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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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    #1892
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Catalonia is a nation. FACTS .



    ( What is written in straight is , in my opinion, important .

    What is in italic is, in my opinion, less important...

    and what is in italic and underline is petty ... )



    FACT : 16th Nov 2003, a new Catalan Parliament is elected, with a majority* of independentists, and with 88% of them supportting a New Statute of Autonomy


    FACT : 30 th Sept 2005 : The deputies vote and approve at the majority* ( 88 % ) a New Statute of Autonomy , which says that " Catalonia is a nation "


    FACT : 10 May 2006 : the Congress of Deputies and the Senate in Spain vote and approve at the majority* the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT : 18th June 2006 : Catalonia people votes in a referendum and approve at the majority* ( 74% ) the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT: The King of Spain sign the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT: The text , which says that " Catalonia is a nation " , become therefore a law.


    FACT : Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish Prime Minister , declares : " Cataluña es una nación " . Which mean in English : " Catalonia is a nation ".



    OPINION : Tickers thinks that Catalonia is not a nation.




    * see definition here : https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/majority


  • Options
    #1893
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    More seriously :


    Zapatero , former PM of the Spanish Government ( PSOE ) has recently declared that " returning to the 2010 Statute of Catalonia is the only way to solve the Catalan conflict " .
    In his opinion, Spain will have "an open and serious conflict for many years" with Catalonia if the constitutional reform is not addressed from the generosity of all parties"



    Zapatero has insisted that the solution to the conflict with Catalonia must be "eminently political" and from constitutional law, not criminal law.


    Last week, the Catalan president, Quim Torra, said precisely that the Statute "can not be the starting point for negotiations with the PSOE." "We can no longer be in that phase if we have said that we started from that self-determination referendum on October 1 "


    Original in Spanish here : https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Zapatero-Estatut-superar-fractura-Cataluna_0_781472868.html

    In English ( automatic translation ) : https://translate.google.ie/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eldiario.es%2Fpolitica%2FZapatero-Estatut-superar-fractura-Cataluna_0_781472868.html&edit-text=


    Back in Catalonia, Diplocat will be put back in place , and the formerly closed Catalan embassies abroad will re-open. The Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia was set up by the Catalan government and was devoted to promote international awareness of Catalonia within the international community.
    Diplocat and the foreign embassies were closed by PP and Co with the article 155.



    Trapero,former Head of the Mossos ( Catalan police ) has been offered his job back by Quim Torra.
    . He has been sacked previously by the Spanish institutional coup d'etat .

    ( But still under investigation for sedition, he refused politely to take his seat back, though )



    And, as a cherry on the cake :
    - Guilty of tax fraud, author of racist tweets against Black people and against the Catalan independentist movement, Máxim Huerta , new Minister of Sanchez, beat the record of the shortest stay as a Minister before getting sacked : 6 days...


    - Inaki Urdangarin, the brother-in-law of Spain’s King Felipe VI, was last year found guilty of using royal connections for corruption ( amount = €6 M ).
    After losing his appeal, he is suppose ( maybe ! ) to enter in jail within the next few days, to serve a five years and 10 months sentence.


  • Options
    #1894
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Catalonia is a nation. FACTS .

    ( What is written in straight is , in my opinion, important .

    What is in italic is, in my opinion, less important...

    and what is in italic and underline is petty ... )

    FACT : 16th Nov 2003, a new Catalan Parliament is elected, with a majority* of independentists, and with 88% of them supportting a New Statute of Autonomy

    FACT : 30 th Sept 2005 : The deputies vote and approve at the majority* ( 88 % ) a New Statute of Autonomy , which says that " Catalonia is a nation "


    FACT : 10 May 2006 : the Congress of Deputies and the Senate in Spain vote and approve at the majority* the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT : 18th June 2006 : Catalonia people votes in a referendum and approve at the majority* ( 74% ) the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT: The King of Spain sign the text, which says that " Catalonia is a nation ".


    FACT: The text , which says that " Catalonia is a nation " , become therefore a law.


    FACT : Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish Prime Minister , declares : " Cataluña es una nación " . Which mean in English : " Catalonia is a nation ".



    OPINION : Tickers thinks that Catalonia is not a nation.


    * see definition here : https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/majority

    Catalonia is an autonomous community within Spain. The Spanish constitution does not name or refer to Catalonia as a nation. People in Spain don't recognise Catalonia as a nation and no other country, state or nation recognises Catalonia as a nation. Even pro independence supporters themselves recognise that Catalonia is not a recognised nation which is what they are agitating for. The Catalan Statute of Autonomy only exists because the constitution allows it to exist, the Constitution is the rule book and everything else you say is just waffle. You can keep posting links from all around the internet about what politician said what, who punched a police man and other unrelated articles but this is all just noise to distract away from the facts and that you have no justification for the illegal actions of a minority of people in Catalonia.

    The simple facts are that the democratic majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain. If the independence parties want to hold a referendum on independence then they must pass a 2/3 majority in their own parliament as per the statute of autonomy which you referred to multiple times in your last post.


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    #1895
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    That road? Your fapathon over grown sweaty men? I'm sure you go down that road every night mate.

    Actually, you have repeatedly stated Catalonia was not a nation. Wants links? I picked you up on this point. Therefore I came onto ask you was Catalonia a nation, to debate that point. So how is it "WRONG"? You ain't the brightest, are you? The Spanish institutions accepted it was a nation, by enshrining the statute in the constitution that declares Catalonia a nation. If you support the Spanish institutions, do you now concede Catalonia is a nation. If you do not see Catalonia as a nation, are you now saying the Spanish institutions are wrong?

    And before you sidetrack this back to me, I'm a big contradicting hypocrite. So we've clarified my huge flaws. So can you now give a straight answer to the straight question I'm asking you please. Is Catalonia a nation, yes or no?

    Please show me where the constitution refers to Catalonia as a nation?


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    #1896
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    The article explain everything you should know ( by now ) about why the vote in the referendum law was legal. You obviously didn't even understand the title of it...:rolleyes:

    You have difficulties to understand this simple article in Spanish, and yet it's been 8 months now that you are trying to explain us the meaning of some laws texts in Catalan :confused:...

    Right ! ...:D


    Sorry for those readers here who are not familiar with Spanish / Catalan.

    I post links in English whenever I can , but sometimes the article itself doesn't exist in English,or is too poor to be interesting or the automatic translation alters the meaning of it.

    Recent links are often in English, since the Catalonia situation has been broadly put into the light internationally, but that is not the case for older news. ;)

    This is the article you posted
    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...-cataluna.html . You said that it states that the referendum on Oct 1st deemed legal by the Spanish Constitutional Court.

    Can you please show me what part of the article states that the Constitutional Court deemed the referendum on Oct 1 to be legal bearing in mind it was the Constitutional Court that said the referendum was illegal in the first place and a judge instructed the police to remove the ballot boxes.


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    #1897
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Golden Miller has been banned for personal abuse and instructed not to post again on this thread when the ban expires.


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    #1898
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    This is the article you posted
    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica...-cataluna.html . You said that it states that the referendum on Oct 1st deemed legal by the Spanish Constitutional Court.

    No, this is what you understood...

    I haven't said that ...
    At all...

    You are mixing everything, once again ...

    :rolleyes:


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    #1899
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Catalonia is an autonomous community within Spain. The Spanish constitution does not name or refer to Catalonia as a nation.

    Not everything is in the Constitution.
    The last composition of the Spanish Government is not in the Constitution , for example.
    Does it means it's not real or legal ? No.
    Therefore, there is other law texts that complete this Constitution .
    Like the Catalan Statute, where it is written that Catalonia is a nation.
    ( this has been explained to you already yesterday by Golden Miller , and in a more intelligible way than me ...)

    For your information, the Constitution is 40 years old, and has been modified only twice ( for very minor changes ).


    If we follow your " idea ", that means the King had sign a text that is against the Constitution, which is , as you say , the " book of rules ".

    That is pretty serious....

    I propose that you launch a campaign to denounce this, in order to have him in trial for rebellion,sedition, and, since he was paid at the time to sign the text, for misuse of public funds as well.
    What do you think ?


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    #1900
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    (...) you have no justification for the illegal actions of a minority of people in Catalonia.

    Can you please post facts and proves where it is said the" these people " are in minority ?

    In absence of clear and satisfactory responses, I will be force to think that, at the opposite, they are the majority.


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    #1901
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The simple facts are that the democratic majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain.

    Can you please post facts and proves about that ?

    In absence of clear and satisfactory responses, I will be force to think that, at the opposite, they are the minority .


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    #1902
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »

    If the independence parties want to hold a referendum on independence then they must pass a 2/3 majority in their own parliament as per the statute of autonomy which you referred to multiple times in your last post.

    Wrong.
    Explained already yesterday .
    See post 1873


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    #1903
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Catalonia is an autonomous community within Spain
    That is your opinion, but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans ( see referendum of the 18/06/06 )

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The Spanish constitution does not name or refer to Catalonia as a nation.

    No, and the Portuguese one neither.

    But the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia , which is the important one for Catalonia, does recognize Catalonia as a nation.

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    People in Spain don't recognise Catalonia as a nation .
    Please provide solid proves of what you are writing here. Thanks for that

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    no other country, state or nation recognises Catalonia as a nation.
    Scotland ? If no, no problem, the day will come . ( Stupid " requirement " anyway... : live for yourself, forget the fancy clothes and the shiny car to impress the neighbors...)
    That said, Ireland started to be free when the Irish people had decided so. No when the neighbors has decided so...

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Even pro independence supporters themselves recognise that Catalonia is not a recognised nation which is what they are agitating for.



    I don't think you understand well the-pro independence movement.
    A line in the Spanish Constitution , is what they are " agitating for " ??? :D:D:D


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    #1904
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    You can keep posting links from all around the internet about what politician said what, who punched a police man and other unrelated articles but this is all just noise to distract away from the facts and that you have no justification for the illegal actions of a minority of people in Catalonia.


    I understand that you want to keep talking forever about " illegal-illegal-illegal" , the " 2/3 " and " Constitution /not nation ", but other posters , including me, are interested in reading and writing about something else too. That include what happens in Basque Country, and what says the Spanish Prime Minister about Catalonia, for example .



    Thanks to let them the place to do so.


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    #1905
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    I understand that you want to keep talking forever about " illegal-illegal-illegal" , the " 2/3 " and " Constitution /not nation ", but other posters , including me, are interested in reading and writing about something else too. That include what happens in Basque Country, and what says the Spanish Prime Minister about Catalonia, for example .

    Thanks to let them the place to do so.

    This thread is about the Catalan Independence Referendum 2017 which has no legal, constitutional or democratic basis. Other posters including you have made the assertion that Catalonia is a nation not me. If you want to talk about the Basque country then start another thread.


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    #1906
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    No, this is what you understood...

    I haven't said that ...
    At all...

    You are mixing everything, once again ...

    :rolleyes:


    This is what you said, your words not mine.
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    As a prove of this legality, the Spanish Constitutional Court in Madrid , which is the " supreme interpreter of the Spanish Constitution as says Wiki " did validate this referendum law as legal at the unanimity of his members, the 29th of November 2017.


    So, once again, the referendum law was legal regarding Catalan laws and Spanish laws.


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    #1907
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Can you please post facts and proves where it is said the" these people " are in minority ?

    In absence of clear and satisfactory responses, I will be force to think that, at the opposite, they are the majority.

    We've done this multiple times already. You can look up previous posts.

    The reality is that the majority of people in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain and don't want to live in this new made up Country.


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    #1908
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Not everything is in the Constitution.
    The last composition of the Spanish Government is not in the Constitution , for example.
    Does it means it's not real or legal ? No.
    Therefore, there is other law texts that complete this Constitution .
    Like the Catalan Statute, where it is written that Catalonia is a nation.
    ( this has been explained to you already yesterday by Golden Miller , and in a more intelligible way than me ...)

    For your information, the Constitution is 40 years old, and has been modified only twice ( for very minor changes ).


    If we follow your " idea ", that means the King had sign a text that is against the Constitution, which is , as you say , the " book of rules ".

    That is pretty serious....

    I propose that you launch a campaign to denounce this, in order to have him in trial for rebellion,sedition, and, since he was paid at the time to sign the text, for misuse of public funds as well.
    What do you think ?
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    That is your opinion, but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans ( see referendum of the 18/06/06 )




    No, and the Portuguese one neither.

    But the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia , which is the important one for Catalonia, does recognize Catalonia as a nation.


    Please provide solid proves of what you are writing here. Thanks for that


    Scotland ? If no, no problem, the day will come . ( Stupid " requirement " anyway... : live for yourself, forget the fancy clothes and the shiny car to impress the neighbors...)
    That said, Ireland started to be free when the Irish people had decided so. No when the neighbors has decided so...


    I don't think you understand well the-pro independence movement.
    A line in the Spanish Constitution , is what they are " agitating for " ??? :D:D:D

    I'm sorry but this is just waffle which I can't respond to because it is difficult to understand and doesn't make any sense.


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    #1909
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    This is what you said, your words not mine.


    This is what I thought .


    You still haven't understand the way the Referendum Law was passed in the Catalan Parliament .


    As said in my previous post : " Once again and again, the Catalan Parliament didn't need a 2/3 majority to pass the referendum law, as you wrongly think and wrongly spread the idea ."


    My posts, the article linked and the TC decision link is about that, how can you failed to see it ?



    Everybody except you understood perfectly that I'm talking about the legality of the way this Referendum Law was voted and passed in the Catalan Parliament.
    That was in response of your " 2/3 " requirement.

    I'm not talking about the legality of the content of the Referendum Law regarding the Spanish laws. This has nothing to do with your " 2/3 " requirement.


    Do you understand the difference now ?


    If not, you could check the basics here :
    ( you could have done it 8 months ago too, that would have prevent this thread to be spammed with fake assertion from your part )


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Referendum_on_Self-determination_of_Catalonia


    It is clearly written :
    " the Spanish Constitutional Court endorsed the reform of the Parliament regulation that allowed passing the law "


    With links , similar to the one I gave already

    https://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/Constitucional-reglamento-Parlament-JxSi-CUP_0_713229236.html


    https://www.ara.cat/politica/TC-declara-constitucional-reforma-reglament-Parlament_0_1915008642.html


    Of course, I'm aware from the beginning that the content of the law has been declared unconstitutional , we all know that from day 1 ... :D:D:D. But that is not the point.



    I hope that, this time, you will understand that, no, the Catalan Parliament doesn't need 2/3 of votes to pass a law .

    They have done it in the past without legal problems, and , unless the regulations change, they can do it again the same way.


    If I have a bit of time one day, I will explain you that this " lectura unica " or " via expres " way of passing laws is common in Spain, and regulated by the rules .
    Everybody use it, the PP included at a national level.
    All Autonomous Parliaments accross Spain have this legal way of passing laws too .


    I don't want you to have an heart attack, but a modification of the Bible Spanish Constitution has been done this way too . Yep, same way ... ;)



    There is only when Catalonia uses it that it seems to be a problem for you.

    Why ? :confused:



    It is something to know before shouting " they broke they own rules !!! "


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    #1910
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Thread locked for review


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    #1911
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    First of all, apologies for taking so long to review. I only had time to do so today.

    Secondly, I already posted a mod warning on this thread:
    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    @Tickers and bertie 56. If you can't have a discussion in a civil manner, I'll ban you both from posting in this thread. Stop taking swipes at each other.

    And yet the two of you are still involved an ill-tempered back and forth that's spoiling the thread for everyone else.

    From reviewing recent exchanges it seems that neither of you is willing to concede a point and move on and instead just digging deeper into minutiae and semantics.

    So, let's get two things straight.

    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. Just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't significant. If it wasn't significant, it wouldn't have caused such a fuss at the time.

    2.). The Spanish Constitutional court ruled that the referendum law was unconstitutional. That's it. Other rulings in relation to parliamentary process are kind of immaterial here.

    So let's drop both these points, move on and try an be constructive. Please bear in mind the charter which says:
    Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.

    Thanks


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    #1912
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Baron de Charlus;107312485
    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. Just because it isn't in the constitution doesn't mean it isn't significant. If it wasn't significant, it wouldn't have caused such a fuss at the time.
    It's not as simplistic as that at all.


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    #1913
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    (...)

    So, let's get two things straight.

    1.) Catalonia is a nation as per the last statue of autonomy. That means the state of Spain recognizes the Catalans are a nation. (...)

    2.). The Spanish Constitutional court ruled that the referendum law was unconstitutional. (...)


    1.) I agree with that.
    2.) I agree with that.

    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Of course, I'm aware from the beginning that the content of the law has been declared unconstitutional , we all know that from day 1 ...


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    #1914
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Another massive own goal by Spain, the politicians sentenced to 9/13 years for sedition

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49974289

    All this will do is strengthen the independence movement.


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    #1915
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Hard to tell, it's been running out of steam a good bit the last while due to rifts and infighting by the various parties to the independista coalition. Torra is nothing more than a Puigdemont puppet and the rest them are (rightly) outraged that he's sitting comfy in Brussels while their leaders are on trial (and now facing prison) for their activities.
    Was pretty obvious the rebellion charge was going to be discarded but the conviction for sedition still surprises me. I think Sánchez might have been hoping that they were found not guilty of that too but convicted on the misuse of funds charge.
    Be interesting to see what happens here the next few days. Telegram has been on fire with calls for grassroots protest and there has been some disruption at Sants train station yesterday and today but they've been struggling to muster the same level of protest and passion as they could in the aftermath of the "referendum".


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    #1916
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Hector Savage wrote: »

    All this will do is strengthen the independence movement.


    Opinion polls say the opposite.
    Independence fatigue, like Brexit.


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    #1917
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Barna77 wrote: »
    Opinion polls say the opposite.
    Independence fatigue, like Brexit.
    Yeah they got one chance at it and now they can see what the outcome would be.
    PSOE waving an olive branch at a distance is also a factor, regardless of whether Spain every gets another government!


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    #1918
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    Hard to tell, it's been running out of steam a good bit the last while due to rifts and infighting by the various parties to the independista coalition. Torra is nothing more than a Puigdemont puppet and the rest them are (rightly) outraged that he's sitting comfy in Brussels while their leaders are on trial (and now facing prison) for their activities.
    Was pretty obvious the rebellion charge was going to be discarded but the conviction for sedition still surprises me. I think Sánchez might have been hoping that they were found not guilty of that too but convicted on the misuse of funds charge.
    Be interesting to see what happens here the next few days. Telegram has been on fire with calls for grassroots protest and there has been some disruption at Sants train station yesterday and today but they've been struggling to muster the same level of protest and passion as they could in the aftermath of the "referendum".
    I think some people got swept along with the excitement of it, especially with the bravado of Puigdemont and his utter conviction it was going to happen. Demographics, in due course, will go against it and the real issue for anyone living in Catalonia has always been the money contributed through equalisation.


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    #1919
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    I'm going to leave the office early and work from home this afternoon just in case there's any serious difficulty but so far from what I'm seeing/hearing any disruption/disobedience hasn't been too significant

    There has been some chatter about calling a strike for Friday, but if they can't muster a big turnout today of all days, I think the reaction to it will be, in general, very tame.

    The Diada was barely a month ago and the numbers out and about were notably and noticeably down on previous years.

    Don't know whether it's fatigue, Junqueras/ERC's willingness to be practical or conciliatory overtones from Sanchez but people just don't seem in the mood at the minute.

    Of course, a right wing victory in November could flip that on its head in an instant.


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    #1920
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    I will work from home on Friday, just in case ...


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    #1921
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Plenty of protest and disruption going on at the minute. Maybe not quite as fatigued as I thought.

    Father in law been over with us for the last few days. Hope to god his flight home is ok!


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