Question of speed camera van operation legality on private property

beercr8te · 12-05-2017 6:11pm #1

Just a quick question, would be interested in any thoughts on this, If a speed camera van was on private property and also obstructing an entrance to that property during the time they were enforcing speed limits, do they need the land owners permission to park on that property for any prosecution to be legal? If they do need permission, does the act of committing trespass invalidate any prosecutions resulting from evidence taken during the time of trespassing? I will be asking a solicitor at some point but interested if anybody here has had any experience in this situation.

bladespin · 12-05-2017 6:31pm

From what I've read the answer is no, there's another thread about gosafes parked illegally.

GM228 · 12-05-2017 6:32pm

Describe the situation a bit more such as how the van gains access, where exactly it is parked, can the public generally access the location with vehicles etc.

When you say private property I assume this is private property which is a public place.

GM228 · 12-05-2017 6:34pm

bladespin wrote: »

From what I've read the answer is no, there's another thread about gosafes parked illegally.

GoSafe vans can't park "illegally" when in operation as they are exempt from Traffic and Parking Regulations.

beercr8te · 12-05-2017 11:20pm

GM228 wrote: »

Describe the situation a bit more such as how the van gains access, where exactly it is parked, can the public generally access the location with vehicles etc.

When you say private property I assume this is private property which is a public place.

The van was parked off the main road in the entrance of a field, the gate to the field is recessed from the outer walls like this \___/, van was inside area outside of gate. The dirt road is to allow a vehicle to park while entering field without obstructing traffic,van was parked on the entrance way or dirt road parallel to gate, the van was obstructing access to gate, but there is no barrier to prevent you going on dirt road outside gate. The van also was only to be seen at the last second upon passing in a car. From what I know from land owner is he owns the land that the dirt road is on, it's only big enough for a vehicle to fit off road facing gate, it would have taken some effort to park van across dirt road, which is also after a blind corner on the road.

bladespin · 12-05-2017 11:37pm

GM228 wrote:

GoSafe vans can't park "illegally" when in operation as they are exempt from Traffic and Parking Regulations.

Blocking access to a private entrance, not sure how 'legal' that would be, even acting under the exemption but I doubt it would void the penalty.

SBPhoto · 13-05-2017 10:39am

The owner of the property can ask the Gosafe van to move, happened near me and the owner then put up a sign, no parking, private property.
never seen the Gosafe van there since, it was also in a reduced 60km zone

GM228 · 13-05-2017 11:24am

beercr8te wrote: »

The van was parked off the main road in the entrance of a field, the gate to the field is recessed from the outer walls like this \___/, van was inside area outside of gate. The dirt road is to allow a vehicle to park while entering field without obstructing traffic,van was parked on the entrance way or dirt road parallel to gate, the van was obstructing access to gate, but there is no barrier to prevent you going on dirt road outside gate.

So the van was parked outside the gate on the public side of the private land - i.e in a public place.

Forget what the dirt road is for, once the public can access it (no barrier, implied rights etc) then it's a public place for the purposes of road traffic law irrespective of weather it's a public road or private land.

coylemj · 13-05-2017 11:29am

OP, try this for size.... Garda car is in the entrance to a field like you describe, they observe a car doing a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre on bend with a continuous white line, causing oncoming cars to swerve to avoid a collision. They prosecute the driver for dangerous driving and his solicitor stands up in court, says the Gardai were trespassing on private property and therefore their evidence is inadmissible.

Speeding (s.47 RTA) and dangerous driving (s.53 RTA) are offences in the same category in the criminal canon so what's good for one will be good for the other. Do you seriously think that in the case above, the judge would accept that submission?

GM228 · 13-05-2017 11:32am

bladespin wrote: »

Blocking access to a private entrance, not sure how 'legal' that would be, even acting under the exemption but I doubt it would void the penalty.

Blocking access or egress to a premises without the owners permission is illegal, but GoSafe are exempt.

bladespin · 13-05-2017 11:45am

GM228 wrote:

but GoSafe are exempt.

They have no exemption, the exemption applies to the gardai only who can instruct gosafe and therefore exempt them but I doubt the gardai would permit gs to park in such a manner.

Elemonator · 13-05-2017 12:09pm

This belongs in the Legal Discussion forum.

And everyone else needs to read of the law on trespass also.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 12:32pm

bladespin wrote: »

They have no exemption, the exemption applies to the gardai only who can instruct gosafe and therefore exempt them but I doubt the gardai would permit gs to park in such a manner.

Yes they do, GoSafe were specifically exempted in 2016 under the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 following a recommendation by the Attorney General as there was ambiguity under their old exemption under S87 (1)(b) of the Road Traffic Act 2010.

beercr8te · 13-05-2017 12:42pm

Thanks lads, I appreciate the reply's, I'll seek final clarification with a solicitor.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 12:47pm

Elemonator wrote: »

This belongs in the Legal Discussion forum.

And everyone else needs to read of the law on trespass also.

Trespass does not come into play in this situation:-

1. The speed van has not entered the private land beyond which is a public place, they are outside the gate - in a public place.

2. The little known exception to trespass - you can't be a trespasser if you are on lands by virtue of an express or implied term in a contract - the term being to provide a speed check under the direction of GSOC at a specific location.

3. You can't be a trespasser if you are present as of right. Lack of a gate/an open gate, notice or other means to prevent access is generally taken by the courts to provide an implied right of access.

Some of us are aware the law concerning trespass

Elemonator · 13-05-2017 12:59pm

GM228 wrote: »

Trespass does not come into play in this situation:-

1. The speed van has not entered the private land beyond which is a public place, they are outside the gate - in a public place.

2. The little known exception to trespass - you can't be a trespasser if you are on lands by virtue of an express or implied term in a contract - the term being to provide a speed check under the direction of GSOC at a specific location.

3. You can't be a trespasser if you are present as of right. Lack of a gate/an open gate, notice or other means to prevent access is generally taken by the courts to provide an implied right of access.

Some of us are aware the law concerning trespass

I know. I was referencing the OP's opening post. My suggestion was to read into it to see where it doesn't apply.

SBPhoto · 13-05-2017 1:02pm

GM228 wrote: »

Blocking access or egress to a premises without the owners permission is illegal, but GoSafe are exempt.

Not True

CeilingFly · 13-05-2017 1:04pm

GM228 wrote: »

Blocking access or egress to a premises without the owners permission is illegal, but GoSafe are exempt.

Its a field, not a premises.

Op says it near a bend, so Op was speeding near a blind bend and got caught.

Op can spend a couple of hundred on a solicitor, take a day off work for court appearance, give the cock and bull story and leave court with 5 points and €400 fine.

Or pay the €80, take the 3 points and be more careful.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 1:08pm

SBPhoto wrote: »

Not True

What part exactly?

beercr8te · 13-05-2017 1:23pm

coylemj wrote: »

OP, try this for size.... Garda car is in the entrance to a field like you describe, they observe a car doing a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre on bend with a continuous white line, causing oncoming cars to swerve to avoid a collision. They prosecute the driver for dangerous driving and his solicitor stands up in court, says the Gardai were trespassing on private property and therefore their evidence is inadmissible.

Speeding (s.47 RTA) and dangerous driving (s.53 RTA) are offences in the same category in the criminal canon so what's good for one will be good for the other. Do you seriously think that in the case above, the judge would accept that submission?

Judges have thrown out evidence from camera vans and dismissed cases.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 1:35pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Its a field, not a premises.

Have a look at the Occupiers' Liability Act 1995 which has in the past been referenced to by the courts when dealing with the definition of premises when trying to define premises for the RTAs.

“premises” includes land, water and any fixed or moveable structures thereon and also includes vessels, vehicles, trains, aircraft and other means of transport

bucketybuck · 13-05-2017 1:40pm

beercr8te wrote: »

was on private property and also obstructing an entrance to that property during the time they were enforcing speed limits

Translation: The van was parked beside the gate into a field.

bladespin · 13-05-2017 2:02pm

beercr8te wrote:

Judges have thrown out evidence from camera vans and dismissed cases.

Wasn't that more to do with procedural errors? Paperwork incorrectly filed etc.

beercr8te · 13-05-2017 2:48pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Its a field, not a premises.

Op says it near a bend, so Op was speeding near a blind bend and got caught.

Op can spend a couple of hundred on a solicitor, take a day off work for court appearance, give the cock and bull story and leave court with 5 points and €400 fine.

Or pay the €80, take the 3 points and be more careful.

I'll find out on Monday where I stand with a solicitors advice, if I can get this dismissed with my "cock and bull story" I'll do so, whether I'm guilty or not is irrelevant, the problem is too many people do not challenge if they have grounds to do so, if I don't have a leg to stand on I'll pay the 80 euro and take the points. If a person can get off with something I say go for it, it will be worth every cent in legal fees.

jameshayes · 14-05-2017 12:55am

beercr8te wrote: »

I'll find out on Monday where I stand with a solicitors advice, if I can get this dismissed with my "cock and bull story" I'll do so, whether I'm guilty or not is irrelevant, the problem is too many people do not challenge if they have grounds to do so, if I don't have a leg to stand on I'll pay the 80 euro and take the points. If a person can get off with something I say go for it, it will be worth every cent in legal fees.

If a person can get off with something I say go for it... I bet you didn't say that about bankers, Denis o Brian... Irish water..

snaps · 14-05-2017 6:38am

Have I missed the bit were it's confirmed that the piece of land is public (between road and gate)?

Just because it's in front of the gate it doesn't make it public. I understood from the OP that the gate is set back off the road to allow safe access.

We've got similar gate setups on my estate here, but the land in front of gate is still private. Also we have lots of land that's not surrounded by a fence or bushes, so does that make that land public?

I can't see how a gosafe van or even police can be allowed to park on whatever land they want whenever they want?

Surely if a gosafe/police vehicle was breaking the law to catch offender's that offence is surely void?
Wasn't there an example a few years backs were a stretch of motorway had Speed cameras and a reduced Speed limit but infact hadn't the correct planning permission for this, so all the offences were void?

E36Ross · 14-05-2017 12:14pm

To those saying its legal, What happens if the van is parked and the farmer wants access to his field?

Does the van have to move?

Paulw · 14-05-2017 12:25pm

snaps wrote: »

Have I missed the bit were it's confirmed that the piece of land is public (between road and gate)?

Just because it's in front of the gate it doesn't make it public. I understood from the OP that the gate is set back off the road to allow safe access.

We've got similar gate setups on my estate here, but the land in front of gate is still private. Also we have lots of land that's not surrounded by a fence or bushes, so does that make that land public?

You need to understand the legal difference between a public place, and public land.

Private land can still be a public place. A supermarket car park is private land but is also a public place.

coylemj · 14-05-2017 2:41pm

Paulw wrote: »

You need to understand the legal difference between a public place, and public land.

Private land can still be a public place. A supermarket car park is private land but is also a public place.

But poster snap's point is that just because it's an open piece of land, that doesn't mean the owner is giving you implicit permission to park there and so you are technically trespassing. Not saying that would invalidate the speeding tickets, just dealing with this narrow issue.

And it would not qualify as a public place under the RTA - that requires you to have access 'as of right or by permission', neither of which would apply to a patch of ground that's off the public road, outside the farmer's gate but still within his private property.

Paulw · 14-05-2017 7:44pm

coylemj wrote: »

But poster snap's point is that just because it's an open piece of land, that doesn't mean the owner is giving you implicit permission to park there and so you are technically trespassing. Not saying that would invalidate the speeding tickets, just dealing with this narrow issue.

But it also doesn't mean that the land owner is not giving you implicit permission to park there. It's very unclear.

If there was a sign saying "No Parking", etc, then it is clear. Otherwise, you can park there until requested to move, without breaking the law.

Nah, I seriously doubt it would invalidate a speeding ticket.

GM228 · 15-05-2017 9:48am

coylemj wrote: »

But poster snap's point is that just because it's an open piece of land, that doesn't mean the owner is giving you implicit permission to park there and so you are technically trespassing. Not saying that would invalidate the speeding tickets, just dealing with this narrow issue.

And it would not qualify as a public place under the RTA - that requires you to have access 'as of right or by permission', neither of which would apply to a patch of ground that's off the public road, outside the farmer's gate but still within his private property.

Paulw wrote: »

But it also doesn't mean that the land owner is not giving you implicit permission to park there. It's very unclear. If there was a sign saying "No Parking", etc, then it is clear. Otherwise, you can park there until requested to move, without breaking the law.

Nah, I seriously doubt it would invalidate a speeding ticket.

To be clear, yes it is a public place until notice etc is provided to withdraw an implied permission.

This has already been decided upon by our courts many times, if the public can access a piece of private land (with a vehicle) and they are outside the boundry walls or entrance gate or there is no notice, gate or employed staff employed to restrict access then private land is a public place for the purposes of the road traffic acts as it is considered implied permission of the owner - the most authorative cases on the subject are the High Court Lynch vs Lynch and New PMPA [1995] 3 IR 496 and [1996] 1 ILRM 311 cases.

Question of speed camera van operation legality on private property

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