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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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    #1652
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    The five in Belgium are there by their own choice. They can return here on the next flight if they so choose


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    #1653
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    The five in Belgium are there by their own choice. They can return here on the next flight if they so choose

    I agree with that.
    They went freely to Belgium ( the arrest order wasn't pronounced yet ) , and are free to move in whichever country of the world they want, except Spain.

    The European warrant has been lifted by Madrid , since Madrid was informed by Belgium that the charges were not strong enough to justify an arrest.
    See an interview with Puigdemont laywer here, talking about how things happened . ( I reckon it is a partial point of view, it his lawyer ! Still... )

    https://directa.cat/paul-bekaert-quan-es-tracta-de-unitat-despanya-franco-segueix-viu


    So, yes, they are free to go. President Puigdemont is planning to move out of Belgium to have a debate in Copenhagen University - Denmark on Monday, with meeting some Danish MP on the Danish Parliement on Tuesday .
    http://politicalscience.ku.dk/calendar/debate-with-carles-puigdemont/

    But ( because there is a but ....) : Madrid is now looking at emitting a new European arrest warrant , towards Denmark this time...

    So, not so " free to move "...

    And of course, he is still facing 30 years of jail in Spain if he goes back to Catalonia or Spain...
    " free to go to jail " sound strange to me, no ?


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    #1654
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The Spanish govt. are making fools of themselves by abusing the European arrest warrant system in this way. No other EU country is going to arrest a democratically elected opposition politician who is being hounded by Madrid simply for representing his electorate.


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    #1655
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    recedite wrote: »
    The Spanish govt. are making fools of themselves by abusing the European arrest warrant system in this way. No other EU country is going to arrest a democratically elected opposition politician who is being hounded by Madrid simply for representing his electorate.

    Hopefully not, but we never know...

    Spain is a big country, but despite being broke, they know where to find the money to bribe people and countries .... And some countries might be receptive at this...

    An example of it came out a couple of days ago :

    Spain silenced Latvia's support for Catalan Independence with €63M in military aid.

    Latvia's government, which had always sympathized with Catalonia's independence bid, kept quiet in exchange for Spain deploying 313 troops and 80 vehicles on the Russian border.

    This is according to Manuel García Margallo, Spain’s former Foreign Minister, who acknowledged that much a few weeks ago when he admitted, while addressing a parliamentary committee, that PM Rajoy had managed to win over Latvia’s sympathy by deploying military troops along the Russian border .

    Speaking on Spanish private TV network 13TV, Margallo even admitted to having traveled up to four times to the Baltic countries to discuss the Catalan issue. It would seem that all that traveling eventually paid off, once a quid pro quo deal was clinched.

    https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/spain-silenced-latvias-support-for-catalan-independence-with-e63m-in-military-aid/


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    #1656
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Back in Ireland, some involvements towards Catalonia appears from national politicians lately .

    After Sinn Fein and particularly Matt Carthy who , for months now , brings his great support to the Catalan people, it is the turn to Luke " Ming " Flanagan to raise questions in front of the European Parliament last Tuesday .

    Irish MEP Luke 'Ming' Flanagan has criticized the Estonian presidency of the European Union for the past six months for having "forgotten" Catalonia. In an intervention in the European Parliament during a debate on the Estonian presidency, Flanagan told Estonian Prime Minister Juri Ratas, who is "very disappointed" about Tallinn's attitude after the referendum on 1-O.

    "A very important thing happened during your presidency: a nation tried to be free, Catalonia. They made a referendum, but you made a very simple statement saying that Spain is a democratic state based on the rule of law." said the Irish MEP at Ratas.

    "Where was the rule of law when people were been beaten up in the polling stations?
    Where was the rule of law when people were bloodied ?
    Where was the rule of law when people were denied their democratic rights ? " asked Flanagan.

    The Irish MEP, from the group of the United Left in the Eurocambra, emphasized that, like the Estonians, he comes from a "small nation."
    "As someone coming from a small country, you must value the fact of being independent, in 1991 you celebrated the freedom from the Soviet Union, and you've been doing it very well since ," Flanagan told the Estonian Prime Minister. "Having celebrated your own freedom, have you forgotten others?", asked the Irish, who added: "Ireland has done weel with independence, you have been doing well for yourself, why can not you allow Catalonia to do the same, have a voice? Why have their leaders exiled ? Why not not mention it here? "

    The Estonian Prime Minister did not answer the questions about Catalonia during his turn of replies to the debate, but he applauded the intervention of the MEP, as can be seen in the video broadcast by the European Parliament.


    Video here : https://twitter.com/lukeming/status/953342619379290119


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    #1657
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    The day after ( last Wednesday ), it was the turn of Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to express himself about Catalonia in front of the European Parliament.


    " The Prime Minister of Ireland, Leo Varadkar, has urged the Spanish president, Mariano Rajoy, to open dialogue with the next government of Catalonia. “I think the only solution is dialogue, and I hope the central government in Madrid will engage in dialogue with the new government in Catalonia,” he said in Strasbourg at the plenary session of the European Parliament.


    Article in English with video here :
    http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/irish-prime-minister-calls-on-madrid-to-open-dialogue-with-next-catalan-government

    And today , MaryLouMcDonald wears a yellow ribbon on her 1st speech since elected Sinn Féin President.
    The yellow ribbon is worn to support Catalan politicians and civic society people who are in preventive jail by Spain for supporting independence , some for 79 days, others for 96 days now...


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    #1658
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    The day after ( last Wednesday ), it was the turn of Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to express himself about Catalonia in front of the European Parliament.


    " The Prime Minister of Ireland, Leo Varadkar, has urged the Spanish president, Mariano Rajoy, to open dialogue with the next government of Catalonia. “I think the only solution is dialogue, and I hope the central government in Madrid will engage in dialogue with the new government in Catalonia,” he said in Strasbourg at the plenary session of the European Parliament.


    Article in English with video here :
    http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/irish-prime-minister-calls-on-madrid-to-open-dialogue-with-next-catalan-government

    And today , MaryLouMcDonald wears a yellow ribbon on her 1st speech since elected Sinn Féin President.
    The yellow ribbon is worn to support Catalan politicians and civic society people who are in preventive jail by Spain for supporting independence , some for 79 days, others for 96 days now...

    When SF, Mary Lou, Luke Ming and Nigel Farage are supporting your cause, I would be looking in the mirror and asking myself "are we ones who are wrong?"


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    #1659
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    When SF, Mary Lou, Luke Ming and Nigel Farage are supporting your cause, I would be looking in the mirror and asking myself "are we ones who are wrong?"

    In my opinion, a political idea can't be wrong.( except nazi-type ones... )

    You can have a different point of view than your neighbor, and call him " wrong " , but don't forget that himself is calling you " wrong " too. So who is right ? :confused:

    That doesn't apply to facts, though...:rolleyes:

    I saw that you deliberately excluded Leo Varadkar from the list.
    It is true, he hasn't recognize Catalonia as an independent country last year.

    He is now calling for " Madrid to engage a dialogue with the new government in Catalonia " .
    Just two quick things about that :
    - It is traditional that the King meets the new President of the Parliament freshly elected. Answer from the King to the new President of Parliament : " NO ! "

    - The new President of the Parliament asked today to meet with Rajoy to start a dialogue . Answer from Madrid a couple of hours later : " NO ! "
    :o
    One answer to that absence of support from the European parties in power could be explain by the vast amount of pressure put by Spain to foreign countries.
    That is the way it works ( see my previous post, for ex, about Latvia ) .
    I could develop this in another post . ( the text send by Madrid to foreign countries after the DUI is a gem for this )
    Just one example from this afternoon : Professor Christian F. Rosbøll from the University of Copenhagen where was organize the conference with Puigdemont admits today : "we have received a lot of pressure to cancel this event”.
    That is the way it works...Add to this some economic pressure...( Spain is a big country in Europe )
    And now that I'm here, fresh news :
    President of the Catalan Parliament,Roger Torrent, officially nominates Puigdemont as a candidate to be President of Catalonia.


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    #1660
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    When SF, Mary Lou, Luke Ming and Nigel Farage are supporting your cause, I would be looking in the mirror and asking myself "are we ones who are wrong?"
    Its true that these are the sort of people who can often be found challenging the status quo.
    But the status quo is not always right; like when Brussels adopts a position that is deaf to the democratic rights of EU citizens.


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    #1661
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    recedite wrote: »
    Its true that these are the sort of people who can often be found challenging the status quo.
    But the status quo is not always right; like when Brussels adopts a position that is deaf to the democratic rights of EU citizens.

    Or when a minority of people try to create a new country without a democratic majority or legal authority of the institutions and people they claim to represent.


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    #1662
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    In my opinion, a political idea can't be wrong.( except nazi-type ones... )

    You can have a different point of view than your neighbor, and call him " wrong " , but don't forget that himself is calling you " wrong " too. So who is right ? :confused:

    That doesn't apply to facts, though...:rolleyes:


    But you and others on here have refused to accept the facts i.e. that the "referendum" on Oct 1st was illegal.

    You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.


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    #1663
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    In my opinion, a political idea can't be wrong.( except nazi-type ones... )

    So you accept the idea that Catalonia being part of Spain is "not wrong"?


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    #1664
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    One answer to that absence of support from the European parties in power could be explain by the vast amount of pressure put by Spain to foreign countries.
    That is the way it works ( see my previous post, for ex, about Latvia ) .
    I could develop this in another post . ( the text send by Madrid to foreign countries after the DUI is a gem for this )
    Just one example from this afternoon : Professor Christian F. Rosbøll from the University of Copenhagen where was organize the conference with Puigdemont admits today : "we have received a lot of pressure to cancel this event”.
    That is the way it works...Add to this some economic pressure...( Spain is a big country in Europe )

    The reason they don't support you is because they don't agree with you, because you held an illegal, undemocratic election without the minimum democratic processes and then used the results of that election to make a UDI. Spain does not need to exert any pressure on other states because they already have their support. Anyway, Spain does not have that type of diplomatic clout. Latvia is a small country like Ireland, there support of lack of has no consequence. The international community does not agree with you or your methods.


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    #1665
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Just two quick things about that :
    - It is traditional that the King meets the new President of the Parliament freshly elected. Answer from the King to the new President of Parliament : " NO ! "

    - The new President of the Parliament asked today to meet with Rajoy to start a dialogue . Answer from Madrid a couple of hours later : " NO ! "
    :o
    And now that I'm here, fresh news :
    President of the Catalan Parliament,Roger Torrent, officially nominates Puigdemont as a candidate to be President of Catalonia.

    Just to clarify, has anyone been elected President of the Generalitat?


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    #1666
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Or when a minority of people try to create a new country without a democratic majority or legal authority of the institutions and people they claim to represent.

    We went through this up and down with clear explanations of minority / majority , legal requirements in Spain and legal requirements in Catalonia.
    Unless new facts are brought , I find it useless to go over this again.
    It will be more interesting to move on the new developments that happens now in Catalonia , in my humble opinion.
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    But you and others on here have refused to accept the facts i.e. that the "referendum" on Oct 1st was illegal.
    .

    No.
    I said already few times in this thread that the referendum was illegal under the Spanish Laws.
    It is not illegal under the Catalan laws . And it is fully legit knowing that 80% of the Catalan population are in favor of it, and elected in 2015 a Parliament where a vast majority of his members were in favor of a referendum.
    And it is still fully legit now with the new Parliament elected last December where a vast
    majority of his members are in favor of a referendum too ( CatComú included ).
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    So you accept the idea that Catalonia being part of Spain is "not wrong"?

    As said previously, the idea is not " wrong " per se . I don't share it, that's all.
    But you are untitled to have this idea and defend it yourself .
    The same way , the majority of Catalan people have the right to have the idea that a referendum is good for their country.
    What is wrong is to defend the opposite idea with bribes, threads , jail and strong violence( moral and physical ) .
    As Madrid is doing now...
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The reason they don't support you is because they don't agree with you, because you held an illegal, undemocratic election without the minimum democratic processes and then used the results of that election to make a UDI..

    I don't know what you are talking about.. Elections ???
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Just to clarify, has anyone been elected President of the Generalitat?

    Not yet, there is no precise date for it, but probably at the end of this month.
    Before that , Roger Torrent, the new President of the Parliament wants to visit the 3 elected MPs, political prisoners who are in preventive jail in Spain for 81 days for some and 98 days for others.
    He wants as well to meet the 5 elected MPs ( President Puigdemont is one of them ) who are in Brussels.

    But this doesn't prevent to start the talks.
    It is incomprehensible that the King refuses to meet Roger Torrent.
    As it is unbelievable that Rajoy refuses to meet him and start again the dialogue.

    It is time now for Madrid to start again making politics , which is promote dialogue, listening to the other, and negotiate.
    Doing the opposite only brings tensions and extremism from both sides .

    Last thing for those interested, the full conference of Puigdemont is available on Youtube. for exemple :
    Directo: Conferencia de Carles Puigdemont desde Copenhague - from La Vanguardia
    Conference made in English .
    A good way to inform yourself with first-hand information about the Catalan independentist movement point of view.
    Worth a visit !


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    #1667
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    We went through this up and down with clear explanations of minority / majority , legal requirements in Spain and legal requirements in Catalonia.
    Unless new facts are brought , I find it useless to go over this again.
    It will be more interesting to move on the new developments that happens now in Catalonia , in my humble opinion.

    The referendum was unconstitutional and also broke Catalan statutes of autonomy i.e. Article 56 that requires a 2/3 majority on any legislation to hold a referendum on Catalan independence. This is a fact that has been repeated over and over that you refuse to accept.

    Even if the referendum was legal under local laws (which it isn't) the constitution takes precedent. The only reason you have a Generalitat is because the constitution allows it to exist.


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    #1668
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    As said previously, the idea is not " wrong " per se . I don't share it, that's all.
    But you are untitled to have this idea and defend it yourself .
    The same way , the majority of Catalan people have the right to have the idea that a referendum is good for their country.

    So you accept that idea of Spanish unity but at the same time you refuse to give those people who are in favour of that idea any say or vote in your illegal elections when you used the illegal referendum results on Oct 1st to declare independence.

    Catalans have the right and the means to hold a referendum on independence but they require a 2/3 majority as per the Article 56 of the statutes. Not by making demands and attempted coups and then fleeing to another country when your plan fails.

    As your professor explained in the article you provided, the means to Catalan independence exists within the Spanish constitution. Puidgemont and his colleagues chose to step outside of the rule and hold an illegal referendum and make a UDI. Even they weren't naive to the fact that what they did was illegal because they fled Spain before the arrest warrant was issued. He tried to call a bluff, it failed and now he is in hiding crying about how his rights are being trampled but he had no problem trampling all over the rights of the citizens of Catalonia when he made his UDI and attempted to force people to live in his new country even though he no legal or democratic authority.


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    #1669
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The referendum was unconstitutional and also broke Catalan statutes of autonomy i.e. Article 56 that requires a 2/3 majority on any legislation to hold a referendum on Catalan independence. This is a fact that has been repeated over and over that you refuse to accept.

    Even if the referendum was legal under local laws (which it isn't) the constitution takes precedent. The only reason you have a Generalitat is because the constitution allows it to exist.

    So far, I haven't saw a bit of prove from your part showing me that, a part of a link from the English translation of the Catalan statutes of autonomy -1979 , which, anyway, was outdated ! ... :rolleyes:

    The myth of the 2/3 requirements comes from a badly translated article of El Pais , followed by one of the F.T which took back this argument without checking it .
    It has been debunked since ( that was last year ! ...)
    Even the more furious unionists in Spain don't have this argument ...
    Even the Constitutional Court of Spain doesn't have this argument...

    From my part, I've posted plenty of links proving the opposite....

    That is about all I can do, to be honest....

    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    So you accept that idea of Spanish unity but at the same time you refuse to give those people who are in favour of that idea any say or vote in your illegal elections when you used the illegal referendum results on Oct 1st to declare independence.

    Catalans have the right and the means to hold a referendum on independence but they require a 2/3 majority as per the Article 56 of the statutes. Not by making demands and attempted coups and then fleeing to another country when your plan fails.

    As your professor explained in the article you provided, the means to Catalan independence exists within the Spanish constitution.

    " Illegal elections " ???

    Really, I think that to have a debate about the current situation in Catalonia, one has to get some significant information beforehand.
    Without going back to centuries, at least some historical knowledge about what happens in Spain and Catalonia in the last 70 years .
    To know what was the 2005 Draft of the Catalonia Statute of Autonomy . What was in it, what become of it . That is key to understand the present.
    To know what was the 2014 Catalonia self-determination referendum and what was in it .
    To have a bit of knowledge about Spanish and Catalan politics, culture, etc... ( the way Spain did deal with Basque Country in the past , the long lasting anti-catalan racism , the still present Franco's shadow , etc... for ex ).
    To know the state of the press in Spain and Catalonia, and the way justice "works " ...

    Without that, one will still be mixing up " election" with " referendum ", " national law " with " regional law " , etc, etc....

    And if one doesn't get this, he surely won't get what Republic the Catalan wants to build :
    " Someday you will understand that we have no problem with Spain or with your flag. The battle is against who exercises despotic power . Democracy is more important than all borders, all flags and all constitutions"
    See video :
    https://twitter.com/KRLS/status/955781533834645505


    And if one doesn't get this neither , he surely won't get what the Catalan society is :
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105515891&postcount=1458



    Anyway, great to see today some growing support from Denmark ( press, civils , academics and MPs) , after the conference/debate of President Puigdemont in their homeland.
    Hope this will be followed by more conferences around Europe ( Ireland next ? )


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    #1670
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Well here it is in Catalan if you prefer...
    El sistema electoral és de representació proporcional i ha d’assegurar
    la representació adequada de totes les zones del territori de
    Catalunya. L’Administració electoral és independent i garanteix la
    transparència i l’objectivitat del procés electoral. El règim electoral és
    regulat per una llei del Parlament aprovada en una votació final sobre
    el conjunt del text per majoria de dues terceres parts dels diputats.

    Loosely translated as

    "the electoral system is regulated by a law of Parliament passed in a final vote on the text set by a majority of two thirds of the deputies."

    https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf
    bertie 56 wrote: »
    So far, I haven't saw a bit of prove from your part showing me that, a part of a link from the English translation of the Catalan statutes of autonomy -1979 , which, anyway, was outdated ! ... :rolleyes:

    The myth of the 2/3 requirements comes from a badly translated article of El Pais , followed by one of the F.T which took back this argument without checking it .
    It has been debunked since ( that was last year ! ...)
    Even the more furious unionists in Spain don't have this argument ...
    Even the Constitutional Court of Spain doesn't have this argument...

    From my part, I've posted plenty of links proving the opposite....

    That is about all I can do, to be honest....




    " Illegal elections " ???

    Really, I think that to have a debate about the current situation in Catalonia, one has to get some significant information beforehand.
    Without going back to centuries, at least some historical knowledge about what happens in Spain and Catalonia in the last 70 years .
    To know what was the 2005 Draft of the Catalonia Statute of Autonomy . What was in it, what become of it . That is key to understand the present.
    To know what was the 2014 Catalonia self-determination referendum and what was in it .
    To have a bit of knowledge about Spanish and Catalan politics, culture, etc... ( the way Spain did deal with Basque Country in the past , the long lasting anti-catalan racism , the still present Franco's shadow , etc... for ex ).
    To know the state of the press in Spain and Catalonia, and the way justice "works " ...

    Without that, one will still be mixing up " election" with " referendum ", " national law " with " regional law " , etc, etc....

    And if one doesn't get this, he surely won't get what Republic the Catalan wants to build :
    " Someday you will understand that we have no problem with Spain or with your flag. The battle is against who exercises despotic power . Democracy is more important than all borders, all flags and all constitutions"
    See video :
    https://twitter.com/KRLS/status/955781533834645505


    And if one doesn't get this neither , he surely won't get what the Catalan society is :
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105515891&postcount=1458

    Anyway, great to see today some growing support from Denmark ( press, civils , academics and MPs) , after the conference/debate of President Puigdemont in their homeland.
    Hope this will be followed by more conferences around Europe ( Ireland next ? )

    It's been posted here numerous times, here it is for you once again, the 2016 edition from your own Catalan Parliamentary website which you have been given links to already but you'll probably choose to ignore this and say that there is no evidence to back up the requirement for a 2/3 majority, that El Pais is wrong, that the translation is bad but yet all you can come up with is pro Catalan website links, memes and copy pastes.

    https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf
    El sistema electoral és de representació proporcional i ha d’assegurar
    la representació adequada de totes les zones del territori de
    Catalunya. L’Administració electoral és independent i garanteix la
    transparència i l’objectivitat del procés electoral. El règim electoral és
    regulat per una llei del Parlament aprovada en una votació final sobre
    el conjunt del text per majoria de dues terceres parts dels diputats.


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    #1671
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    It's been posted here numerous times, here it is for you once again, the 2016 edition from your own Catalan Parliamentary website which you have been given links to already but you'll probably choose to ignore this and say that there is no evidence to back up the requirement for a 2/3 majority, that El Pais is wrong, that the translation is bad but yet all you can come up with is pro Catalan website links, memes and copy pastes.

    https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf

    To put a final nail in the coffin :

    About the Estatut d'Autonomia de Catalunya - 2006 : it's me who post you the link to find it : in this post :rolleyes:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

    And the article about the 2/3 is the 56.2

    This 56.2 article has been , with others , suspended and therefore is not applicable since the 6/09/17.

    The referendum was the 1/10/2017.


    So I maintain, once again, Catalonia didn't broke their own Parliamentary procedures to hold the referendum ...


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    #1672
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    bertie 56 wrote: »

    This 56.2 article has been , with others , suspended and therefore is not applicable since the 6/09/17.

    The referendum was the 1/10/2017.


    So I maintain, once again, Catalonia didn't broke their own Parliamentary procedures to hold the referendum ...

    So if the relevant article was suspended under what procedures were the new rules to create a referendum created ?


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    #1673
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    To put a final nail in the coffin :

    About the Estatut d'Autonomia de Catalunya - 2006 : it's me who post you the link to find it : in this post :rolleyes:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105569328&postcount=1532

    And the article about the 2/3 is the 56.2

    This 56.2 article has been , with others , suspended and therefore is not applicable since the 6/09/17.

    The referendum was the 1/10/2017.


    So I maintain, once again, Catalonia didn't broke their own Parliamentary procedures to hold the referendum ...
    marienbad wrote: »
    So if the relevant article was suspended under what procedures were the new rules to create a referendum created ?

    Exactly, once again @bertie_56 is being disingenuous with the truth and facts. The independence parties tried to suspend this article because they knew they would never have the required majority, so they attempted to pass a bill which said that they only required a simple majority of > 50% to hold a referendum on independence. The problem for them was that in order to pass that bill they also needed a 2/3 majority. But staying true to form they wouldn't let legalities get in the way so they attempted to pass the bill with a simple majority which is why we saw half of the parliament walk out in protest and which ultimately led to the situation we are in today.

    In terms of the procedures to hold a referendum? There were none! Puidgemont and his coalition partners handed the organising of the referendum over to a group of pro independence volunteers to organise the vote which had zero oversight and no democratic processes.

    1. They ordered the ballot boxes from a company in China from Alibaba.com
    2. When the ballot boxes arrived they kept them in their homes until the day before the election when they occupied the polling stations by sleeping in them!!!
    3. The ballot boxes we opaque and not transparent
    4. They picked when and where the polling stations would be and when they would be held
    5. No official census, and the census that was used was hosted on online servers
    6. A few minutes after the vote began the Catalan Government changed the rules by setting up a Universal census so that anyone who wanted to vote could do
    so at any polling station. This allowed the same person to vote two or more times
    7. No envelopes. These are normally used to ensure that only one ballot is in one envelope. No envelopes meant that one voter could stuff multiple votes into a
    ballot box
    8. Online voting. The regional government setup a Wordpress blog so that anyone unable to vote in person could do so online until 11.59pm
    9. No voter register. At polling stations voter ID and names were written down rather than being checked off a list
    10. In numerous constituencies more people voted then there were people who actually lived in those areas.
    11. There were no international guarantees

    From start for finish the whole thing is a farce but independence advocates are still maintaining that this was a legitimate referendum and a mandate for independence.


  • Options
    #1674
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    marienbad wrote: »
    So if the relevant article was suspended under what procedures were the new rules to create a referendum created ?

    Quickly because I don't have time :

    " Llei del referèndum d'autodeterminació de Catalunya " , voted at the majority of the Parliement : 72 for , 0 ( zero ) against, 11 abstentions.


  • Options
    #1675
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,488 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Exactly, once again @bertie_56 is being disingenuous with the truth and facts.

    Mod note:

    Please be civil. There is no need to personalise the debate.


  • Options
    #1676
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Exactly, once again @bertie_56 is being disingenuous with the truth and facts. The independence parties tried to suspend this article because they knew they would never have the required majority, so they attempted to pass a bill which said that they only required a simple majority of > 50% to hold a referendum on independence. The problem for them was that in order to pass that bill they also needed a 2/3 majority. But staying true to form they wouldn't let legalities get in the way so they attempted to pass the bill with a simple majority which is why we saw half of the parliament walk out in protest and which ultimately led to the situation we are in today.

    In terms of the procedures to hold a referendum? There were none! Puidgemont and his coalition partners handed the organising of the referendum over to a group of pro independence volunteers to organise the vote which had zero oversight and no democratic processes.

    1. They ordered the ballot boxes from a company in China from Alibaba.com
    2. When the ballot boxes arrived they kept them in their homes until the day before the election when they occupied the polling stations by sleeping in them!!!
    3. The ballot boxes we opaque and not transparent
    4. They picked when and where the polling stations would be and when they would be held
    5. No official census, and the census that was used was hosted on online servers
    6. A few minutes after the vote began the Catalan Government changed the rules by setting up a Universal census so that anyone who wanted to vote could do
    so at any polling station. This allowed the same person to vote two or more times
    7. No envelopes. These are normally used to ensure that only one ballot is in one envelope. No envelopes meant that one voter could stuff multiple votes into a
    ballot box
    8. Online voting. The regional government setup a Wordpress blog so that anyone unable to vote in person could do so online until 11.59pm
    9. No voter register. At polling stations voter ID and names were written down rather than being checked off a list
    10. In numerous constituencies more people voted then there were people who actually lived in those areas.
    11. There were no international guarantees

    From start for finish the whole thing is a farce but independence advocates are still maintaining that this was a legitimate referendum and a mandate for independence.


    The intellectual honesty would ask one to post the link of the source, instead of copy and paste it ( unless being the author of the article ).
    This is more important even when only what suits is copied.
    The full article is here :
    https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506858911_482600.html

    That said, and without saying that everything is wrong in this article, is El Pais a paper someone could trust to get proper information about Catalonia ?
    I let people judging by themselves:

    "Two full pages of lies ..."

    The 12 of November 17 , "El País" published on the cover this headline: "One week watching only TV3 " ( Catalan Public television ) . Inside, on two full pages, an extensive critical article about TV3 and its news.

    Few weeks later, "El País" is condemned to publish a correction for a critical article on TV3 , both in their online page and the paper ... Two full pages of correction...
    A judge from Barcelona considers that the newspaper used inaccurate data for an article . This, according to TV3, damaged the image of the Catalan public television.

    Link of the article is here ( in Catalan )
    http://www.ccma.cat/premsa/la-justicia-condemna-el-pais-a-publicar-la-rectificacio-que-li-exigeix-tv3-per-larticle-una-semana-en-la-burbuja-de-tv3/nota-de-premsa/2830997/

    That is just one of a multiple example regarding El Pais - ABC - La Razon . And I don't talk about OK Diario !!! :p


    On the referendum and the legitimacy of the results :

    1st of October : Number of people who voted " Yes " to the Republic at the referendum : 2.044.038 ( data non-recognized )
    21st December : Number of people who voted for a political party that says " Yes " to the Republic : 2.079.340 ( data recognized )

    That is 35.000 more people. Thirty five Thousands more when the number is recognized ...

    So, Alibaba , opaque boxes , etc.... I don't think that is at all relevant to deny the results ...

    It can be called " a farce ",but whichever side you take it, the strong numbers are there, recognize or not recognized ... That is a fact.

    Since we are talking about this referundum day , for those interested by what is now a piece of history of Catalonia , a good resume of this day can be seen here.
    The Sky News team (non-aligned ) has publish a " Behind-the-scenes " coverage of the referundum day:( 10 minutes, in English )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_gOkzyLWWc


    Today the new elected President of Parliament Torrent went to Brussels visiting President Puigdemont.:)

    During this time, the Guardia Civil is exploring the sewers around the Parliament building in Barcelona, to try to prevent by any ways possible the presence of Puigdemont the day of the investiture , 31st of January .:D

    Yesterday , the spanish politico-judicial blackmail marked a point. The jailed Catalan minister Joaquim Forn has giving up his post as MP in order to leave prison, some hours after Spanish Prosecutor asked judge to keep him behind bars .
    He entered in preventive jail 83 days ago... Amnesty International did asked for his immediate liberation . :o

    All is said there about the Spanish level of democracy ...


  • Options
    #1677
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    The intellectual honesty would ask one to post the link of the source, instead of copy and paste it ( unless being the author of the article ).
    This is more important even when only what suits is copied.
    The full article is here :
    https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506858911_482600.html

    That said, and without saying that everything is wrong in this article, is El Pais a paper someone could trust to get proper information about Catalonia ?
    I let people judging by themselves:

    "Two full pages of lies ..."

    The 12 of November 17 , "El País" published on the cover this headline: "One week watching only TV3 " ( Catalan Public television ) . Inside, on two full pages, an extensive critical article about TV3 and its news.

    Few weeks later, "El País" is condemned to publish a correction for a critical article on TV3 , both in their online page and the paper ... Two full pages of correction...
    A judge from Barcelona considers that the newspaper used inaccurate data for an article . This, according to TV3, damaged the image of the Catalan public television.

    Link of the article is here ( in Catalan )
    http://www.ccma.cat/premsa/la-justicia-condemna-el-pais-a-publicar-la-rectificacio-que-li-exigeix-tv3-per-larticle-una-semana-en-la-burbuja-de-tv3/nota-de-premsa/2830997/

    That is just one of a multiple example regarding El Pais - ABC - La Razon . And I don't talk about OK Diario !!! :p


    On the referendum and the legitimacy of the results :

    1st of October : Number of people who voted " Yes " to the Republic at the referendum : 2.044.038 ( data non-recognized )
    21st December : Number of people who voted for a political party that says " Yes " to the Republic : 2.079.340 ( data recognized )

    That is 35.000 more people. Thirty five Thousands more when the number is recognized ...

    So, Alibaba , opaque boxes , etc.... I don't think that is at all relevant to deny the results ...

    It can be called " a farce ",but whichever side you take it, the strong numbers are there, recognize or not recognized ... That is a fact.

    Since we are talking about this referundum day , for those interested by what is now a piece of history of Catalonia , a good resume of this day can be seen here.
    The Sky News team (non-aligned ) has publish a " Behind-the-scenes " coverage of the referundum day:( 10 minutes, in English )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_gOkzyLWWc


    Today the new elected President of Parliament Torrent went to Brussels visiting President Puigdemont.:)

    During this time, the Guardia Civil is exploring the sewers around the Parliament building in Barcelona, to try to prevent by any ways possible the presence of Puigdemont the day of the investiture , 31st of January .:D

    Yesterday , the spanish politico-judicial blackmail marked a point. The jailed Catalan minister Joaquim Forn has giving up his post as MP in order to leave prison, some hours after Spanish Prosecutor asked judge to keep him behind bars .
    He entered in preventive jail 83 days ago... Amnesty International did asked for his immediate liberation . :o

    All is said there about the Spanish level of democracy ...

    So what part of those facts do you have a problem with? Just because you don't like the publication does not mean that they are not reporting the facts. I can't believe at this point you are still citing the referendum results as being legitimate when it was an illegal referendum which you seem unable to accept.

    If anything, the last election has proved that the majority of people are against independence. If there was a independence referendum tomorrow , it would lose.


  • Options
    #1678
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    So what part of those facts do you have a problem with? Just because you don't like the publication does not mean that they are not reporting the facts. I can't believe at this point you are still citing the referendum results as being legitimate when it was an illegal referendum which you seem unable to accept.

    If anything, the last election has proved that the majority of people are against independence. If there was a independence referendum tomorrow , it would lose.

    It's not that " I don't like the publication " . It's that they have been caught red-handed lying ! Fake news ! Fake facts ! And not for the first time !

    Talking about been caught red-handed, a quick one from this week :
    Fransisco Pérez de los Cobos, the former president of Spain's Constitutional Court ( ie : Mister big head who is warrantor of the Spanish Constitution , not a small judge ) apply to be judge at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ( not a small court , and a kind of important one ! )
    Send his CV saying he is "good" in English, "very good " in French.
    Got an interview in English and French, understood nothing and ask " Could you ask me in Spanish ? " :confused::confused::confused:

    Got his note : 0 out of 10 :D

    A President of the Constitutional Court ! Caught red-handed lying ... Classy:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    This without saying that he is a PP member, and was heavily supported by M.Rajoy for getting the job ( would have been handy to have a friend at this job, when my political prisonners are coming to EU to complain... ) , with a " not so clean " past .
    Well, the usual when you are at this level , sadly...
    His brother ( extreme right , participate in the Tejero coup d'Etat in 1981, classy too ! ) is a colonel of the Guardia Civil , and was “technical director” during the Catalan referendum ( truncheon side )

    https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/spain-s-former-top-judge-fails-the-language-exam-for-new-european-role_231387_102.html

    https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/colonel-perez-cobos-prosecuted-torture-eta_194727_102.html .


    One by one, what I think of your list :

    1 - Irrelevant . Are the Irish ballot boxes " Made in Ireland " ?
    This Chinese company provides other countries like Lithuania or Australia with ballot boxes ( ARA source ) . Something wrong with that ?And yep, sadly now, everything " plastic " come from China...
    2 - Irrelevant . Are you sure they slept in the ballot boxes ? I doubt it, they were kind of small ... Anyway, proud to see this commitment to defend their own rights and own ideas. An example for democracy, so it is...
    3 - Irrelevant . Opaque/ transparent ...Could have been better transparent, it is true . Now if you prove me that they had a double bottom, or have been filled beforehand ( like the C's envelopes the 21 of Dec :D ) , alright....
    4 - I don't get this one, sorry.
    5 - Wrong . There was a census ( and you say it in the next line ) and an official one ( it wasn't the Yellow Pages ! )
    6 - Wrong, that was done 45 minutes before , not after .They decided that you could vote in one place or the other. This is due to different facts : not everybody got the information where to vote ( websites shut ) , and some polling stations would be raided by police. But that doesn't mean you could vote systematically few times. You could vote at different places, but only once.
    7 - Irrelevant. They vote this way in the Parliament as well .
    My explanation is : I suppose it was hard enough for them to provide the ballot ( thousands seized before the day ) , to have this problem of envelopes to deal with . Plus the cost : Spain blocked the finances of Catalonia few weeks prior the referendum. Anyway, don't take the people for " tontos " neither, you see if you put 1 or 5 ballots in the box... If not, you won't see neither if you put 1 or 5 envelopes !
    8 - Wrong . Wordpress blog lasted only few minutes before being shut down by the police ...
    9 - Wrong, and exceptionally right . It has happened, it's true, due to the Internet shutdown and "overload " of servers. Cross-checked with the census has been done afterwards .
    10 - Irrelevant. That is normal ( see 6 ) . That doesn't mean they voted more than once each.
    11 - Wrong / Right . They were some international observers present in the place. Not as would have required a normal vote , I reckon ( same as the 21st dec elections, by the way... :rolleyes:)

    I saw a picture of a guy voting twice. Hard to say if it was exactly the same person, his head was blur. And hard to say if it wasn't a staged situation . It might have happen , I don't know. All I can say is that I haven't seen a clear video of the same person voting twice. ( That doesn't say it doesn't exist ) .
    I saw as well one video of a guy trying to vote twice and got denied. But this could have be staged as well .

    The video I saw about people voting in the street was a demonstration, they weren't voting for real. As in the images of the SkyNews team I previously posted.
    ( Now, I haven't seen all the Youtube videos neither ! :D )

    The number of the voters are anyway not 100 /100 sure . It was a bit hectic . Some ballots disappear with the police anyway. Some people didn't go voting when they got the news that the police was firing rubber-bullets and kicking the old ladies ( from the " yes " and from the " No ", both sides ... )
    So, of course, there is an uncertainty on the exact amount of voters. For the " Yes " and for the " No" , both sides ...

    But I don't see how they could have add 1, 2 or 500.000 voters for the " yes " when you see the results of the elections of the 21 dec, with 35.000 " yes " voters more !
    Mathematically, it simply doesn't make sense ...


    For those with a " nerd " tendency, an interesting conference about censorship during the referendum can be seen here : a bit of history , a bit of politics, a lot of " ICANN , cloudflare, Https and TLS ( I didn't get everything of this part :D )

    Internet censorship in the Catalan referendum
    Overview of how the state censored and how it got circumvented .

    https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9028-internet_censorship_in_the_catalan_referendum#t=977

    in English.


  • Options
    #1679
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    If anything, the last election has proved that the majority of people are against independence. If there was a independence referendum tomorrow , it would lose.


    There is no need to spread fake information. It just add discredit to the cause you are defending.

    The only official and recognized numbers we have is from the last month elections.

    If you want to use these numbers as a reference for a referendum, it will give you :
    Yes : 2.079.340
    No : 1.902.061
    Blank : 326.360

    Blank being CatComú . It's the way they did their campaign , and the way they are voting now in the Parliament.
    Ada Colau, mayor of Barcelona ( from this political current ) , did vote blank at the last referendum, for example.


    So , based on these official numbers, the " yes " to the independence win.


  • Options
    #1680
    EagererBeaver
    Registered Users Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    But that's utter bollocks. Voting for a pro independence party in a parliamentary election is not a plebiscite on independence. It can give you an indication and an approximation, yes, but converting it to actual numbers? Bull****


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  • Options
    #1681
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    EagererBeaver wrote: »
    But that's utter bollocks. Voting for a pro independence party in a parliamentary election is not a plebiscite on independence. It can give you an indication and an approximation, yes, but converting it to actual numbers? Bull****

    ( No need to be aggressive ) .
    If you read carefully what I wrote : " If you want to use these numbers as a reference " , " based on these numbers "
    I haven't said " these are the today's numbers ".
    The problem we have is that , in absence of a proper referendum, we do with what we have.
    Yes, it is a " tendency " , and nothing else. I was clear on that one.
    Have a nice day. ;)


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