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Rehabilitation

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  • 18-06-2019 7:15pm
    #1
    chuagain
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭


    What's the use in Rehabilitation if society still wont accept?


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    #2
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Rehabilitation for what exactly?


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    #3
    chuagain
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chuagain


    Rehabilitation in general, regardless of what anyone has done.


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    #4
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    You really dont want to do rehabilitation do you?

    The rest of us had to put on our big boy pants and drag ourselves into rehabilitation.
    We didnt do it for other people, although we had support, we did it for ourselves.
    Some of us were in car crashes, work accidents, some of us have Autism.
    But we get up and go to Rehab everyday.

    Nobody is forcing you to go to rehabilitation, that is a decision you make for you, not for them.


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    #5
    chuagain
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chuagain


    I have been rehabilitated, thats not what i was refering to. I was asking along the lines of murders and for people who have committed serious crimes under the influence.


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    #6
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Well you got me there.
    I think that person who have " who have committed serious crimes under the influence.". Should consider how their victims feel and then have a serious ponder how an owner of a business, would think how their customers would react knowing that someone who " who have committed serious crimes under the influence." is either serving them breakfast roles or managing their stock fund.


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    #7
    chuagain
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chuagain


    But whilst they are in rehabilitation and in a place of punishment they reflect on the crimes that they committed , whilst trying to rehabilitate. And the institution that they are in put all efforts into to reforming them, what im asking is what is the point in all of this if they cant come out of there and rejoin the community and what if society still wont accept ...


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    #8
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    You see when I think of rehabilitation, I think of the National rehabilitation center, the national Learning network, not Wheatfield or Arbourhill or the 'Joy. These centers are not just rehabilitation but to seperate "Them" from "Us". That is not really the same thing is it?


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    #9
    embee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,890 ✭✭✭embee


    When I hear “rehabilitation” .... there are many things you could mean by that. For me, rehab was going into the National Rehabilitation Hospital to be an inpatient for eight weeks of neurorehabilitation under the brain injury Programme. For others, it means drug rehab, for others, reintegration into society after a custodial sentence etc. what sort of rehabilitation are you referring to precisely because they’re all VERY different.


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    #10
    chuagain
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chuagain


    To seprate them from us yes, but isnt rehabilitation for unwell people, physically sick, mentally sick, however sick or people who have there lost there footings in life?


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    #11
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    chuagain wrote: »
    But whilst they are in rehabilitation and in a place of punishment they reflect on the crimes that they committed , whilst trying to rehabilitate. And the institution that they are in put all efforts into to reforming them, what im asking is what is the point in all of this if they cant come out of there and rejoin the community and what if society still wont accept ...

    I hear you and know what you mean. And agree with you

    You mean discrimination? Refusal to accept rehab/ reform? Labelling a person according to past offences rather than current condition?

    It applies to former criminals and to many with perceived mental health problems which is often a modern leprosy.

    Been there in my relative youth. Also still an attitude to illnesses like CFS/ME .


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    #12
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    chuagain wrote: »
    To seprate them from us yes, but isnt rehabilitation for unwell people, physically sick, mentally sick, however sick or people who have there lost there footings in life?

    It should be . It really should but often isn't. And that is more disabling than any illness.


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    #13
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    You see when I think of rehabilitation, I think of the National rehabilitation center, the national Learning network, not Wheatfield or Arbourhill or the 'Joy. These centers are not just rehabilitation but to seperate "Them" from "Us". That is not really the same thing is it?

    Depends on how you see rehab for prisoners or mean prison as simply punitive.

    These things can overlap.


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    #14
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Depends on how you see rehab for prisoners or mean prison as simply punitive.

    These things can overlap.

    Considering the chances of reoffending, the Irish Prison system has failed in this regard. I think prevention is better than cure. What is the worst possible bill an athletic society or sports club could send parents for a year? €200? The child is occupied and a well tendered garden doesnt allow weeds to grow. The child hits 22 and has a job/trade/college and hasnt seen drugs, they will be fine for life

    How much do we spend rehabilitating drug addicts and criminals to reoffend again? Thousands.

    Which do you think is better value for money? I believe a childs education has been determined at 7 (yes that young). I believe criminal instincts have been formed by 14 and by 22 their lives are past rehabilitation. Sorry I find the story of Les Miserables a bit far fetched for me.


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    #15
    Mark25
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Mark25


    I've thought alot about this over the past few years given my own situation.

    I think rehabilitation is important but it won't happen automatically. A person has to want to rehabilitate and know that they have to change things. They then have to have the chance to change and the support really to make it happen.

    I was pretty normal growing up and started in college but dropped out after 1st year and then "went of the rails" as they say. Nothing too bad but was drinking alot and getting into trouble. I was in court for a few different things and eventually ended up in prison for a few months. I am not sure if short prison sentence does much for rehabilitation. It ended up for me being around people who were worse than me and getting through it but that was it I wasn't there long enough for me to make any changes and it meant I had been in prison and wasn't as worried about going back as I had been through it and got through it.

    I ended up back in prison again but this time I got 2 years. It didn't hit me straight away but after a few months I knew I had to change and I wanted to. I had seen what my family had gone through with me and I was a few years older and knew I was going to be locked up for a while and was thinking of what was happening to me at the same time as old friends of mine were getting married, having kids, starting to buy houses and doing well.

    I was lucky inside as I got help with getting back to education and doing some "productive" work. I didn't do everything right and there were ups and downs on the way but was ready when I got released to move on from what got me into trouble before.

    I had the support of my family and a place to live which are 2 things that are really huge for ex prisoners getting out. I moved away from home and started college a few months later - 4 years ago - and got my degree last year. I worked when I was at college and am working at a decent enough job now.

    But it is a fact that once you have been in prison and have a criminal record society and people do judge you. I have lost a girlfriend, a job and a house share when people have found out that I have been in prison even though they knew me as the person I am now. Lucky other people have been OJ with me but it's like people always expect the worse from me because of my past.

    I am not saying that I am perfect or anything now - I have been arrested since getting out so I have reoffended but not bad enough to go back to prison. But I am a totally different person now and living a pretty normal life. I think for some people like me it is more about growing up and copping on. Not everybody wil be rehabilitated but they should be given a chance to and people shouldn't be as judgmental when they hear of a person's past


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    #16
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Mark25 wrote: »
    I've thought alot about this over the past few years given my own situation.

    I think rehabilitation is important but it won't happen automatically. A person has to want to rehabilitate and know that they have to change things. They then have to have the chance to change and the support really to make it happen.

    I was pretty normal growing up and started in college but dropped out after 1st year and then "went of the rails" as they say. Nothing too bad but was drinking alot and getting into trouble. I was in court for a few different things and eventually ended up in prison for a few months. I am not sure if short prison sentence does much for rehabilitation. It ended up for me being around people who were worse than me and getting through it but that was it I wasn't there long enough for me to make any changes and it meant I had been in prison and wasn't as worried about going back as I had been through it and got through it.

    I ended up back in prison again but this time I got 2 years. It didn't hit me straight away but after a few months I knew I had to change and I wanted to. I had seen what my family had gone through with me and I was a few years older and knew I was going to be locked up for a while and was thinking of what was happening to me at the same time as old friends of mine were getting married, having kids, starting to buy houses and doing well.

    I was lucky inside as I got help with getting back to education and doing some "productive" work. I didn't do everything right and there were ups and downs on the way but was ready when I got released to move on from what got me into trouble before.

    I had the support of my family and a place to live which are 2 things that are really huge for ex prisoners getting out. I moved away from home and started college a few months later - 4 years ago - and got my degree last year. I worked when I was at college and am working at a decent enough job now.

    But it is a fact that once you have been in prison and have a criminal record society and people do judge you. I have lost a girlfriend, a job and a house share when people have found out that I have been in prison even though they knew me as the person I am now. Lucky other people have been OJ with me but it's like people always expect the worse from me because of my past.

    I am not saying that I am perfect or anything now - I have been arrested since getting out so I have reoffended but not bad enough to go back to prison. But I am a totally different person now and living a pretty normal life. I think for some people like me it is more about growing up and copping on. Not everybody wil be rehabilitated but they should be given a chance to and people shouldn't be as judgmental when they hear of a person's past

    For this deeply moving, realistic and impressive testimony, thank you.


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    #17
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Considering the chances of reoffending, the Irish Prison system has failed in this regard. I think prevention is better than cure. What is the worst possible bill an athletic society or sports club could send parents for a year? €200? The child is occupied and a well tendered garden doesnt allow weeds to grow. The child hits 22 and has a job/trade/college and hasnt seen drugs, they will be fine for life

    How much do we spend rehabilitating drug addicts and criminals to reoffend again? Thousands.

    Which do you think is better value for money? I believe a childs education has been determined at 7 (yes that young). I believe criminal instincts have been formed by 14 and by 22 their lives are past rehabilitation. Sorry I find the story of Les Miserables a bit far fetched for me.

    How many succeed is more to the point. This is not a black/white situation.

    Also many well educated and well raised folk go astray and many are driven more astray by being judged for life on one mistake.


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    #18
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    How many succeed is more to the point. This is not a black/white situation.

    Also many well educated and well raised folk go astray and many are driven more astray by being judged for life on one mistake.

    Not many. Drug addiction is for life. There is a certain responsibility to us as a tax payer to get value for money. I never heard of a stable 35 year old man with a job, wife and career going off the rails. I am not saying they dont exist. I am saying it is much more common for school dropouts and the youths with minor drug convictions to get involved in this sort of thing.

    It is never one mistake, its a series of mistakes constantly repeated. Hanging with the wrong crowd, b class drugs and lack of formal education. Thats how they arrive there. Once they are there, there are very few and narrow ways back


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    #19
    echo beach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭echo beach


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Not many. Drug addiction is for life. There is a certain responsibility to us as a tax payer to get value for money. I never heard of a stable 35 year old man with a job, wife and career going off the rails. I am not saying they dont exist. I am saying it is much more common for school dropouts and the youths with minor drug convictions to get involved in this sort of thing.

    You might not have heard of them but yes they exist all around you. They just don’t fit the stereotype.
    There are plenty of private hospitals and clinics that treat highly paid professionals very discreetly. Addiction is for life and it is also for every social class.


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    #20
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    echo beach wrote: »
    You might not have heard of them but yes they exist all around you. They just don’t fit the stereotype.
    There are plenty of private hospitals and clinics that treat highly paid professionals very discreetly. Addiction is for life and it is also for every social class.

    Well I cant see them but I am sick of seeing the tracksuit brigade hanging around town and no intention to do anything with their lives. I am not sure they should be given a chance. I am all for random drug testing for social welfare. There is very little we can do once addict reach that stage. I see an addiction society as a legitimate lifestyle choice and it being supported by society. It is how a society collapses when open drug taking is tolerated.

    Waste of time telling addicts drugs are bad. It starts at an earlier age. If you start taking drugs more likely than not you are going to be in the grave at 30. I dont think you will an more prime examples than the pilotless ships at the end of Talbot st near Bus Aras. As someone who like to keep their stuff together as a good citizen it kind of grinds my gears to see these individuals thinking they are entitled to everything.


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    #21
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Not many. Drug addiction is for life. There is a certain responsibility to us as a tax payer to get value for money. I never heard of a stable 35 year old man with a job, wife and career going off the rails. I am not saying they dont exist. I am saying it is much more common for school dropouts and the youths with minor drug convictions to get involved in this sort of thing.

    It is never one mistake, its a series of mistakes constantly repeated. Hanging with the wrong crowd, b class drugs and lack of formal education. Thats how they arrive there. Once they are there, there are very few and narrow ways back

    Proof?


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    #22
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Proof?

    Sorry not anything concrete but when I ask for statistics from counselors I get wishhy washhy answers.

    "What percentage of your clients go from addicts to rehabilitated (Minimum living independently with at least minimum wage jobs)?". That sounds like a reasonable metric goal with a clearly defined minimum standard?.

    This is what I get back ......" rehabilitation takes a long time with moveable goals". "Everyones ideals for success is different". All that sort of crap.

    When a counsellor cost €80 an hour to the HSE dont we as taxpayers deserve a metric return?


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    #23
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    so, anecdotal?

    I was seriously addicted to wrongly prescribed benzos. I shut myself away for a year and have never touched them since.

    Many are as I am; no temptation to take addictive stuff because we know the hell of withdrawal and it IS hell. Addicts need all the support we can give them and less of the condemnation.

    Rehab is a long and painful process. any life event eg a bereavement can set the person back

    The counsellors are wise and right to speak as they do. They have a hard task and are being realisitic . and they know that drugs invade the very soul

    So no; and not everything can be seen in financial terms . Many things are incurable.


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    #24
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    so, anecdotal?

    I was seriously addicted to wrongly prescribed benzos. I shut myself away for a year and have never touched them since.

    Many are as I am; no temptation to take addictive stuff because we know the hell of withdrawal and it IS hell. Addicts need all the support we can give them and less of the condemnation.

    Rehab is a long and painful process. any life event eg a bereavement can set the person back

    The counsellors are wise and right to speak as they do. They have a hard task and are being realisitic . and they know that drugs invade the very soul

    So no; and not everything can be seen in financial terms . Many things are incurable.

    IF my lack of evidence is anecdotal, its because of the failure of the medical professionals to provide tangible numbers. The only reason you hide numbers is because they in the extremes (either high costs or low rates of success). Is it wrong to ask metric value for money? I was at a large university there a few months back. I was shown 3 sleep pods for 3 Autistic students (no one else could use them) costing €27k each for three students. If I had the same money I would spend it on "proper" diagnosis for 40 students and giving their parents a €1000 bursary for education. That is the value for money I am talking about.


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    #25
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    IF my lack of evidence is anecdotal, its because of the failure of the medical professionals to provide tangible numbers. The only reason you hide numbers is because they in the extremes (either high costs or low rates of success). Is it wrong to ask metric value for money? I was at a large university there a few months back. I was shown 3 sleep pods for 3 Autistic students (no one else could use them) costing €27k each for three students. If I had the same money I would spend it on "proper" diagnosis for 40 students and giving their parents a €1000 bursary for education. That is the value for money I am talking about.

    as you are not a medical professional?


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    #26
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    as you are not a medical professional?

    I am but not qualified in the specific area of addiction. Its not fair to compare a nuclear engineer to a small engine repair man. Once you muddy the water then you create the illusion you are trying to hide something.


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    #27
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    I am but not qualified in the specific area of addiction. Its not fair to compare a nuclear engineer to a small engine repair man. Once you muddy the water then you create the illusion you are trying to hide something.

    addiction is a very complicated condition, and far too often misunderstood which complicates it even further, especially when blaming the addict takes over.

    It is good to see a latitude being applied by counsellors. shows a deeper awareness of the issues


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    #28
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    What thoughts re rehabilitation of those who have been in prison? As in being accepted back into normal society?


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    #29
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »

    I was seriously addicted to wrongly prescribed benzos. I shut myself away for a year and have never touched them since.

    So no; and not everything can be seen in financial terms . Many things are incurable.

    There is a massive difference between medication irresponsibly prescribed and hard drugs that you are warned at every twist and turn of education. Most doctors will recklessly write you a prescription for antidepressant/sedatives just to turn over office numbers. You dont even need to be told about these drugs, just take the LUAS between 10am and 12am between Abbey Street and Heuston Station.


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    #30
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    There is a massive difference between medication irresponsibly prescribed and hard drugs that you are warned at every twist and turn of education. Most doctors will recklessly write you a prescription for antidepressant/sedatives just to turn over office numbers. You dont even need to be told about these drugs, just take the LUAS between 10am and 12am between Abbey Street and Heuston Station.

    It is still addiction; you averred addiction is blameworthy and others that it is for life.

    The physical and mental issues are the same in both cases.
    The struggle is the same. The reason I isolated myself that year was because of blame and attitudes like that and the reason for so many failing to get off drugs tends to be attitudes of condemnation. Of not being trusted or accepted.


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    #31
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    It is still addiction; you averred addiction is blameworthy and others that it is for life.

    The physical and mental issues are the same in both cases.

    Where you took medicine in good faith from doctors and pharmacists that it is of a certain quantity and quality and would benefit our bodies and or minds.

    When you deal with Decco suppling with an unregulated baggie of white powder you have know idea what you are getting. Decco doesnt care as long as you have cash. There is a significance there.

    These addictions to prescription drugs are driving a wedge of mistrust between patient and practitioner. On the other hand who knows what Dodgy Decco is going to hand you, so are you surprised.

    Yes if you willing took illegal drugs knowing what they were you must accept part of the blame. I have no time for these people. They destroyed the last neighbourhood I lived in with used syringes in a perfectly good neighbourhood.


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