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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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  • Options
    #1532
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »

    Also notice when someone like me, posts an indisputable fact like that the Catalan Statutes of Autonomy can only be changed by a two thirds majority. Taken from the economist which @bertie_56 has cited himself to try and prove a point https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21724960-prime-minister-mariano-rajoy-says-vote-illegal-and-vows-block-it-catalonia-plans



    You can also have a look at article 56 of the statute here. Yet @berti_56 reaction is to completely ignore that statement and to go off to a troll farm website that is used by a bunch of pro independence activists and post memes, and copy and paste numbers and articles from all over the internet to give the impression that there is merit to what they are posting when it's just alot of noise that is completely irrelevant.


    About the " 2/3 majority " , I have already explain you dozens of times that it is not what is required to have a legal referendum.

    I have show you proves of that multiples times . You choose to ignore them.


    The only arguments you have posted since the beginning are 2 lines from an English Economy newspaper and a broken link of an automatic translation of an outdated text of law...

    Let's be serious : you base your argument on the Statute of Catalonia of 1979 when the one currently in place is from 2006 ( with later amendments)...:rolleyes:

    I think a discussion at this point is just ridiculous ...

    Boards.ie deserves better than that, I think ...

    I'm off with you about this subject from now on .


    I'll post soon a English explanation about the legal requirements for a referendum in Catalonia for the ones interested . ( when I find it in my mess ! )

    (The last version of the Estatut d’Autonomia de Catalunya can be found at this adress : https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf


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    #1533
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    New poll today, from El National ( Catalan )

    Independantists would get the absolute majority .

    Independentists parties : 67 to 72 seats
    Unionists : 56 to 60 seats


    436303.jpg


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    #1534
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    About the " 2/3 majority " , I have already explain you dozens of times that it is not what is required to have a legal referendum.

    I have show you proves of that multiples times . You choose to ignore them.


    The only arguments you have posted since the beginning are 2 lines from an English Economy newspaper and a broken link of an automatic translation of an outdated text of law...

    Let's be serious : you base your argument on the Statute of Catalonia of 1979 when the one currently in place is from 2006 ( with later amendments)...:rolleyes:

    I think a discussion at this point is just ridiculous ...

    Boards.ie deserves better than that, I think ...

    I'm off with you about this subject from now on .


    I'll post soon a English explanation about the legal requirements for a referendum in Catalonia for the ones interested . ( when I find it in my mess ! )

    (The last version of the Estatut d’Autonomia de Catalunya can be found at this adress : https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf

    Well here it is in Catalan if you prefer...
    El sistema electoral és de representació proporcional i ha d’assegurar
    la representació adequada de totes les zones del territori de
    Catalunya. L’Administració electoral és independent i garanteix la
    transparència i l’objectivitat del procés electoral. El règim electoral és
    regulat per una llei del Parlament aprovada en una votació final sobre
    el conjunt del text per majoria de dues terceres parts dels diputats.

    Loosely translated as

    "the electoral system is regulated by a law of Parliament passed in a final vote on the text set by a majority of two thirds of the deputies."

    https://www.parlament.cat/document/cataleg/48089.pdf


  • Options
    #1535
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    La Vanguardia's conclusion from a flurry of polls - C's may get most votes, but Esquerra most seats, and Podemos may hold the balance of power:

    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171215/433639199550/elecciones-cataluna-21d-sondeos-erc-cs-empate.html


  • Options
    #1536
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Second poll today, from ElPeriodico ( Spanish )


    Independentists parties : 66 to 69 seats
    Unionists : 56 to 59 seats

    436305.jpg


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    #1537
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Hi folks,
    Please make sure you reader the charter very carefully. Low quality posts including oneliners, memes/gifs etc., link dumps, and personal remarks aren't permitted.

    Thanks


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    #1538
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Interesting find ! :)

    Some articles from the New York Daily Times ( ancestor of the New York Times ) were already talking about Catalonia " spirit of independence ", more than 160 years ago.

    Interesting proves ( if needed ...) that the current movement for independence is old, and not " recently man-made " like heard sometimes...

    Other pieces of the same papers are dated 1882, 1886,1917 and 1933 .


  • Options
    #1539
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Dublin City Hall will fly the Catalonia flag for a month .

    In a message dated from yesterday , Cllr. Tina MacVeigh explain the position of the City Council on the matter :

    " We have just agreed at Dublin City Council to fly the regional flag of Catalonia in solidarity with the human and democratic rights of the Catalan people that we believe have been grossly violated since the day of the referendum on October 1st.
    To be absolutely clear, we are not taking a position on nationalism or independence.
    We are saying that we are horrified at the notion that a European state can throw its weight around in an attempt to beat people into submission. Innocent unarmed people who came out to exercise that most basic of democratic rights, the right to vote.
    We are horrified that a group of parliamentarians and civil society leaders have been thrown into jail and are being held without trial.
    We are saying that we are disgusted by the position taken by our government and the European Union on this.
    We are saying that we stand on the right side of human rights, on the right side of democracy and I for one am very proud that it is that which our city stands for.
    We are saying that if we don't take this stand, this could happen on any street in any state within the European Union. "

    Fair play to Dublin City Council !

    436333.jpg


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    #1540
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    As if Dublin city council has nothing better to do

    I read yesterday that people in Catalonia are pretty much sick of the procés?


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    #1541
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    Dublin City Hall will fly the Catalonia flag for a month .

    In a message dated from yesterday , Cllr. Tina MacVeigh explain the position of the City Council on the matter :

    " We have just agreed at Dublin City Council to fly the regional flag of Catalonia in solidarity with the human and democratic rights of the Catalan people that we believe have been grossly violated since the day of the referendum on October 1st.
    To be absolutely clear, we are not taking a position on nationalism or independence.
    We are saying that we are horrified at the notion that a European state can throw its weight around in an attempt to beat people into submission. Innocent unarmed people who came out to exercise that most basic of democratic rights, the right to vote.
    We are horrified that a group of parliamentarians and civil society leaders have been thrown into jail and are being held without trial.
    We are saying that we are disgusted by the position taken by our government and the European Union on this.
    We are saying that we stand on the right side of human rights, on the right side of democracy and I for one am very proud that it is that which our city stands for.
    We are saying that if we don't take this stand, this could happen on any street in any state within the European Union. "

    Fair play to Dublin City Council !

    436333.jpg

    An absolute disgrace!!!! The only flag that should above city hall Is the Irish Flag! Catalan, Spanish or otherwise it is an absolute disgrace and local councillors who voted in favour of this should hang their heads in shame.


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    #1542
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    I'm extremely annoyed that Dublin City Council seem to be involving themselves in this myself. They seem to be quite ignorant of the facts. I hold them in contempt. Particularly as there are serious matters that require their attention in this city. They are a disgrace.


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    #1543
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    The polling moratorium begins today, with five days seeming excessive by any standards:

    http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171216/433643810796/elecciones-cataluna-encuestas-ciego-21d.html

    Of course, what happens in all Spanish and Catalan elections is that El Periodico continues publishing daily polls anyway, through their sister paper in Andorra.


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    #1544
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Barna77 wrote: »
    As if Dublin city council has nothing better to do

    I read yesterday that people in Catalonia are pretty much sick of the procés?

    Yes, Dublin city council surely have plenty to do.
    Now, I don't think the motion took a week neither to pass. I think they are clever enough to allow themselves time to treat the current local affairs...

    And it's nothing revolutionary neither : they will fly the official flag of Catalonia( Senyera ), the one that is recognized by Spain.
    And for the ones that are talking about the Irish flag , they don't have to worry neither : there is more than one flag pole around ! :D
    ( actually, there is one guy that is in charge of flags in the City Council . See interesting article here :)
    https://dublin.ie/living/articles/the-vexillologist/

    And yes, it doesn't surprised me that people there are fed up of all this.

    On example , just to tell how ridiculous the situation is :

    The City Council of Prat , a town in Catalonia, put online a video for kids, about the coming of the " Reis d'Orient " , the equivalent of our Santa Claus .
    The video is here :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRbTy5T8k90&feature=youtu.be

    Following that, the PP ( main party of Spain, small minority in Catalonia ) put a complain to the Electoral Board , criticizing the " ideological charge " of the video, and complaining about " ideological fanaticism " and " children indoctrination "


    Talking about " being quite ignorant of the facts" , that is what is happening today in Catalonia .

    As said Cllr. Tina MacVeigh :
    " We are saying that if we don't take this stand, this could happen on any street in any state within the European Union. "

    So I don't know what other people might think, but in my part, if one day this happens to an election in Ireland, I'll be happy to see that a flag supporting my rights is flown in the Barcelona City Council . Or Madrid, or whatever...

    And seeing it with another angle, Dublin City Council is defending the right of the Dublin people to be able to vote freely without pressure .
    That means the right for the people who don't share their ideas to kick them out of their seats !

    So, in a way, whatever ideas you have about Catalonia, they are defending your rights .


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    #1545
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Little change in the first "illegal" poll:

    Pro-independence: 66-69 seats, 45.7% (ERC 34-35, JxC 25-26, CUP 7-8)

    Pro-Spain: 56-59 seats, 43.9% (C's 27-28, PSC 23-24, PP 6-7)

    CeC: 9-10 seats, 8.5%

    http://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/primer-sondeo-elecciones-catalanas-21d.html


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    #1546
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    The National is also publishing Catalan surveys daily until polling day:

    http://thenational.scot/news/15777408.Stunning_Catalan_poll_predicts_majority_for_pro_independence_parties/


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    #1547
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    bertie 56 wrote: »

    And seeing it with another angle, Dublin City Council is defending the right of the Dublin people to be able to vote freely without pressure .
    That means the right for the people who don't share their ideas to kick them out of their seats !

    So, in a way, whatever ideas you have about Catalonia, they are defending your rights .

    Maybe the people of Dublin should be able to vote for a mayor in the first place, instead of the actual system.


  • Options
    #1548
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    Little change in the first "illegal" poll:

    Pro-independence: 66-69 seats, 45.7% (ERC 34-35, JxC 25-26, CUP 7-8)

    Pro-Spain: 56-59 seats, 43.9% (C's 27-28, PSC 23-24, PP 6-7)

    CeC: 9-10 seats, 8.5%

    http://sondeos.elperiodic.ad/primer-sondeo-elecciones-catalanas-21d.html

    This is going to be as tight as ...( complete according to your taste ):P

    Catalunya en Comu will probably be the " the referee " in all this.

    Albano Dante Fachin, general secretary of Podemos Catalunya until a month ago, did send a message yesterday appealing for an independentist vote.

    Despite not being independentist himself, he reckon that a Catalunya en Comu vote could prevent the independentist side to have a majority , and therefore giving full power to the " Rajoy side " ( the 155 team : PP, PSC and C's )

    During this time, PSC ( unionist " socialists " ) keeps teasing the moderate independentist voters , with their motto : " no DUI, no 155 ".

    But Catalan people are not stupid and knows perfectly that his party nationally was walking hand and hand with the PP and helped in the 155 application. :rolleyes:


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    #1549
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Happy to see that the PP ( far-far right ) is now backing what the independentists never stop saying :

    1) Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría ,from the PP, Spain's vice president and ( with the coup d'Etat ) head of the Generalitat of Catalonia , recognises that prison and exile of Catalan leaders has been forced by her government.
    In a public meeting, she declared :

    "Who has achieved that , today, ERC and PDECat and the rest of the independentist movement have no leaders because they have been beheaded ? Mariano Rajoy and the Partido Popular . "

    Good to have the confirmation that the jailing and exile of the independentists was a political decision, and not a judicial one !

    2) In a document from the local PP in Catalonia, they are now talking about " presos politicos " ( political prisoners in English ) .
    Good to know that as well ...

    ;)


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    #1550
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Barna77 wrote: »
    Well North Catalonia is part of the masterplan of the "Paisos Catalans".
    Wouldn't ERC, Cup, Junts for whatever they are called now be happy to reclaim them too, and why not Valencia, Mallorca and East Aragon too? :pac:

    Source, please? Say, why don't you keep to topic and cut the mischievous posts?
    Barna77 wrote: »
    What I don't know is why the Val d'Aran don't want the independence .

    Why don't you ask the people of Val d'Aran? You make it sound like you support Aranese independence.


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    #1551
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    feargale wrote: »
    Source, please? Say, why don't you keep to topic and cut the mischievous posts?

    http://cup.cat/participa
    Map
    feargale wrote: »
    Why don't you ask the people of Val d'Aran? You make it sound like you support Aranese independence.
    Right I'll pick up the phone and call some random person over there and ask.
    Mine, was an honest doubt. All I know is that the Vd'A would rather stay in Spain and not in a hypothetic independent Catalonia. Why they think so? I don't know.


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    #1552
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    New poll today from El Periodic d'Andorra.
    No much changes ...

    436410.jpg



    More interesting, the following one is about " who would you prefer to have for next president ? "

    Puigdemont, in exile after been kicked out of his seat with the Spanish " coup d'Etat ", arrive first .
    The second is Junqueras, in preventive jail without trial.
    Basically, Catalan people seem to choose to put back the sacked Government , considering it as legitimate.

    436413.jpg


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    #1553
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Barna77 wrote: »
    http://cup.cat/participa
    Map


    Right I'll pick up the phone and call some random person over there and ask.
    Mine, was an honest doubt. All I know is that the Vd'A would rather stay in Spain and not in a hypothetic independent Catalonia. Why they think so? I don't know.

    It's true that the area had the lowest turnout during the referendum, but even during the three-day "Catalan Republic", the chairman of the local council denied that they had any plans to hold their own, pro-Spain, vote.


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    #1554
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Meanwhile, the "ban" has forced online election accounts to become rather "fruity" with their metaphors:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/electo_mania/status/942429574662623232


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    #1555
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    I don't know what the Aran people wants to do of their future, but if they want to decide by themselves , they better vote independentist !

    The Val d'Aran has a special regime, with the law no 1/2015 of the 05/02/2015, within the Autonomous Community of Catalonia.

    This law says that " « El Parlament de Catalunya reconeix el dret del poble aranès a decidir el seu futur. », which means " the Catalonia Parliament recognize the right of the people of Val d'Aran to decide for their future."

    Something that, within Spain, as retrograde as they are, is impossible .:rolleyes:


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    #1556
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    Thank you for clarifying that

    So could they vote to leave Catalonia?


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    #1557
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Barna77 wrote: »
    Thank you for clarifying that

    So could they vote to leave Catalonia?

    Yes, they have their own Valley Council, which would organise such a vote.


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    #1558
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Barna77 wrote: »
    Thank you for clarifying that

    So could they vote to leave Catalonia?

    In 1313, James II of Aragon granted administrative and political autonomy to the Aran Valley.This situation was supressed in 1834.
    In 1990 the autonomy of Aran was restored by the Parliament of Catalonia, as well the establishment of the Occitan as official language. In 2015 the powers of Aranese institutions were increased.

    So, would you care to guess who would be more likely to accede to the independence of Aran if it chose that course, Madrid or Barcelona?
    Barna77 wrote: »
    Mine, was an honest doubt. All I know is that the Vd'A would rather stay in Spain and not in a hypothetic independent Catalonia. Why they think so? I don't know.

    Say, why don't you wait until the situation arises? Your "honest doubt" may be resolved by then.


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    #1559
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    The vote has started yesterday morning for the Catalan people living abroad.

    As warned , some irregularities are already spotted.

    All around the world, the necessary papers to vote hasn't reach yet the voters.

    It is the case here in Ireland with few friends , despite them being fully registered in the embassy.
    They don't even have the possibility to go to the embassy to vote, it will be useless without the papers...:eek:

    We know that around 70% of the voters are of independentists ideas, and count for around 3,5 % of the total voters ( 200.000 voters !!! )
    The papers come from the Spain embassies, which mean the central Government.:rolleyes:

    In an election like this one, so important for the future of Catalonia, and with a so tight estimation, that is pretty worrying.

    As worrying, the " lucky " ones that will be able to vote are not sure that their vote will be counted properly.
    According to this article, it seems like the way it works, there is plenty of time and ways to alter the content of the ballot boxes, before they reach the counting place.
    http://catalannews.com/politics/item/catalans-overseas-move-to-ensure-their-votes-are-counted

    Knowing the corruption level of Spain, and the corruption stories of the company that will count the votes ( see https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105539513&postcount=1475 ) , and knowing that international observers has been banned , we can hardly talk about " a full democratic election " .:mad:

    A good article about ballot fraud in the Catalan elections can be found here :
    http://gentiumlaw.com/news/ballot-fraud-catalan-elections-happen/


    It comes from Englishman Matthew Parish , ex UN peacemaker, international lawyer based in Geneva .

    His conclusions are :

    " The international community must watch the elections on 21 December 2017. The people of Catalonia need to watch those elections as well. There are sufficient grounds for concern. Madrid has effectively annexed Catalonia and abolished its regional government. Therefore Madrid is responsible for the conduct of the Catalan elections.
    There are reasons to be concerned that those elections may not be entirely free and fair. To the extent that they are not, the participation of Indra Systems indicates that any irregularities may lean in favour of Partido Popular and its proxy parties. Everyone must be vigilant. Everyone must vote, no matter how arduous or inconvenient. Rule of law and democracy go hand in hand. If one is jeopardised, then the other will surely suffer the same fate."


  • Options
    #1560
    Barna77
    Registered Users Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭Barna77


    feargale wrote: »
    Say, why don't you wait until the situation arises? Your "honest doubt" may be resolved by then.

    I read weeks ago on a Spanish newspaper how there in the VdA were opposed to the independence. And I thought why would a part of Catalonia, up there in the mountains, and given that anywhere outside the Barcelona metro area pro independence are the majority, so why wouldn't they want independence.
    And that's the root of my doubt.
    Period


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    #1561
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Today's pool from The national.scot for the snap elections imposed by Madrid :

    Independents : 67 to 71 seats
    Unionists : 54 to 60 seats

    436510.jpg



    A tight election, but no worries, everything is under control ...
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=436511&stc=1&d=1513603618


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