The Academies

leinstertalk · 08-04-2016 02:00PM

stephen_n wrote: »

What would you suggest? Adding another 10-15 players to the senior squad so we can retain them all?

Because the leinster backline is overflowing with young exciting talent...

I'd define the academy successfully developing a player to be developing a player for leinster who becomes 1st choice or at the very least a heavily relied upon backup, who makes a substantial impact at leinster.

John Cooney does not fit that criteria, developing starters and backups for other teams is not the primary goal of the leinster academy and it shouldn't be judged upon that criteria but rather how it does for Leinster in providing long term squad players and 1st choice starters.

And in the backline it's severely struggled this decade as I have explained.

Yeah_Right · 08-04-2016 02:47PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

fair enough but he wasn't a success for leinster, however people want to spin it.

Luke McGrath might be, if he can beat out this third string NZer.

You've used this phrase to describe JGP a few times. What does it mean? I genuinely don't understand it.

leinstertalk · 08-04-2016 03:06PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You've used this phrase to describe JGP a few times. What does it mean? I genuinely don't understand it.

He is 3rd choice 9 for the Hurricanes.

Yeah_Right · 08-04-2016 03:25PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

He is 3rd choice 9 for the Hurricanes.

You sure? I thought he was the back up to TJ Perenara. Also he started a lot of his 3 seasons at the Blues. And he has 8 appearances for the Maori. At 24 years old. I don't think there is a HB in Ireland (outside of the national squad) who would be good enough to make the NZ Maori. Constantly referring to him as 3rd string is BS to just further your agenda.

Leinster could quite conceivably get 10 years out of JGP. And Ireland could get 6 or 7. His experience from having come through NZ could be a big help to up and coming HBs here.

leinstertalk · 08-04-2016 03:30PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You sure? I thought he was the back up to TJ Perenara. Also he started a lot of his 3 seasons at the Blues. And he has 8 appearances for the Maori. At 24 years old. I don't think there is a HB in Ireland (outside of the national squad) who would be good enough to make the NZ Maori. Constantly referring to him as 3rd string is BS to just further your agenda.

Leinster could quite conceivably get 10 years out of JGP. And Ireland could get 6 or 7. His experience from having come through NZ could be a big help to up and coming HBs here.

Yeah he is behind Perenara and Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi.

It's a damning verdict on professional rugby in Ireland and it's failure to develop young talented players if he ever plays for Ireland.

He is a 2nd stringer at best during his time in NZ and he is viewed by some in Ireland as the future backup to Conor Murray. Sad times.

RichieRich89 · 08-04-2016 03:30PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

Because the leinster backline is overflowing with young exciting talent...

I'd define the academy successfully developing a player to be developing a player for leinster who becomes 1st choice or at the very least a heavily relied upon backup, who makes a substantial impact at leinster.

John Cooney does not fit that criteria, developing starters and backups for other teams is not the primary goal of the leinster academy and it shouldn't be judged upon that criteria but rather how it does for Leinster in providing long term squad players and 1st choice starters.

And in the backline it's severely struggled this decade as I have explained.

Have you considered the possibility that the Academy did its job in relation to Cooney, and that him not taking the next step was down to Matt O'Connor's conservatism?

leinstertalk · 08-04-2016 03:33PM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Have you considered the possibility that the Academy did its job in relation to Cooney, and that him not taking the next step was down to Matt O'Connor's conservatism?

last I checked he is fighting it out with Blade to be backup scrumhalf for Connacht, hardly a huge endorsment..

He was earmarked as a future leinster starter, he never reached that level. That's failure in my book, MOC may take more responsibility than the academy but it's still all leinster rugby at the end of the day.

Hopefully the same doesn't happen with Luke McGrath.

But given leinster's recrord with scrumhalf development....

Yeah_Right · 08-04-2016 03:39PM

At the moment Ireland is struggling to find a high quality HB to back up or pressure Murray but it's cyclical. For a while there Ireland had TOL, Stringer and Reddan who were all test quality with Boss there as well and NZ were struggling to find a decent HB. Now it's the other way round. In a couple of years there will probably be some outstanding prospects coming through the academies.

stephen_n · 08-04-2016 07:33PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

Because the leinster backline is overflowing with young exciting talent...

I'd define the academy successfully developing a player to be developing a player for leinster who becomes 1st choice or at the very least a heavily relied upon backup, who makes a substantial impact at leinster.

John Cooney does not fit that criteria, developing starters and backups for other teams is not the primary goal of the leinster academy and it shouldn't be judged upon that criteria but rather how it does for Leinster in providing long term squad players and 1st choice starters.

And in the backline it's severely struggled this decade as I have explained.

I would imagine if Cooney was with Leinster next season, that's exactly what he'd be doing.

FrannoFan · 16-04-2016 10:09PM

Leinster have claims to having the best academy, they produce a serious number of international players. They benefit from a high standard schools game and it is hard to quantify what added value they do with these players between school and full Leinster team.

I think there is a case for Connacht to be heralded the best academy. They have managed to identify the rough diamonds and make them good pros.
Adeolukin- overlooked was playing with trinity
James Connolly- at newbridge, not on Leinster radar
Healy-club game
Bealham-aussie not rated
Dillane- overlooked in Munster
Robb - overlooked at Leinster
Buckley - went to blackrock and somewhat overlooked

The list goes on.
Connacht doing serious job in what I think an academy should do. Take rough diamonds and polish them as opposed to taking players who have reached their max(assuming that max is not good enough obviously) Leinster have so many players and only so many places so there is inevitably going to be guys who have to go elsewhere but serious kudos to Connacht for picking up theses guys and making them pro quality.

RichieRich89 · 16-04-2016 10:55PM

FrannoFan wrote: »

Leinster have claims to having the best academy, they produce a serious number of international players. They benefit from a high standard schools game and it is hard to quantify what added value they do with these players between school and full Leinster team.

I think there is a case for Connacht to be heralded the best academy. They have managed to identify the rough diamonds and make them good pros.
Adeolukin- overlooked was playing with trinity
James Connolly- at newbridge, not on Leinster radar
Healy-club game
Bealham-aussie not rated
Dillane- overlooked in Munster
Robb - overlooked at Leinster
Buckley - went to blackrock and somewhat overlooked

The list goes on.
Connacht doing serious job in what I think an academy should do. Take rough diamonds and polish them as opposed to taking players who have reached their max(assuming that max is not good enough obviously) Leinster have so many players and only so many places so there is inevitably going to be guys who have to go elsewhere but serious kudos to Connacht for picking up theses guys and making them pro quality.

Don't the academy players train with the senior squad full-time at Connacht? A lot of the improvements made by the players you mention could be down to the good work of the coaches of the senior side

Quintis · 17-04-2016 09:13PM

FrannoFan wrote: »

Leinster have claims to having the best academy, they produce a serious number of international players. They benefit from a high standard schools game and it is hard to quantify what added value they do with these players between school and full Leinster team.

I think there is a case for Connacht to be heralded the best academy. They have managed to identify the rough diamonds and make them good pros.
Adeolukin- overlooked was playing with trinity
James Connolly- at newbridge, not on Leinster radar
Healy-club game
Bealham-aussie not rated
Dillane- overlooked in Munster
Robb - overlooked at Leinster
Buckley - went to blackrock and somewhat overlooked

The list goes on.
Connacht doing serious job in what I think an academy should do. Take rough diamonds and polish them as opposed to taking players who have reached their max(assuming that max is not good enough obviously) Leinster have so many players and only so many places so there is inevitably going to be guys who have to go elsewhere but serious kudos to Connacht for picking up theses guys and making them pro quality.

Dillane was not overlooked in Munster, he was offered a sub-academy place in 2012 at 19, Connacht offered a full academy contract and he took it. Extremely unfair to say he was overlooked in Munster, he was involved in Irish under age teams and highly rated, being offered a sub-academy place when out of school is common practise as they judge players in a professional environment and recruit into the full aademy

RuPi · 17-04-2016 09:25PM

Jesse Iredale is to join the Ulster sub academy

jacothelad · 17-04-2016 10:48PM

RuPi wrote: »

Jesse Iredale is to join the Ulster sub academy

Who he? They have a sign over the door..."Abandon hope all ye who enter here."

RobbieRuns · 18-04-2016 03:57PM

Quintis wrote: »

Dillane was not overlooked in Munster, he was offered a sub-academy place in 2012 at 19, Connacht offered a full academy contract and he took it. Extremely unfair to say he was overlooked in Munster, he was involved in Irish under age teams and highly rated, being offered a sub-academy place when out of school is common practise as they judge players in a professional environment and recruit into the full aademy

Not sure that is fully correct, he was not offered a full academy contract in Connacht. He came here on a trial and after the trial he was offered an academy contract. Why he would come here to trial if he was offered a sub academy place at home? I would never try to be unfair, but if you look at it logically, he was overlooked at Munster in some way. Why else would he have come to Galway at all, either on a trial or to join the academy?

FrannoFan · 18-04-2016 04:02PM

Quintis wrote: »

Dillane was not overlooked in Munster, he was offered a sub-academy place in 2012 at 19, Connacht offered a full academy contract and he took it. Extremely unfair to say he was overlooked in Munster, he was involved in Irish under age teams and highly rated, being offered a sub-academy place when out of school is common practise as they judge players in a professional environment and recruit into the full aademy

Maybe not overlooked but Connacht clearly valued/saw enough potential to offer him a full academy spot. Sub academy really isn't much of an offer. All the under 20's would be offered that.

FrannoFan · 18-04-2016 04:04PM

RuPi wrote: »

Jesse Iredale is to join the Ulster sub academy

Didn't start for belvo.clever going up to get a sub academy spot as probably wouldn't get it in Leinster. Good athlete,hard to say how could he can be.

The Lost Sheep · 18-04-2016 09:38PM

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Not sure that is fully correct, he was not offered a full academy contract in Connacht. He came here on a trial and after the trial he was offered an academy contract. Why he would come here to trial if he was offered a sub academy place at home? I would never try to be unfair, but if you look at it logically, he was overlooked at Munster in some way. Why else would he have come to Galway at all, either on a trial or to join the academy?

It is. He was offered an academy spot with Connacht and has said so in interviews. Only offered sub academy and moved to Connacht for 19s and full academy spot. He was overlooked in Munster as said by a few people.

CMOTDibbler · 19-04-2016 10:37AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not sure that the AIL isn't capable of providing meaningful matches. My solution would be to have academy teams compete there and this would provide both a useful outlet for the players but also a higher profile for the AIL itself. There a disconnect between the AIL and the provinces and this would help bridge that. It would also give academy coaches a closer look at the AIL and the players in other clubs which would in turn hopefully lead to more crossover betwwen the AIL and the academies/senior provincial squads.

I see David Corkery agrees with me

“I could pick a team comprised of players from all the Division One AIL teams that could easily compete with the Munster team that played Connacht on Saturday. I mean that, hand on heart.
“There is definitely a place for the academy but not for stupid, irrelevant competitions like the B&I Cup with most people not knowing or caring that the games are actually taking place. Munster argue that the level of the AIL isn’t good enough for these players to progress to European Cup rugby. But the problem is that they won’t give us the players to play week in, week out, and learn their trade in a club environment.
“The place for the academy is their strength and conditioning, their general education off the field, their nutrition, all the sub-headings that go into making a rugby player.”

Buer · 19-04-2016 10:40AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I see David Corkery agrees with me

I wouldn't advertise that!

Tarf1234 · 19-04-2016 10:44AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I see David Corkery agrees with me

I'm not really sure how you can say you both said the same thing?? I can't see the point and which he suggests that the A teams play in the AIL. Although I do very much agree with his point!

CMOTDibbler · 19-04-2016 10:45AM

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't advertise that!

I did wink

But regardless of who's making the point, the current setup really doesn't give a lot of playing time to academy players. The number of matches at B+I and 'A' level for a third year academy player is miniscule. He's also right in saying that the AIL players aren't as far apart from the standard of the academy players as some would think.

CMOTDibbler · 19-04-2016 10:49AM

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I'm not really sure how you can say you both said the same thing?? I can't see the point and which he suggests that the A teams play in the AIL. Although I do very much agree with his point!

He's saying that the academy players playing at 'A' level and B+I cup (and if you check, they get very little of this anyway) is a waste of time and they should be playing full time in the AIL. I was saying the same except that they play as a squad but I'm not hung up on that. The point about them not being available week in, week out to their supposed AIL clubs is the reason I suggested this in the first place.

Bazzo · 19-04-2016 10:55AM

Unless I'm mistaken the A teams are getting around 9 or 10 games a season at the minute but that only includes one match with each other province's a team. Why not set up a home and away game with each and up the amount of games they're playing by a third for a start? It will hardly cost anything extra and get some more meaningful derbies going.

Tarf1234 · 19-04-2016 12:05PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He's saying that the academy players playing at 'A' level and B+I cup (and if you check, they get very little of this anyway) is a waste of time and they should be playing full time in the AIL. I was saying the same except that they play as a squad but I'm not hung up on that. The point about them not being available week in, week out to their supposed AIL clubs is the reason I suggested this in the first place.

Right, I'm fully behind that!

CMOTDibbler · 19-04-2016 01:22PM

Bazzo wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken the A teams are getting around 9 or 10 games a season at the minute but that only includes one match with each other province's a team. Why not set up a home and away game with each and up the amount of games they're playing by a third for a start? It will hardly cost anything extra and get some more meaningful derbies going.

The problem is that the academy players don't really get much of a look in for A games. Most of the time the A team is predominantly senior players who aren't playing with the senior squad that week or guys coming back from injury. Just taking a random third year academy player like Steve Crosbie; he's had 3 A caps in his three years there.

RobbieRuns · 19-04-2016 01:25PM

I think they will scrap the U20 interpros soon and have an academies competition.

CMOTDibbler · 19-04-2016 01:31PM

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think they will scrap the U20 interpros soon and have an academies competition.

Well that would help, but I don't understand scrapping the U20s matches. That's the basis for the U20 Ireland squad and most of the academy players are over 20.

ArmchairQB · 19-04-2016 01:39PM

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think they will scrap the U20 interpros soon and have an academies competition.

There will be under 20 camps this summer but no inter provincial 20s games , in it place will be a development inter pro series so no age limits but by its nature under 23 to include most academy players and will run the same time as the old 20s camps ran

Tarf1234 · 19-04-2016 01:46PM

ArmchairQB wrote: »

There will be under 20 camps this summer but no inter provincial 20s games , in it place will be a development inter pro series so no age limits but by its nature under 23 to include most academy players and will run the same time as the old 20s camps ran

Is that actually happening?? I haven't seen anything on it.

The Academies

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