds into a limped pot at six max...
and this is giving him AJ,most of the time he will have something closer to A5

RoundTower wrote:

fuzzbox you are obviously spending too much time with your child because the posts in this thread are better than anything I have read here recently. Find an orphanage for the kid and post more.

If anybody wants to come over and babysit so that I can post good advice on boards* then I'm all ears.




* of course I mean go on the lash.