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Why do some Motorway projects get priority?

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  • #32
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Transport projects in Dublin are just as important as projects elsewhere in the country.



    Actually there are far more important because they effect far more people. Nearly 50% of the population of the country live in the four Dublin Council areas. If you include those who live outside those councils but work in Dublin, then obviously the need for infrastructure in the capital is even greater.

    Dublin bus have approx 1,000 buses, two Luas lines that do not connect (yet) and no underground railway and no rail link to the airport that handled 25 million passengers last year.

    Think about that.

    If Leitrim played Longford, the entire population of both counties would not fill Croke Park.


  • #33
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Actually there are far more important because they effect far more people. Nearly 50% of the population of the country live in the four Dublin Council areas. If you include those who live outside those councils but work in Dublin, then obviously the need for infrastructure in the capital is even greater.

    Dublin bus have approx 1,000 buses, two Luas lines that do not connect (yet) and no underground railway and no rail link to the airport that handled 25 million passengers last year.

    Think about that.

    If Leitrim played Longford, the entire population of both counties would not fill Croke Park.

    25 million passengers. Not all of whom are from Dublin FYI.


  • #34
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Jayop wrote: »
    25 million passengers. Not all of whom are from Dublin FYI.
    A significant amount are tourists who would want to get around Dublin using public transport.

    A lot also travel by train around the country to Dublin to get a flight


  • #35
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,649 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The lack of infrastructure invesment since 2009 is really starting to show.

    There has been nothing done since 2009 bar Newlands X, M11 gap, M1 widening, and bypasses for Castleisland, Tralee, Ballaghaderreen and Belturbet.

    In the preceeding 7 years, we had most of the M1, M6, M7, M8, M9, M11 & M18 built, Limerick tunnel, M50 upgrade, Port Tunnel, and several major bypasses including Ballincollig, Waterford, Tullamore, Charlestown, Sligo (IRR), Ballyshannon/Bundoran etc.

    In 2009, when those projects were finished and several others underway (M7 Lim-Nen, M18 Gort-Crusheen etc.), we were still desperately needing relief for Adare, New Ross, Galway and needing the N20 built. And only one of these has since started construction, let alone be built.

    The lack of infrastructural development is going to seriously hinder the attracting of investment to all parts of Ireland. Why would a multinational set up in Galway with the current absolute state of the traffic there every morning and evening? Why would a company set up in Cork when the nearest transatlantic flights (at present) are over two hours away by car?

    This is before we even mention Dublin, with unsustainable traffic levels entering the city on all the major corridors (M1, N4, N7 & N11), and absolutely NOTHING in planning at present to sort this out.

    Sure, we can say all we want that the same is happening across the water in the UK, but it seems as if the powers that be will realise later than sooner how important this infrastructural development is, and how much it would pay off if we gave ourselves that 'edge' of people moving around at realistic speeds and not at 5km/h in Galway or 50km/h from Cork-Limerick.


  • #36
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,387 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Ah but Galway has a motorway to Dublin. Sure isn't that all that matters?


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  • #37
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deedsie wrote: »
    More like 25% live in the four Dublin council areas. 1.2 million. 4.6 million live in Ireland (Republic of)
    According to Wikipediea, who quote from the the Censun 2011:
    Dublin 1,273,069 of which:
    Fingal 273,991
    South Dublin 265,205
    Dunloghaire–Rathdown 206,261

    Total for the four Dublin Councils = 1,273,069

    Population of Ireland is 4.6 million, so 28% of the states population live in the four council areas. [Edited figures as they were incorrect]


  • #38
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Jayop wrote: »
    25 million passengers. Not all of whom are from Dublin FYI.

    The 25 million does not include staff who attend every day they work.

    25 million passengers require to go somewhere, either by public transport or by private transport (car). That is an average of 68,000 per day. Assuming that is 50% arriving and 50% departing, that is 34,000 in and 34,000 out.

    A bus takes 70 passengers. A taxi takes 4 or 5. A car takes one or two, but could take up to 4, but usually takes one. A tram could take 250, and a train 1,000. Since there is no tram or train, that is a lot of cars, coaches and buses.

    The three rail projects - DU,MN, and the Clongriffin spur would transform public transport at Dublin Airport.


  • #39
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deedsie wrote: »
    The population of Dublin City Council area is 527,612 not 1.2 million

    http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/population/populationofeachprovincecountyandcity2011/

    Add 527,612, 273,991, 265,205 & 206,261 = 1.2 million or just over 25% of the population.

    You are right - I was reading Dublin as DCC, and adding the other council areas.

    Never trust what you read on the internet. :)


  • #40
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    According to Wikipediea, who quote from the the Censun 2011:
    Dublin 1,273,069
    Fingal 273,991
    South Dublin 265,205
    Dunloghaire–Rathdown 206,261

    Total for the four Dublin Councils = 2,108,000

    Population of Ireland is 4.6 million, so 45% of the states population live in the four council areas, that is much more than 25% and is nearly 50%.

    From the actual 2011 census.

    Dublin City 527,612
    Fingal 273,991
    South Dublin 265,205
    Dunloghaire–Rathdown 206,261

    Which all add up to the 1,273,069 figure, which is 27% of the population.

    Moral of the story - never trust Wikipedia.

    EDIT - looks like my slow copy and past skills got me beaten to the punch.


  • #41
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    The European investment Bank provided €170m for Gort-Tuam. The rest is funded by the consortia Direct Route which won the PPP contract.

    Taxpayers money went into the planning stages and CPO's to get the scheme to tender which is a fraction of the overall cost


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  • #42
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    €580m for one road joining two small West of Ireland towns

    Its not taxpayers money ffs. Also its joining Limerick to Galway.

    I don't think we've had a bigger troll here since the legendary Mysterious got banned.


  • #43
    Dr_Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭Dr_Bill


    The priorities for the NRA now NTA was to connect all the major regional cities to Dublin via Motorway & that has largely been achieved, then the crash happened and the 2nd phase was put on hold which was to construct the inter-city connectors such as Cork-Limerick, Limerick-Galway etc.

    Now as the country is slowly finding its feet again the capital spending tap can be turned back on again to start looking at getting these projects going again.


  • #44
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Deedsie wrote: »
    regardless it is a tiresome argument, of course Dublin needs massive investment in infrastructure but so do other places, and to try have some bit of balance, Ireland west of the M50 requires investment alongside metropolitan development.
    The problem with this argument though is that it tends to lead to "like for like" infrastructure spending.
    You just have to look at the motorways that were built, that should never have been.
    Look at the train lines that are operating that shouldn't be.
    The €100 million that's been wasted, with little return on the WRC.
    A lot of infrastructuret that works in Dublin, won't in the rest of the country, because it just isn't viable.

    I'd actually like to see an independent infrastructure body setup that would have real powers to make these decisions, based on strict rules.
    Then what needs to be built, could be no matter where it was.


  • #45
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Dr_Bill wrote: »
    The priorities for the NRA now NTA was to connect all the major regional cities to Dublin via Motorway & that has largely been achieved, then the crash happened and the 2nd phase was put on hold which was to construct the inter-city connectors such as Cork-Limerick, Limerick-Galway etc.

    Now as the country is slowly finding its feet again the capital spending tap can be turned back on again to start looking at getting these projects going again.

    Except the nra talked about completing interurban motorways, not the roads to Dublin. If motorways to other cities from Dublin are interurban, then Cork to Galway is another interurban route.
    It's the lack of honesty by the nra ( who still are the nra, the nta is a trading name like eflow) showing here.
    There's no city at the far end of the N3, and Derry is better served on the M1, which is 5 miles from the N2 at Ardee.


  • #46
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    who still are the nra, the nta is a trading name like eflow.

    Actually the NRA doesn't exist anynore. It was merged with the RPA to create Transport Infrastructure Ireland.


  • #47
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Not in my opinion anywhere near as much as Dublin but one of Ireland's biggest exports is the Agri food export. Sustained our economy throughout the downturn, I don't think much of that industry is based in Dublin.

    Isn't North County Dublin where most of the country's potatoes are grown?


  • #48
    NedNew2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 397 ✭✭NedNew2


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Except the nra talked about completing interurban motorways, not the roads to Dublin. If motorways to other cities from Dublin are interurban, then Cork to Galway is another interurban route.
    It's the lack of honesty by the nra ( who still are the nra, the nta is a trading name like eflow) showing here.
    There's no city at the far end of the N3, and Derry is better served on the M1, which is 5 miles from the N2 at Ardee.

    What are miles? I find it hard to take any comment seriously where the poster users a measurement obsolete for many years.


  • #49
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    There's no city at the far end of the N3, and Derry is better served on the M1, which is 5 miles from the N2 at Ardee.

    Even a thread that is supposed to be proposing a new way of looking at things is full of simplistic statements. There are more people served by the N3 than the M9 and they don't have a rail link.


  • #50
    Jayuu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    So far I think this thread has been a microcosm of how infrastructure development happens in Ireland. Lots of figures thrown about some of which have no relevance to the discussion, a lot of Dublin v The Rest shouting and general disagreement on what exactly should be done and what the priorities are.


  • #51
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Actually the NRA doesn't exist anynore. It was merged with the RPA to create Transport Infrastructure Ireland.
    Are you sure?
    S.I. No. 297 of 2015 wrote:
    ROADS ACT 2015 (OPERATIONAL NAME OF NATIONAL ROADS
    AUTHORITY) ORDER 2015.
    I, PASCHAL DONOHOE, Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport in
    exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 13 of Roads Act 2015 (No.14
    of 2015), having consulted with the National Roads Authority, hereby order
    as follows:
    1. (1) This Order may be cited as the Roads Act 2015 (Operational Name of
    National Roads Authority) Order 2015.
    (2) This Order comes into operation on 1 August 2015.
    2. “Transport Infrastructure Ireland” is specified as a name by which the
    National Roads Authority may describe itself for operational purposes.


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  • #52
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    NedNew2 wrote: »
    What are miles? I find it hard to take any comment seriously where the poster users a measurement obsolete for many years.

    I find it hard to take any pedantic poster seriously, who doesn't spell check their post.

    Maybe if I restate the distance as eight kilometres, you might be able to understand.


  • #53
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Are you sure?

    From the horses mouth.

    http://www.tii.ie/about/about-tii/establishment-of-tii/

    Transport Infrastructure Ireland was established through a merger of the National Roads Authority and the Railway Procurement Agency under the Roads Act 2015, with effect from 01/08/15.


  • #54
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod:
    Can we elevate the discussion and leave pedantry behind. Most posters can translate 5 miles to 8 km, and it is common parlance to quote distances in miles when referring to approximate distances. Also, state agencies appear to change their names more often than the weather, so it is nitpicking to challenge a previous name instead of the current one (which may change before I finish posting).

    Clearly, the purpose of this thread is to allow free-form discussion as it can only be opinion based (unless a poster has inside information).


  • #55
    Bray Head
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    To the OP, projects get prioritised for many reasons and in many cases due to where the minister for transport is most interested in.

    The other major objective criteria are to keep the capital spending payments smooth and not lumpy from year to year and never to admit that you can do with less. This is why you get 'placeholder' type projects - to maybe fill a spending dip between other larger projects.

    This is how those in charge of capital expenditure like the spending to look.


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