Man given two-year sentence for fatal crash

TonyStark · 11-05-2016 10:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I work shift and do feel extremely tired after some nights driving home, I suppose I should quit my job and go on the Dole ? Or move closer to work ? well that's not possible.

Add to that a 2 year old and a 4 month old who regularly wake up at night and sometimes take hours to go back asleep or one wakes crying and wakes the other. This is life I'm afraid and we all can't avoid fatigue.

Now perhaps the man should have got more sleep that night instead of just 4 hrs, especially if it's regular as he claimed. But for me and many more people fatigue is unavoidable.

If this was a Nurse driving home, a mother also and killed someone, I bet she wouldn't get a sentence let alone a 10 year driving ban, that's just ridiculous.

I have thought about this many times, and I don't think I could pull in on the shoulder for 8 hrs kip to avoid fatigue, then I'd be home for 3 hrs and back out again. It's also dangerous to be parked on the shoulder.

My heart goes out to the Women and her baby and to their family but this sentence was in my opinion extreme not to mention the 10 year ban.

Well according to the RSA this is what you should do if feeling tired and drowsy. I don't think that anyone expects you to park up for eight hours. I don't think that a 15 minute nap is a big ask.

Stop, park in a safe place and take a nap for 15 minutes (set your mobile phone alarm). This is the most important tactic.
To really make the most of the break, take a caffeine drink before the nap (150mg of caffeine e.g. 2 cups of coffee). After the nap, the caffeine should have started to take effect.
Then get some fresh air and stretch your legs for a few minutes.
By following all of the above advice you should be able to drive for another hour or so.

I've seen another case where a guy using his mobile phone ploughed into an oncoming car killing the woman driving it. He was sentenced to 3 years and banned for 10 years. So i don't think think that this chap's sentence was especially severe.

goz83 · 11-05-2016 10:20AM

Tragic for both sides. I remember reading about this very accident and only thought about it 2 weeks ago when driving through Balbriggan. Only last night, I insisted on driving my wife into college to collect a book because she was tired and it was raining. Not a good idea to drive in that state, or in those conditions. Prayers to the lot of them.

cson · 11-05-2016 10:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

And no form of punishment at all for white collar criminals !!!!

Why do people think it's people from less well of backgrounds who commit crime ?

How about your man who went down for 7 years for fraudulently mislabelling garlic?

the.red.baron · 11-05-2016 10:54AM

cson wrote: »

How about your man who went down for 7 years for fraudulently mislabelling garlic?

While I don't agree that 2 years is harsh given he won't serve two years anyway, it's just like the garlic sentence.

The system is built to encourage appeals, more work for the boys. There is no accountability on sentencing.

Look at judge Martin Nolan.

The garlic guy was reduced to 2 years on a appeal and he served less than 1 after being released early.

almostover · 11-05-2016 10:57AM

TonyStark wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I work shift and do feel extremely tired after some nights driving home, I suppose I should quit my job and go on the Dole ? Or move closer to work ? well that's not possible.

Add to that a 2 year old and a 4 month old who regularly wake up at night and sometimes take hours to go back asleep or one wakes crying and wakes the other. This is life I'm afraid and we all can't avoid fatigue.

Now perhaps the man should have got more sleep that night instead of just 4 hrs, especially if it's regular as he claimed. But for me and many more people fatigue is unavoidable.

If this was a Nurse driving home, a mother also and killed someone, I bet she wouldn't get a sentence let alone a 10 year driving ban, that's just ridiculous.

I have thought about this many times, and I don't think I could pull in on the shoulder for 8 hrs kip to avoid fatigue, then I'd be home for 3 hrs and back out again. It's also dangerous to be parked on the shoulder.

My heart goes out to the Women and her baby and to their family but this sentence was in my opinion extreme not to mention the 10 year ban.

Well according to the RSA this is what you should do if feeling tired and drowsy. I don't think that anyone expects you to park up for eight hours. I don't think that a 15 minute nap is a big ask.
Stop, park in a safe place and take a nap for 15 minutes (set your mobile phone alarm). This is the most important tactic.

To really make the most of the break, take a caffeine drink before the nap (150mg of caffeine e.g. 2 cups of coffee). After the nap, the caffeine should have started to take effect.

Then get some fresh air and stretch your legs for a few minutes.

By following all of the above advice you should be able to drive for another hour or so.

I've seen another case where a guy using his mobile phone ploughed into an oncoming car killing the woman driving it. He was sentenced to 3 years and banned for 10 years. So i don't think think that this chap's sentence was especially severe.

There's a huge difference between using you mobile while driving and driving while tired. Driving while using a mobile is illegal and there is simply no excuse for it. You either pull over to use it or wait until you have reached you destination. Same goes for drink driving, you just don't do it. However, tiredness is impossible to quantify and people are going to have to drive while being some degree of tired at one time or another.

Case in point: Let's hypothetically say I had a young baby who is teething at present. The child wakes multiple times during the night and I have to tend to him. I have to be up at 6am for a 1hr commute to work. I go to bed at 10pm to get my 8 hours sleep. I end up getting about 4 hours sleep as the child is waking often due to the pain of teething. I'm going to be tired every morning that week operating a car on 4 hours sleep and there is nothing I can do about it other than try to go to bed earlier but I'll still be operating on reduced sleep. I have to go to work to pay my bills and earn a living, I have to drive there because I live in the countryside. Despite all this there are still no excuses for me to be on my phone while driving to work or to be under the influence of alcohol while behind the wheel. Can you see now why driving tired is so different to driving while on the phone/drunk/speeding excessively? The fact that you can't quantify tiredness like you can with blood alcohol level makes it near impossible to police and is why the sentence in this case is unduly harsh. A driving ban, compensation to the family and some community service would be more than sufficient. Jailing the man serves nobody. Perhaps if that community service was to include promoting the dangers of driving when fatigued society would be better served? I'm not excusing driving while tired by any means. if it can be avoided then by all means it should be but this isn't a black and white scenario like driving while on the phone or drink driving.

frozenfrozen · 11-05-2016 11:13AM

Maybe if the sentence was being in an awareness campaign like doing community service where he goes around and tells people he killed someone though tiredness

but to be in jail.. jail should be for rehabilitating people and keeping them away from the rest of society.. he has a driving ban so how is he a danger to society any more.. and he'll have 10 years to think about never driving tired again. And at his age he could never drive again

11-05-2016 11:48AM

almostover wrote: »

Case in point: Let's hypothetically say I had a young baby who is teething at present. The child wakes multiple times during the night and I have to tend to him. I have to be up at 6am for a 1hr commute to work. I go to bed at 10pm to get my 8 hours sleep. I end up getting about 4 hours sleep as the child is waking often due to the pain of teething. I'm going to be tired every morning that week operating a car on 4 hours sleep and there is nothing I can do about it other than try to go to bed earlier but I'll still be operating on reduced sleep. I have to go to work to pay my bills and earn a living, I have to drive there because I live in the countryside. Despite all this there are still no excuses for me to be on my phone while driving to work or to be under the influence of alcohol while behind the wheel. Can you see now why driving tired is so different to driving while on the phone/drunk/speeding excessively? The fact that you can't quantify tiredness like you can with blood alcohol level makes it near impossible to police and is why the sentence in this case is unduly harsh. A driving ban, compensation to the family and some community service would be more than sufficient. Jailing the man serves nobody. Perhaps if that community service was to include promoting the dangers of driving when fatigued society would be better served? I'm not excusing driving while tired by any means. if it can be avoided then by all means it should be but this isn't a black and white scenario like driving while on the phone or drink driving.

Exactly, and I've to work 12 hrs days/nights with a 1 hr commute each way but some people here will say, take a break, drink coffee and you'll be grand !

I got a 2 year old and a 4 month old and sometimes they both wake at night, and the 2 year old in particular has woken most nights of the week for the last 2 years !

But oh yeah , take a break, pull in, simple as that .......

Jesus. · 11-05-2016 11:52AM

almostover wrote: »

There's a huge difference between using you mobile while driving and driving while tired.

Yes. The former - in many cases - could be totally safe, the latter lethal.

almostover wrote: »

Case in point: Let's hypothetically say I had a young baby who is teething at present. The child wakes multiple times during the night and I have to tend to him. I have to be up at 6am for a 1hr commute to work. I go to bed at 10pm to get my 8 hours sleep. I end up getting about 4 hours sleep as the child is waking often due to the pain of teething. I'm going to be tired every morning that week operating a car on 4 hours sleep and there is nothing I can do about it other than try to go to bed earlier but I'll still be operating on reduced sleep. I have to go to work to pay my bills and earn a living, I have to drive there because I live in the countryside. Despite all this there are still no excuses for me to be on my phone while driving to work or to be under the influence of alcohol while behind the wheel. Can you see now why driving tired is so different to driving while on the phone/drunk/speeding excessively?

No. You're excusing your own circumstances while picking on others. Its not my fault if you have a child crying in the night. Your responsibility.

frostyjacks · 11-05-2016 12:44PM

Man has to accept responsibility for his actions. This wasn't an accident. If you knowingly get behind the wheel of a car while under the influence of drink or drugs, or simply dog-tired, then you have to accept the consequences. Two years, he'll be out in half the time to carry on with his life. Will the victim's family be over this in 12 months time? Not a hope. He should be grateful for such leniency.

Dr_Bill · 11-05-2016 01:06PM

There seems to be an underlying current on this forum that going to jail for motoring offences is unreasonable. People need to take responsibility for their actions and be prepared to accept the penalties when they commit an offence.

11-05-2016 01:23PM

TonyStark wrote: »

Well according to the RSA this is what you should do if feeling tired and drowsy. I don't think that anyone expects you to park up for eight hours. I don't think that a 15 minute nap is a big ask.
Stop, park in a safe place and take a nap for 15 minutes (set your mobile phone alarm). This is the most important tactic.

To really make the most of the break, take a caffeine drink before the nap (150mg of caffeine e.g. 2 cups of coffee). After the nap, the caffeine should have started to take effect.

Then get some fresh air and stretch your legs for a few minutes.

By following all of the above advice you should be able to drive for another hour or so.

Simple as that eah ? well when you work shifts, have a 2 year old who has woken most nights of the week for 2 years and a 4 month old usually woken by the 2 year old you think pulling in for 15 mins makes a difference ?

Next people will say, "call in sick" ! Quit work.

I've done the 15 min break thing, taken the coffee and it doesn't work when you're wrecked.

Easy to judge when you're not in the same/similar situation.

Allinall · 11-05-2016 01:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple as that eah ? well when you work shifts, have a 2 year old who has woken most nights of the week for 2 years and a 4 month old usually woken by the 2 year old you think pulling in for 15 mins makes a difference ?

Next people will say, "call in sick" ! Quit work.

I've done the 15 min break thing, taken the coffee and it doesn't work when you're wrecked.

Easy to judge when you're not in the same/similar situation.

I'd be curious to know what you think would be a suitable punishment if you were to kill someone whilst driving while "wrecked"?

almostover · 11-05-2016 01:46PM

I'm pretty tired right now. Drove 1 hour last night to attend GAA training after work, trained hard for another 1.5 hours and drove back to the city where I live. Got a decent sleep but feel tired. Are people suggesting I need to go to sleep at work before I make my way home? By all means people should go to jail for death caused by drink driving and mobile phone usage while driving but tiredness can be unavoidable. I posted a link here to the Eddie Halvey incident. the judge in that case made a terrible ruling too giving him a suspended sentence when he was clearly drunk behind the wheel, proven irrefutably by his blood alcohol level being twice the legal limit. Tiredness is a grey area though and that should have been recognized in this case.

11-05-2016 02:35PM

Dr_Bill wrote: »

There seems to be an underlying current on this forum that going to jail for motoring offences is unreasonable. People need to take responsibility for their actions and be prepared to accept the penalties when they commit an offence.

A motoring offence due to blatant disregard for your safety or the safety of others is one thing but fatigue is something that you can't always avoid and have to get on with life.

Tragedies happen but some cases are a lot worse than others, you could argue that this man could have simply got more than 4 hours of sleep, for someone woken up by a baby for hours every night and having to get up for work is unavoidable.

If every driver was to stop due to tiredness then there would be very few drivers on the road.

Question is, how many people here have driven while tired but not realise how tired they actually are !

goz83 · 11-05-2016 04:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Question is, how many people here have driven while tired but not realise how tired they actually are !

I drove Dublin to Sweden via the UK without stop offs (with the exception of food and toilet breaks) and with a friend to switch with. A fantastic drive, but by the time I reached the bridge at Copenhagen, I had driven a longer shift than I should have and I felt the tired kick in really quickly as I started to veer toward the side of the road. I pulled in immediately and had my friend drive the last hour, or two. It could have been a nasty accident had I not reacted sensibly (eventually) by waking my friend. While stopping on the bridge wasn't the safest place to be....it was a lot safer than trying to cross it myself in that state.

On the way home, I made a lot more stops and took naps where possible.

Zubeneschamali · 11-05-2016 04:32PM

On the plus side, this lad will be able to catch up with his sleep over the next year or so.

goz83 · 11-05-2016 04:54PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

On the plus side, this lad will be able to catch up with his sleep over the next year or so.

This isn't After Hours bud. Poor taste

bear1 · 11-05-2016 05:56PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

On the plus side, this lad will be able to catch up with his sleep over the next year or so.

Jesus.

kirving · 11-05-2016 06:12PM

Has anyone here, ever, woken up on the couch after not meaning to fall asleep. No doubt it's happened to everyone at some point.

It's a very devisive issue, if you knew the victim - then the driver should be punished. If you knew the driver - then it's a tiny mistake with big consequences. The truth is somewhere in between, but I think it's fair to say that putting this guy wasn't driving in a knowingly wreckless manner beforehand, and putting him in prison is not going to ensure he stays awake in future.

11-05-2016 06:27PM

All it takes is a Judge that isn't out to earn some brownie points, that will use his/her position to pass judgement based on the facts and not emotion or making an example because making and example is poor judgement in my opinion and isn't a fit sentence for the so called crime here.

If the Man had slept more then this is something within his control and was he going somewhere which was beyond his control ? then if not I would say the sentence could probably be just.

But if someone is driving to/from work and through circumstances beyond their control such as not sleeping well due to working shift or being tired from working nights , and/or have small Children that are sick or wake up several times a night or someone who is caring for an elderly relative all this is circumstances beyond control and unavoidable.

I would hope a Judge would look at the evidence to say if this was indeed beyond control or could the person really pull in and stop or would it even make a difference.

If I were to stop every time I'm very tired then I'd spend half my working life or commute on the side of the road and I bet there's many thousands in a similar position.

Jesus. · 11-05-2016 08:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

A motoring offence due to blatant disregard for your safety or the safety of others is one thing but fatigue is something that you can't always avoid and have to get on with life !

That's where the problem lies. Its the picking and choosing thing again. You drive wrecked tired because you decided to have kids or because you work shifts. I don't mind that, I used to work shifts myself. But then I wouldn't turn around and say the guy on the Mobile who could be as chirpy as a bird with 10 hours sleep should be done to hell while you (or me) because we're not sleeping as much as we should, should be exempt from ridicule.

Fact is, depending on the circumstances, a person on a phone could be a helluva lot safer than someone not on a phone but totally knackered (for whatever reason).

robtri · 11-05-2016 08:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

All it takes is a Judge that isn't out to earn some brownie points, that will use his/her position to pass judgement based on the facts and not emotion or making an example because making and example is poor judgement in my opinion and isn't a fit sentence for the so called crime here.

If the Man had slept more then this is something within his control and was he going somewhere which was beyond his control ? then if not I would say the sentence could probably be just.

But if someone is driving to/from work and through circumstances beyond their control such as not sleeping well due to working shift or being tired from working nights , and/or have small Children that are sick or wake up several times a night or someone who is caring for an elderly relative all this is circumstances beyond control and unavoidable.

I would hope a Judge would look at the evidence to say if this was indeed beyond control or could the person really pull in and stop or would it even make a difference.

If I were to stop every time I'm very tired then I'd spend half my working life or commute on the side of the road and I bet there's many thousands in a similar position.

It is not beyond the persons control...

they made a decision to continue to drive while they where not in a fit state to drive.... This is a conscious decision, completely in control of the person...

so stopping for 15/20 mins to take a nap/ fresh air walk etc... is too much of a inconvenience even if it means that by not doing this someone potentially dies(like in this case)

ohhh sorry I killed your partner....i was wrecked tired but decided to drive on regardless... sure not my fault...
ffs

11-05-2016 10:31PM

robtri wrote: »

It is not beyond the persons control...

they made a decision to continue to drive while they where not in a fit state to drive.... This is a conscious decision, completely in control of the person...

so stopping for 15/20 mins to take a nap/ fresh air walk etc... is too much of a inconvenience even if it means that by not doing this someone potentially dies(like in this case)

ohhh sorry I killed your partner....i was wrecked tired but decided to drive on regardless... sure not my fault...
ffs

In this case the man drive only having 4 hours of sleep and seemingly 4 hrs sleep is a regular occurrence so perhaps he could have made the decision not to drive further.

A shift worker driving home after night shifts is going to be tired and I can tell you now a 15 min break or longer is of no use when your body wants to shut down, taking a break after a long drive is completely different to a person working nights, 4 in a row or more. Completely different to being tired on a long drive that you might take a couple of times a year.

Man given two-year sentence for fatal crash

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