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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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    #1322
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    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #1323
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    smacl wrote: »
    Whether or not the unborn foetus currently has a right to life is what this entire debate is about. You are clearly of the opinion that it does, the law as it currently stands supports that, but very many people feel that this should not be the case as it infringes the pregnant woman's human rights and hence the move to change such law. As so many have stated here already, a foetus is not a baby and repeatedly referring to it as a baby does not change that.

    they are factually wrong in the case of abortion on demand however. the state not providing abortion on demand isn't infringing anyone's human rights. there is no human right to an abortion. a foetus is an unborn baby, which will be a born baby.
    smacl wrote: »
    The litany of clerical abuses throughout recent history in this country aren't a matter of my opinion, they're a well documented fact. Subsequent unrelated charitable activity, however beneficial that might be, doesn't cancel that out. That an organisation run largely by elderly men would seek to influence and even dictate women's reproductive behaviour based on their own anachronistic moral outlook is clearly a nonsense.

    that may be what some of the catholic church are up to but the catholic church isn't the whole pro-life movement. the vast majority of the pro-life movement have no interest in dictating women's reproductive behaviour. we simply wish to insure the unborn continue to have rights, and we know the unborn having rights does not go against women's reproductive behaviour.
    smacl wrote: »
    More importantly, the upcoming referendum stands to improve the inexcusable treatment of pregnant women in this country, who for whatever reason, do not wish to continue with their pregnancy. That you find this an appalling injustice is your opinion, but it would seem likely you'll find it to be a minority one. The injustice as I see it today is that a woman cannot choose to legally have an abortion in this country. It does not mean that the woman who would make such as choice will have the baby, it just means that she will be exposed to danger and unnecessary burden to have the abortion outside of the Irish health care system purely to protect the narrow-minded morality of those who are unlikely to ever have to make such a difficult choice.


    the law is simple, you cannot legally kill the unborn within ireland unless it's in exceptional circumstances. that law is perfectly fine and nobody is treated badly because of it. the state not providing abortion outside exceptional circumstances is in no way an injustice. how single mothers and their children were treated by society was an injustice, how children abused were treated was an injustice. but the fact someone can't kill the unborn is as far from an injustice as it gets.
    the reason we have the rules we do is to protect, as much as is practical, the right of the unborn to live. it's nothing to do with narrow-minded morality.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1324
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    #1325
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
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    a fetus is a human being, an unborn and developing baby.
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    it's not one bit shameful. they wanted a non-necessary, maybe even luxury procedure which the irish state does not provide and has no reason to provide. abortion on demand is not a basic medical procedure.
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    that is a separate issue and if we were talking about legislation for that, there wouldn't be a problem, the debate would be quick and the 8th would be repealed with full support.
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    they are not shameful. if you break the law there is a chance you will be caught and suffer the consiquences. don't break the law and you won't suffer the consiquences.
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    agreed, but while the issue of abortion on demand is part of this debate via the likely hood of legislation for it, there is going to be a number of people who cannot support repeal.
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    the main 2 women who it is claimed died because of the 8th, their reports seem to suggest that the 8th had nothing to do with their deaths.
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    i have explained it but you didn't like the answer. i'm not one bit ashamed of my views. it is you who are claiming that fetuses are more important then women, the reality is they are only equal unless circumstances require that they aren't equal, such as a threat to the mother's life. sentients as we discussed already is an invalid and non-viable method to judge anything in relation to this debate, and it's a non-viable and invalid argument in this debate.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1326
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    #1327
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
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    the supposed majority belief is wrong, because where the woman's rights are being infringed by the fetus, abortion is facilitated in ireland. there is no right to have an abortion outside exceptional circumstances in ireland.
    ....... wrote: »
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    there is no tangible evidence a majority want the laws in relation to abortion changed. the 8th itself, then yes most of us want it gone, but we can't vote to allow that to happen unless there is no abortion on demand legislated for. whatever about women being second class citizens because of parts of the 8th, it's certainly not to do with the lack of provision of abortion on demand.
    ....... wrote: »
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    no the reason we have the laws is because the protection of the unborn as much as is practical is the correct thing to do. society was 100% wrong for shaming women for having sex but we don't undo that damage by killing the unborn.
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    if they favour one over the other then they are wrong, as there are plenty of ways where both can be treated equally. we effectively have it with the legislation that allows abortion in extreme circumstances. so the supposed majority are actually in the wrong.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1328
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    #1329
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
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    ireland is a civilised country by not allowing unrestricted and on demand abortion. countries that allow abortion on demand and unrestricted are less civilised as they allow the killing of the unborn without good reason.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1330
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    end of the road wrote: »
    ireland is a civilised country by not allowing unrestricted and on demand abortion. countries that allow abortion on demand and unrestricted are less civilised as they allow the killing of the unborn without good reason.

    Sweden and Denmark offer fantastic support to families and children. But they're less civilised because they allow abortion?


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    #1331
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Sweden and Denmark offer fantastic support to families and children. But they're less civilised because they allow abortion?

    yes . they allow the killing of the weakest, most vunerable in society, the unborn.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1332
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Whether or not the the foetus is a person is a philosophical matter. Neither the law or medicine has a way of establishing the truth of the matter. Your supposing they do is the product of your philosophy. An opinion in other words.

    You know what they say about opinions


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    #1333
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    The only people we should be listening to in this entire situation are the women brave enough to come forward to speak about their experiences. Our ‘sincerely held beliefs’ really have no place when put into context against actual real life experiences and tragedies women are facing.

    This is thought provoking

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/957892095108268033


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    #1334
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    The only people we should be listening to in this entire situation are the women brave enough to come forward to speak about their experiences. Our ‘sincerely held beliefs’ really have no place when put into context against actual real life experiences and tragedies women are facing.

    This is thought provoking

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/957892095108268033

    the unborn's rights do have a place however. the unborn have a right to live.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1335
    Zerbini Blewitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭Zerbini Blewitt


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Whether or not the the foetus is a person is a philosophical matter. Neither the law or medicine has a way of establishing the truth of the matter....

    Are the following philosophical matters or are they exclusively religious matters?

    1 Is a zygote a person.
    2 Is a blastocyst a person.
    3 is a natural abortion (euphemistically called a miscarriage) a person.
    4 can a person realistically qualify as a being a person without the quality of having a brain – or even a framework where a brain could reside.

    I think these are purely religious questions and certainly not philosophical questions. I would say practical philosophy (i.e. that which could be directly translatable to this upcoming referendum question) needs much more solid ground to operate around/on.


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    #1336
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn's rights do have a place however. the unborn have a right to live.

    Your like an echo chamber. Did you even read his post or watch the video before posting?


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    #1337
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Your like an echo chamber. Did you even read his post or watch the video before posting?

    i did yes. why?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1338
    Simi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Simi


    end of the road wrote: »
    i did yes. why?

    Because the 'unborn' in this case was never going to live?


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    #1339
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    i did yes. why?

    Because, as pointed out, the unborn in this case was never going to live. Obviously you just misunderstood the spirit of the video.

    It just seemed like you took an opportunity to soapbox because your reply had literally nothing to do with PP’s post or the video in the link.

    You seem to have a couple of statements that you just rant off every time you post, you post these whether they are relevant to the post you are replying to or not.

    Reminds me of being in school when you didn’t know the answer to a question on the test, so just waffled on without really answering the question and hoped for the best.


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    #1340
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    Are the following philosophical matters or are they exclusively religious matters?

    1 Is a zygote a person.
    2 Is a blastocyst a person.
    3 is a natural abortion (euphemistically called a miscarriage) a person.
    4 can a person realistically qualify as a being a person without the quality of having a brain – or even a framework where a brain could reside.

    I think these are purely religious questions and certainly not philosophical questions. I would say practical philosophy (i.e. that which could be directly translatable to this upcoming referendum question) needs much more solid ground to operate around/on.

    Does induced abortion never prevent a person from living?

    It's a simple answer; no philosophy or religion required.


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    #1341
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    Are the following philosophical matters or are they exclusively religious matters?

    1 Is a zygote a person.
    2 Is a blastocyst a person.
    3 is a natural abortion (euphemistically called a miscarriage) a person.
    4 can a person realistically qualify as a being a person without the quality of having a brain – or even a framework where a brain could reside.

    You tell me. And when you do, are you not approaching it philosophically? Do you suppose, when your position is interrogated that you will avoid your thinking being tracked by to empiricism, rationalism and the like?


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    #1342
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    Are the following philosophical matters or are they exclusively religious matters?

    1 Is a zygote a person.
    2 Is a blastocyst a person.
    3 is a natural abortion (euphemistically called a miscarriage) a person.
    4 can a person realistically qualify as a being a person without the quality of having a brain – or even a framework where a brain could reside.

    I think these are purely religious questions and certainly not philosophical questions. I would say practical philosophy (i.e. that which could be directly translatable to this upcoming referendum question) needs much more solid ground to operate around/on.
    I'd have thought they are scientific and medical questions actually.

    1 Is a zygote a person ... yes, its a new Human Being.
    2 Is a blastocyst a person ... yes, its an implanted Human Being.
    3 is a natural abortion (euphemistically called a miscarriage) a person ... yes, its a dead person.
    4 can a person realistically qualify as a being a person without the quality of having a brain – or even a framework where a brain could reside ... possibly ... but in any event, the brain starts developing very early ... at about six weeks.


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    #1343
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    smacl wrote: »
    Whether or not the unborn foetus currently has a right to life is what this entire debate is about. You are clearly of the opinion that it does, the law as it currently stands supports that, but very many people feel that this should not be the case as it infringes the pregnant woman's human rights and hence the move to change such law. As so many have stated here already, a foetus is not a baby and repeatedly referring to it as a baby does not change that.



    You seem rather confused between rights and obligations resulting from choices made here. Even the obligations you cite here aren't exactly binding, regardless of repercussions for not meeting them.



    The litany of clerical abuses throughout recent history in this country aren't a matter of my opinion, they're a well documented fact. Subsequent unrelated charitable activity, however beneficial that might be, doesn't cancel that out. That an organisation run largely by elderly men would seek to influence and even dictate women's reproductive behaviour based on their own anachronistic moral outlook is clearly a nonsense.



    More importantly, the upcoming referendum stands to improve the inexcusable treatment of pregnant women in this country, who for whatever reason, do not wish to continue with their pregnancy. That you find this an appalling injustice is your opinion, but it would seem likely you'll find it to be a minority one. The injustice as I see it today is that a woman cannot choose to legally have an abortion in this country. It does not mean that the woman who would make such as choice will have the baby, it just means that she will be exposed to danger and unnecessary burden to have the abortion outside of the Irish health care system purely to protect the narrow-minded morality of those who are unlikely to ever have to make such a difficult choice.

    Smacl, thanks for your reply etc.

    Would you be in favour of unlimited abortion, up to 9 months? If not what type of abortion would you not be prepared to endorse?


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    #1344
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    I was born in 75 to 16 year old parents and the priest wouldn’t baptise me until they were married.

    So I wasn’t a person in the churches eyes.

    But a zygote is a person?


    Wow.


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    #1345
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Because, as pointed out, the unborn in this case was never going to live. Obviously you just misunderstood the spirit of the video.

    It just seemed like you took an opportunity to soapbox because your reply had literally nothing to do with PP’s post or the video in the link.

    You seem to have a couple of statements that you just rant off every time you post, you post these whether they are relevant to the post you are replying to or not.

    Reminds me of being in school when you didn’t know the answer to a question on the test, so just waffled on without really answering the question and hoped for the best.


    i responded to a small part of david's post only, my responce was accurate in terms of the bit i wished to respond to.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1346
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    david75 wrote: »
    I was born in 75 to 16 year old parents and the priest wouldn’t baptise me until they were married.

    So I wasn’t a person in the churches eyes.

    But a zygote is a person?


    Wow.
    Two wrongs don't make a right.


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    #1347
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    J C wrote: »
    Two wrongs don't make a right.


    Nonsensical reply but within the illogical frame of it yes perhaps two wrongs can make a right and we allow women to make their own choices free of the redundant outdated interference and oppression of the church and its sheep like followers.


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    #1348
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    IF the referendum isn’t passed what have the PLC actually achieved?

    Women are going to continue to have abortions in their thousands. Just not here in Ireland.

    So the only victory is denying them and medical practioners the ability to give best care possible with FFA etc

    What kind of victory is that?

    Leaving women vulnerable to no medical care in the name of the church?

    I thiughtt it was only sharia law that forced women to be worthless. Apparently Catholicism is the same.


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    #1349
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    Nonsensical reply but within the illogical frame of it yes perhaps two wrongs can make a right and we allow women to make their own choices free of the redundant outdated interference and oppression of the church and its sheep like followers.


    women are already allowed to make their own choices, like anyone else. what they aren't allowed to do, is to kill the unborn outside extreme circumstances, which is very different to choice. one doesn't have a choice to kill born children and rightly so, so there is no requirement to be given the right or so-called choice to kill unborn children.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #1350
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,869 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    david75 wrote: »
    IF the referendum isn’t passed what have the PLC actually achieved?

    Women are going to continue to have abortions in their thousands. Just not here in Ireland.

    So the only victory is denying them and medical practioners the ability to give best care possible with FFA etc

    What kind of victory is that?

    But de babbies' blood won't be spilled on Oirish soil!


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    #1351
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,031 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    IF the referendum isn’t passed what have the PLC actually achieved?

    Women are going to continue to have abortions in their thousands. Just not here in Ireland.

    So the only victory is denying them and medical practioners the ability to give best care possible with FFA etc

    What kind of victory is that?

    Leaving women vulnerable to no medical care in the name of the church?

    I thiughtt it was only sharia law that forced women to be worthless. Apparently Catholicism is the same.

    abortions in cases of FFA could be allowed via an extension of the existing law. having people travel to procure abortions shows them that there are consiquences to the act of killing the unborn outside extreme circumstances, which will hopefully deter some from carying out the act.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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