D.o.Edu threatens to reduce school funding if parents dont give kids private data

DeVore · 15-04-2016 02:28PM #1

Mods: I wasn't sure if this is Politics material but since A. We don't have a government at the moment

and B. its not really tied to a party or an ideology (its just plain old WTF stupidity). I thought this was better place for it to inform parents.

So, the crib notes so far:

1. The Dept of Education wants to collect data on every primary school child from now on and store it for 30 years.

2. Some of the fields they want to fill are... problematic imho. (Name, PPSN, PArents name, School Address, Home Address, learning disabilities). This database is a real timebomb if it ever saw the light of day.

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2015/05/08/pod-data-fields-a-mix-of-the-irrelevant-the-unsettling-and-the-possibly-illegal/

3. Any parent who declined having their kid "processed" has been threatened with having their school "defunded" for that kid. (This has been retracted now after the Data Protection Commission basically went WTF DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?!? But they are keeping that very quiet.)

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2016/04/08/department-throws-in-the-towel-on-a-compulsory-pod/

4. At every step they have fought the Freedom Of Information requests to know what is in this database. And the whole thing just stinks to high heaven of "civil servant hasn't thought this through and there'll be a tribunal in 5 years time". There still isn't a full exhaustive list of the fields that will be in the DB for example (though the above ones have been confirmed)

This is a very good source of information from the lawyer who is fighting this with FOI requests (and has been for a year).

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/category/pod/

So, what do you think? Are you a parent? Are you concerned about this?

I think having data to analyse is important and useful, but the data being collected seems excessive and typically governmental (collect it all, we'll sort it out later). There seems a really shadowy reluctance to be transparent about this and there seems to be a scary lack of understanding of just how sensitive this data will be in the future and how much it needs to be secured!

ALSO, IF YOU ARE A PARENT AND YOU DONT WANT YOUR CHILDS DATA CAPTURED YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO OPT OUT!!

15-04-2016 02:30PM

BTW: This information is being stored on Revenue's ROS computer system.

BoJack Horseman · 15-04-2016 02:32PM

The government already has all this information anyway.
So it's redundant.

0byme75341jo28 · 15-04-2016 02:33PM

Why on earth does it need to be kept for thirty years? Would make some bit of sense if it was only kept while they're in primary education..

dub_skav · 15-04-2016 02:37PM

Kobe Zealous Sidewalk wrote: »

Why on earth does it need to be kept for thirty years? Would make some bit of sense if it was only kept while they're in primary education..

Ok, so you found 4th class easy, no need to rub it in

Clampdown · 15-04-2016 02:42PM

I know this will make me sound like a conspiracy nut, but somehow I can't help thinking that this is another step closer to microchipping us from birth.

matrim · 15-04-2016 02:50PM

I think that there was also concerns about who can access the data. IIRC, any teacher in (any?) school can access the data so it basically means that your private information is available for no reason to a lot of people.

_Whimsical_ · 15-04-2016 03:05PM

DeVore wrote: »

2. Some of the fields they want to fill are... problematic imho. (Name, PPSN, PArents name, School Address, Home Address, learning disabilities). This database is a real timebomb if it ever saw the light of day.

I wouldn't consider any of those data fields a potential "time bomb". How would you forsee this turning nasty exactly?

A record of parents names, addresses, even PPSNs would be just basic information I'd have thought. A record of learning difficulties would also be important for educational continuity for a child with problems if they were to move school during their education and to keep track of funding of special needs in schools.

DeVore · 15-04-2016 03:08PM

*edit*... Letter from DoE to a parent regarding this (and the DPC smack down).

Christy42 · 15-04-2016 03:14PM

Clampdown wrote: »

I know this will make me sound like a conspiracy nut, but somehow I can't help thinking that this is another step closer to microchipping us from birth.

I think you are giving the people running this way way waaaaayyyyy too much credit. There is no way they have planned this far ahead.

That said this looks like a data mining playground. Especially given people may be able to cross reference with other data sets. Screw it you could easily discriminate against a child who has lived in a rough area for a while this data. Say if the parents got better jobs and the kid tried to move schools.

Sleepy · 15-04-2016 03:25PM

TBH, I've always wondered why the various Departments of Government don't get an exemption form some of the Data Protection Laws. Given a few days with the right databases of the Dept of Health, Dept of Welfare and the Dept of Revenue, I'd be pretty certain I could return millions to the state coffers in fraud detection.

When you think about it, it's rather insane that we don't have a single government information system to process welfare, tax, drivers licenses, health records, social housing, property tax, property ownership, criminal records etc. etc. etc. Were this built properly (with one's PPSN as the primary key), the cost savings would be immense. Legal Fees would plummet, there'd be no need for a census, there'd be next to no capacity for welfare fraud, policy could be formed based on accurate details of the demographics and status of the population etc.

Sure, it'd need to be incredibly well protected but once there were sufficient data access protocols in place, such a system should revolutionise the running of the state.

Badly Drunk Boy · 15-04-2016 03:26PM

DeVore wrote: »

Letter from DPC regarding this:

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but is that letter not to the DPC, but quoting from a previous DPC letter in bold? Looks like the Department of Education trying to justify what they're up to (whatever that is).

DeVore · 15-04-2016 03:27PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I wouldn't consider any of those data fields a potential "time bomb". How would you forsee this turning nasty exactly?

A record of parents names, addresses, even PPSNs would be just basic information I'd have thought. A record of learning difficulties would also be important for educational continuity for a child with problems if they were to move school during their education and to keep track of funding of special needs in schools.

I'm usually the guy saying that fear of paedos is a boll0x reason for governments TO collect data. This time I'm saying its a genuine concern FOR collecting data.

If this database leaked, how does this sound.
Johnny comes out of school to find a guy telling him his mother (gives mothers name name) told him to pick him up and bring him home (gives address of home). Johnny is targeted because he has Down's Syndrome and his mother was distracted by a call to her phone (listed in DB) saying her husband has had a heart attack.

Or, abusive husband of an estranged wife finds out where his kids are going to school after she fled him with them and he turns up to pick them up. Kids recognise "daddy" and go with him.

Its not hard to construct quite reasonably likely scenarios for misuse of this data. By "quite likely" I mean greater than 0.01% because given that we will have a million entries easily in this database, that's still quite an unacceptable level of abuse at 1 in 10,000.

DeVore · 15-04-2016 03:28PM

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Maybe I'm not reading it right, but is that letter not to the DPC, but quoting from a previous DPC letter in bold? Looks like the Department of Education trying to justify what they're up to (whatever that is).

Sorry, youre right that's the DoE's response to a parent after they were smacked by the DPC.

DeVore · 15-04-2016 03:30PM

Sleepy wrote: »

TBH, I've always wondered why the various Departments of Government don't get an exemption form some of the Data Protection Laws. Given a few days with the right databases of the Dept of Health, Dept of Welfare and the Dept of Revenue, I'd be pretty certain I could return millions to the state coffers in fraud detection.

When you think about it, it's rather insane that we don't have a single government information system to process welfare, tax, drivers licenses, health records, social housing, property tax, property ownership, criminal records etc. etc. etc. Were this built properly (with one's PPSN as the primary key), the cost savings would be immense. Legal Fees would plummet, there'd be no need for a census, there'd be next to no capacity for welfare fraud, policy could be formed based on accurate details of the demographics and status of the population etc.

Sure, it'd need to be incredibly well protected but once there were sufficient data access protocols in place, such a system should revolutionise the running of the state.

I would agree ....except that we don't have a good record in "incredibly well protecting" anything in this country. So, as a result I'm very sceptical of such tracking and its abuse. (I would have no issue with its intended use, I have a major issue that it will be used for things it was never intended).

One eyed Jack · 15-04-2016 03:30PM

DeVore wrote: »

So, what do you think? Are you a parent? Are you concerned about this?

I think having data to analyse is important and useful, but the data being collected seems excessive and typically governmental (collect it all, we'll sort it out later). There seems a really shadowy reluctance to be transparent about this and there seems to be a scary lack of understanding of just how sensitive this data will be in the future and how much it needs to be secured!

I'm a parent and I don't have any problem with this. It's basically collating data in one place that's scattered across numerous databases already, with the aim of providing better services in education. Personally, I don't think the data being collected is excessive. The more data is available to them, the better they are able to tailor services. Of course the idea is to collect it all first and then they can sort it out later, it's the same way any large database works, it's no different to the way Facebook, Google, Microsoft, any social media providers work.

I don't think there's anything shadowy about being reluctant to release information that can be used to attempt to whip up mass hysteria about "Big Bad Government", based on people's lack of understanding of how the data is being controlled, used, secured, etc.

It's a similar system to the system they have in the UK -

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/12/national_pupil_database_now_holds_20_million_records/

SEPT 23 1989 · 15-04-2016 03:42PM

So a child with a disability will be labelled for life by the state no matter how much they improve and try and lead a normal life

Tasden · 15-04-2016 03:53PM

I really don't see the issue with it tbh.
I filled the form in and returned it without a second thought.
I read the thread in parenting i think it was at the time they sent the info request home and I am still none the wiser as to why it would be a problem. That's not to say there is none... i just don't see it myself!

stoplooklisten · 15-04-2016 04:03PM

Can they not just look at the list of who they're paying child benefit to? Has this not already got all this data?

DeVore · 15-04-2016 04:03PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm a parent and I don't have any problem with this. It's basically collating data in one place that's scattered across numerous databases already, with the aim of providing better services in education. Personally, I don't think the data being collected is excessive. The more data is available to them, the better they are able to tailor services. Of course the idea is to collect it all first and then they can sort it out later, it's the same way any large database works, it's no different to the way Facebook, Google, Microsoft, any social media providers work.

I don't think there's anything shadowy about being reluctant to release information that can be used to attempt to whip up mass hysteria about "Big Bad Government", based on people's lack of understanding of how the data is being controlled, used, secured, etc.

It's a similar system to the system they have in the UK -

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/12/national_pupil_database_now_holds_20_million_records/

Ok, I'm not going to argue with you because I appreciate you giving your point of view.

My response would be to question why things like "home address" and "name" need to be in there... In database terms the name can at the very least be symbolised with a foreign key in a different database should it ever be needed. Realistically, I don't see why you would ever need to know the kids name anyway. Are we going to count the number of Kevins in school?

I wouldn't argue with the valid uses of this database, those I'm sure are all good and valid. My concerns are with limiting the downside if there is a breach or a misuse of data. Its not good policy to plan only for the best case scenario.

DeVore · 15-04-2016 04:09PM

Tasden wrote: »

I really don't see the issue with it tbh.
I filled the form in and returned it without a second thought.
I read the thread in parenting i think it was at the time they sent the info request home and I am still none the wiser as to why it would be a problem. That's not to say there is none... i just don't see it myself!

Two words: Misuse and Breach.

Misuse: The Gardaí's PULSE database has been misused so often that its now a major issue for the DPC: http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2012/02/checking-pulse.html
Everything from looking up the address of a hot girl you pulled over to selling data to armed robbers (http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2009/10/garda-databases-still-open-to-abuse.html ).

Breach: Data breaches happen all the time. If you are long enough on the internet the chances of you getting hacked or stolen and redistributed become 100%. We're talking about a database who's lifetime measured in decades, 30 year to be exact, for any given entry. The DB itself will exist in perpetuity. This database WILL leak, its a question of time. We need to accept that as a consequence, a *certainty*, of creating it and consider what happens when that occurs. Not if.

Samaris · 15-04-2016 04:13PM

DeVore wrote: »

Breach: Data breaches happen all the time. If you are long enough on the internet the chances of you getting hacked or stolen and redistributed become 100%.

Eek, I don't want to be stolen and redistributed O.O

Tasden · 15-04-2016 04:34PM

DeVore wrote: »

Two words: Misuse and Breach.

Misuse: The Gardaí's PULSE database has been misused so often that its now a major issue for the DPC: http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2012/02/checking-pulse.html
Everything from looking up the address of a hot girl you pulled over to selling data to armed robbers (http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2009/10/garda-databases-still-open-to-abuse.html ).

Breach: Data breaches happen all the time. If you are long enough on the internet the chances of you getting hacked or stolen and redistributed become 100%. We're talking about a database who's lifetime measured in decades, 30 year to be exact, for any given entry. The DB itself will exist in perpetuity. This database WILL leak, its a question of time. We need to accept that as a consequence, a *certainty*, of creating it and consider what happens when that occurs. Not if.

But if I claim child benefit/carer's allowance etc for my child then her pps, my name, our address, conditions she may have etc are all on the dsp system so why is this different?

Permabear · 15-04-2016 04:38PM

This post has been deleted.

Calhoun · 15-04-2016 04:42PM

Very brave of the department to take this kind of fight considering the political climate we are in and the chances of this becoming an election issue are quite high.

One eyed Jack · 15-04-2016 04:42PM

DeVore wrote: »

Ok, I'm not going to argue with you because I appreciate you giving your point of view.

My response would be to question why things like "home address" and "name" need to be in there... In database terms the name can at the very least be symbolised with a foreign key in a different database should it ever be needed. Realistically, I don't see why you would ever need to know the kids name anyway. Are we going to count the number of Kevins in school?

I wouldn't argue with the valid uses of this database, those I'm sure are all good and valid. My concerns are with limiting the downside if there is a breach or a misuse of data. Its not good policy to plan only for the best case scenario.

Because it's one way of keeping track of students progress through the school system, I imagine the key would be their PPSN, no need to have their names and addresses broken down into separate tables or other databases when the idea is just as you said to collect all the data, and pull records from it as necessary.

As Sleepy said - a couple of hours (maybe months would be more realistic) with the databases across Government departments could be used to streamline services across the whole area of education, welfare, employment, etc. Revenue have access to numerous sources already running fraud detection and a system like this would actually increase child safety.

To give you another scenario -

There's another thread on here where a woman moved her family around the country to avoid social care services. With a system like this in place, the children could be flagged immediately as soon as they're registered in a new school, and the data fed back to Tusla, and the same case can be picked up where they left off instead of a new case being opened.

I understand that of course a large database would be an invaluable resource were it ever to be breached, identity fraud would certainly be a concern, but the electoral register and social media are probably handier tools for anyone with more nefarious intent.

Arsemageddon · 15-04-2016 04:44PM

DeVore wrote: »

I would agree ....except that we don't have a good record in "incredibly well protecting" anything in this country. So, as a result I'm very sceptical of such tracking and its abuse. (I would have no issue with its intended use, I have a major issue that it will be used for things it was never intended).

For me this goes to the very heart of the matter. Establishing a database for a specific purpose is all well and good. The problem is that over time 'mission creep' can set in and the database could be used for purposes other than originally intended.

Government departments in Ireland have a pretty poor record of establishing and maintain proper protocols about who is entitled to access information and in what circumstances.

A recent example of a fairly shocking failure to put proper systems to manage data in place occurred with a state run genealogy website...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/genealogy-site-left-personal-data-open-to-identity-thieves-says-commissioner-1.1872664

Improper and/or illegal accessing of both Revenue and the Dept. of Social Welfare databases have also occurred in the recent past...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/revenue-fires-staff-for-serious-breaches-274577.html
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-credit-unions-used-stolen-data-to-snoop-on-customers-30510365.html

There was also a story in the papers in the last year about some of the lads in revenue looking up well known peoples tax records just for the crack. (sorry, can't find a link).

We should all be concerned when a government departments best guarantee that data will be protected consists of little more than 'ah sure, it'll be grand'

Pawwed Rig · 15-04-2016 05:55PM

On one school where we are applying for junior infants for the little fellah ot was listed as a question. ie 'I agree to this' Yes No.
I would suspect it is being used as part of their selection criteria.

eviltwin · 15-04-2016 06:01PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

So a child with a disability will be labelled for life by the state no matter how much they improve and try and lead a normal life

This is my concern. My eldest started college last year, she has aspergers but chose not to disclose this to the college. It's not affecting her so she figured they don't need to know. That's her right. My youngest also has aspergers but we now have to disclose it. I resent that his privacy may now be compromised.

meeeeh · 15-04-2016 06:14PM

DeVore wrote: »

Or, abusive husband of an estranged wife finds out where his kids are going to school after she fled him with them and he turns up to pick them up. Kids recognise "daddy" and go with him.

Or abusive parents move the child everytime there is a whiff of social services looking into them. If there is no centralized data it is a lot harder to see where the kids are, if there is centralized data you can follow kids progress or problems.

Or seeing how population is changing in an area and how could schools be better adjusted to demographic changes. Or statistically observing how kids in different areas are doing to target resources.

Is that the sort of data collection we are against? Just checking?

Tombi! · 15-04-2016 06:21PM

I'd be against it. It's scary, almost, that this is being kept for 30 years. I figure that maybe keep it for the duration of the school stay. Nuke it from the primary school database after the kids complete first year and when the kids are legally 18, let them decide themselves if they want it remaining on the secondary school's information.

I can sort of understand some of it. Things like name/address/DoB/etc. Fine keep that in the school database. But for 30 years?
Get the f**k outta here. You don't need it kept for 30 years.

D.o.Edu threatens to reduce school funding if parents dont give kids private data

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