Can guns be bought for self defence in this country?

insertgirder · 13-01-2011 10:04pm #1

Im thinking of the way that Americans can buy guns for self defense-Can irish people do the same?

Paulw · 13-01-2011 10:26pm

There's no "Right to bear arms" in Ireland.

In short, no. But, you can get a license for certain weapons, for hunting or when in a gun club.

But, you can't buy one for self defence.

Zambia · 14-01-2011 7:34am

Paulw wrote: »

There's no "Right to bare arms" in Ireland.

Is that because of the cold?

Yeah thats a no in my opinion unless its changed.

source · 14-01-2011 10:09am

big huge massive no. even down to pepper spray is illegal here.

seamus · 14-01-2011 10:25am

Even if you're standing toe-to-toe with an assailant who's pointing a gun at you and you shoot out of self defence, you'll end up in court defending your actions.

The concept of self-defence in this country is to use the minimum amount of force necessary to defend yourself and flee if you can. Carrying any kind of weapon (even a stick) for self defence can lead to charges relating to intent to cause harm.

Reloc8 · 14-01-2011 3:35pm

Intent of ownership/purpose of ownership is not strictly speaking the relevant issue in determining whether a firearms licence is granted. From memory it comes down to whether the person seeking one is considered fit and proper but a stated purpose for the firearm will have to be given in the application for the licence.

Presuming one has a firearm, could one use it in self-defence ?

Yes, subject to the law applicable to that area. That would apply whether the firearm was legally held or not. As Seamus notes, use of a firearm in self-defence presents great difficult in demonstrating doubt as to whether use of force was lawful in the circumstances and on any shooting by a private citizen that citizen should expect to be charged and face trial.

There is no legal facility in this country however to carry a firearm just in case it is necessary to use it in self-defence or defence of another.

If one were to carry a firearm and justify it by reference to self-defence purposes one would be facing minimum mandatory sentencing as the law does not recognise potential use in self-defence as a lawful purpose in respect of any weapon, and possession of firearms offences now mostly carry minimum mandatory sentencing provisions where the possession is in a public place and the accused can not demonstrate a lawful purpose, or where the possession is in circumstances which are shown in law to be for unlawful purpose.

The issue is slightly more nuanced, Irish people can own firearms lawfully, and use them in self defence lawfully, in principle. In a practical sense many difficulties are presented for the person who has shot another.

If you're asking whether there is any facility/scope for an ordinary citizen to carry a firearm around with them in public places for use in self-defence the answer is no, but the offence is committed under the firearms legislation irrespective of whether one shoots another or is guilty or not guilty of say murder.

If you're asking whether a lawfully owned firearm being carried or kept in lawful circumstances can in principle legally be used in self-defence the answer is yes.

C_Dawg · 18-01-2011 9:46pm

As this is in the legal discussion forum and the topic has already been opened could I ask, is there anything presently that forbids a change in the law in this regard?

For instance, if it was shown that there was enough of a demand throughout the country could it be written into law to allow not only the use of firearms for self or home defence but also allow them to be purchased specifically for that?

coylemj · 18-01-2011 11:10pm

seamus wrote: »

Even if you're standing toe-to-toe with an assailant who's pointing a gun at you and you shoot out of self defence, you'll end up in court defending your actions.

Only if the DPP decides to prosecute you and that will depend on the circumstances and the likelihood that a jury will convict.

seamus wrote: »

The concept of self-defence in this country is to use the minimum amount of force necessary to defend yourself and flee if you can.

No it is not, you are allowed to use reasonable force which does not always equate to minimum force. And if you are in your own home, does the law require you to run out the door and abandon your house and family to the burglar?

seamus wrote: »

Carrying any kind of weapon (even a stick) for self defence can lead to charges relating to intent to cause harm.

Not if you're in your own home and you encounter a burglar, what are you supposed to use - a spatula?

Victor · 19-01-2011 3:22am

C_Dawg wrote: »

As this is in the legal discussion forum and the topic has already been opened could I ask, is there anything presently that forbids a change in the law in this regard?

For instance, if it was shown that there was enough of a demand throughout the country could it be written into law to allow not only the use of firearms for self or home defence but also allow them to be purchased specifically for that?

There is nothing preventing a change in the law once the Oireachtas consents to it.

However, the reality is that if people habitually keep firearms for self defence, them more criminals will carry guns and be more willing to use them.

krd · 19-01-2011 8:08am

I believe there is actually a permit in Ireland for carrying firearms for self-defence. It's a long time since I've heard anything about it. But I think I remember hearing that around 35,000 people in the country have this permit.

Des O'Malley of the PDs was issued a gun after the I.R.A attempted to kill him.

There was a time the I.R.A were running around shooting and kidnapping people.

C_Dawg · 19-01-2011 5:02pm

Victor wrote: »

There is nothing preventing a change in the law once the Oireachtas consents to it.

Ah yeah that makes sense thanks. I was just was wondering, given our early state history and with The Troubles, if there was anything that expressly forbids it.

Victor wrote: »

However, the reality is that if people habitually keep firearms for self defence, them more criminals will carry guns and be more willing to use them.

You could nearly make a thread on that point alone. Could be a lot of arguments for, against and in between lol

krd wrote: »

I believe there is actually a permit in Ireland for carrying firearms for self-defence.

I've read something on here about that already but also that it's issued rare enough. Apparently up North it's allowed for a lot of people though.

seamus · 19-01-2011 5:12pm

coylemj wrote: »

Only if the DPP decides to prosecute you and that will depend on the circumstances and the likelihood that a jury will convict.

Or the very real likelihood that the other guy will take a civil case against you.

No it is not, you are allowed to use reasonable force which does not always equate to minimum force. And if you are in your own home, does the law require you to run out the door and abandon your house and family to the burglar?

At present, the law requires you to flee and abandon your house, yes. You are of course entitled to protect your family if you can't all flee.
"minimum amount of force necessary" == reasonable force in most cases. If you use more force than is necessary, then you've used an unreasonable amount of force.

Not if you're in your own home and you encounter a burglar, what are you supposed to use - a spatula?

Being in your own home is largely irrelevant. If you have a stick under your bed for the sole purpose of using against a potential burglar, then yes you can end up in trouble if you use it.

You're not supposed to confront a burglar under Irish law unless they pose an threat to you or your family which you can't escape from. You're supposed to lock yourself in a room or flee the house and call the Gardai.

This is being changed though, as far as I know the law has been passed, but I don't think it's been enacted yet.

Wolfe Tone · 20-01-2011 5:44pm

I suggest reading this case for further info: The People(DPP) v Kelso (1984)

Basically RUC men go across the border to a pub and take their guns with them, according to Hanly, the court "accepted their possession of these weapons could be for a lawful purpose if they had an honest or reasonable belief that their lives might be in danger and the weapons were needed to guard against that danger"

Victor · 21-01-2011 5:58pm

krd wrote: »

I believe there is actually a permit in Ireland for carrying firearms for self-defence. It's a long time since I've heard anything about it. But I think I remember hearing that around 35,000 people in the country have this permit.

I get the impression that only a handful of people have such permits. Think about it, the only people at realistic risk of being shot in this country are drug dealers and the like.

There is a separate scheme for members of the Garda and Defence Forces to own private weapons. The difference being they all have had a security check.

Sparks · 21-06-2011 12:37am

At the risk of raising a zombie thread, but in the light of a certain solicitor's remarks, it could be said to be topical once again....

seamus wrote: »

At present, the law requires you to flee and abandon your house, yes.

No, it does not, and it never, ever has in Ireland. Common law has always held that there is no duty to retreat within the home. Relevant law includes DPP-v-Barnes (and note that it cites law going back to 1329 in support of the judgement rendered in that case).

"minimum amount of force necessary" == reasonable force in most cases. If you use more force than is necessary, then you've used an unreasonable amount of force.

But "reasonable" is judged, not in the light of the well-known facts after the incident with the benfit of cool heads and hindsight and full information; but in the state of mind of the person being attacked, without full information available, and under stress. In other words, if you honestly think the attacker is going to kill you, that's the standard to which your actions are later evaluated.

Being in your own home is largely irrelevant.

Barnes completely and specifically disagrees with you there - it points out that the original case in Barnes was at fault because of this assumption.

If you have a stick under your bed for the sole purpose of using against a potential burglar, then yes you can end up in trouble if you use it.

Yes, but that's planning an assault on an unspecified person, not defending yourself from an immediate threat - which is the line the law is trying to draw. The idea is defence, not offence, so when you go from "ohgodohgodohgodI'mgoingtodie" to "The bastard! I'm gonna teach him but good!", you're over the line. (That specific wording may not be listed in the case law records

)

You're not supposed to confront a burglar under Irish law unless they pose an threat to you or your family which you can't escape from. You're supposed to lock yourself in a room or flee the house and call the Gardai.

Do you have a citation for that?

This is being changed though, as far as I know the law has been passed, but I don't think it's been enacted yet.

That was Fine Gael's "Lets put common law into statute law in an attempt to garner more political support" Bill if I remember right

Can guns be bought for self defence in this country?

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