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Can't get any experience or work as a Junior Java Developer

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124

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    #92
    scaldy_balls
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭scaldy_balls


    Throwaway to protect the innocent.

    I'm doing a course at the minute. SAP, AOL, Microsoft, Fujitsu, Accenture and a few smaller companies are involved. Don't expect a whole lot from the training part but it might be a way to get into a company.

    fit[dot]ie/courses/fit-ictap/


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    #93
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    Ok thanks.


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    #94
    14ned
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭14ned


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    When I have learnt it all there doesn't seem to be any jobs in sight anyway because every job asks for 2 years or more experience.
    I'm starting to wonder if I should give up on software development completely now and do something else.
    I really don't know what else I could or want to do now.

    What you should be asking yourself are these questions:

    1. What can I do to get my work reviewed by people respected in the field so I can learn how to improve the idiomatic presentation of my work?

    2. How do I position myself such that those people will place their reputation on the line to recommend me to an employer on the basis of my work they reviewed?

    3. What orgs/committees/charities can I serve with a few hours per week to generate and sustain a network of contacts which will be useful in finding employment?

    4. Just how far are you willing to go personally to find employment in this field? Is it as far as is needed? What are you willing to sacrifice to get there? If so, make it a relentless obsession and let nothing stand in your way. If not, go find whatever hourly temporary job which pays the most you can find and relax.


    You'll note nothing above is specific to IT. They apply to all "good" jobs irrespective of profession, field, country or location. If you aren't willing to go as far as is needed to get a "good" job, it's probably not for you and you'd be miserable in it anyway.

    For the record, even once you are into a good job, the good times don't just roll in except in a very few roles - most of which are civil service jobs. It remains a never ending slog of going as far as is needed to keep your skills fresh and relevant, all balanced with trying to see any of your family so your wife won't leave you and children won't hate you, all balanced with trying to save away enough to afford a mortgage and if very lucky, a private pension for old age.

    Life isn't easy, and nothing comes for free. For almost everybody you get in life what you work for, and nothing more.

    Niall


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    #95
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    I think I've unfortunately run out of jobs to apply for in programming.
    I want to work for a company but I think I've now applied nearly everywhere and got rejected or completely ignored.
    Recruitment agencies are useless and won't help me.
    I don't even get any pesky, annoying useless calls from them anymore.
    I think I've had it with software engineering.
    It's time to do something else.
    I've wasted enough of my life trying to get into it, it's just not happening.
    Anyone got any suggestions on what I could do now? :D


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    #96
    Fakman87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Fakman87


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    I think I've unfortunately run out of jobs to apply for in programming.
    I want to work for a company but I think I've now applied nearly everywhere and got rejected or completely ignored.
    Recruitment agencies are useless and won't help me.
    I don't even get any pesky, annoying useless calls from them anymore.
    I think I've had it with software engineering.
    It's time to do something else.
    I've wasted enough of my life trying to get into it, it's just not happening.
    Anyone got any suggestions on what I could do now? :D

    I'm only starting in software so can't comment on whether you should pack it in. Regarding other career paths a HDip in Accounting could be something to look into. It's a one year course and then three years working for one of the big four. After that you're pretty much guaranteed a job and potential for serious money.


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    #97
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    At the moment I'm thinking about PC repair.
    Would Comptia A+ 900 be the course to do for that?


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    #98
    OfflerCrocGod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,306 ✭✭✭OfflerCrocGod


    London, London, London.

    Best market in Europe.

    Get on LinkedIn, contact companies, contact agents.

    A flight over during the week is €60 inc train to Liverpool Street from Stansted. Companies might pick up the bill even for untested grads level positions.


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    #99
    MillField
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭MillField


    OfflerCrocGod wrote: »
    London, London, London.

    Best market in Europe.

    Get on LinkedIn, contact companies, contact agents.

    A flight over during the week is €60 inc train to Liverpool Street from Stansted. Companies might pick up the bill even for untested grads level positions.

    Lots of jobs, only problem is it's a very expensive place to live. Great for a year or two max.


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    #100
    ARGINITE
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭ARGINITE


    Couldn't agree more, jobs market in London is good.
    It's not cheap to live here but get experience and then move on.


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    #101
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    Yes it's completely useless here anyway that's for sure.


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    #102
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    Anyway after actively searching and applying to developer jobs including graduate roles, junior roles and internships and getting absolutely nowhere it is obvious Im completely wasting my time trying to get a job in software development. I can't even get an internship as they always say they're looking for more experience or some other bs excuse so when I'm not even given a chance to work for free there is absolutely no chance of me getting a job in it.
    I will have to forget about it and find a job in something else. I always had planned on working in software development. I unfortunately wasted years doing a degree and certifications and studying it and all for nothing.
    Any enthusiasm I've had for software development has been completely drained out of me after nothing but rejection and disappointment. I really don't know what the heck I'm going to look for work in now. I have no plan on what to do if I failed at this. I suppose its better that Ive realised this now than later.
    That comptia course I had been hoping to do still isnt available.


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    #103
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    What have you done to gain experience since the last woe is me update? Any freelance work, any open source work, anything?


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    #104
    Buford T Justice
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    Two years ago i bluffed my way into an internship as a developer with no qualifications and a little bit of android and java experience. Ironic that I'm back in college now, but my point is that I did it.


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    #105
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    Graham wrote: »
    What have you done to gain experience since the last woe is me update? Any freelance work, any open source work, anything?

    Ive been studying wordpress how to build your own themes,javascript, Css, Laravel framework. I put code from that up on github.
    I can't get any freelance work there's nothing.


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    #106
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    Ive been studying wordpress how to build your own themes,javascript, Css, Laravel framework. I put code from that up on github.

    OK, here's a suggestion.

    Stop studying and actually make something. Don't pick anything new to learn, use something you already have knowledge of and apply it.

    Use one or more of the freelance sites and pick up a few paying gigs. You'll get some actual real life commercial world experience rather than building yet another learning exercise, you'll make some money and you'll have something to show/discuss with potential employers.
    quinnd6 wrote: »
    I can't get any freelance work there's nothing.

    BS there's an endless supply on the freelance marketplaces and you don't have to charge 3rd world rates to get the jobs.
    There's always Irish companies looking for freelancers.
    There's often posts here on boards of people/companies looking for developers.


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    #107
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Consider looking outside of Ireland too.


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    #108
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    I don't want to emigrate to the UK and I don't think it would be any better there anyway.
    Thanks Graham I think that's a good idea, I think I might give freelance work a try.


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    #109
    Fakman87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Fakman87


    Have you ever applied for entry level IT support jobs? You could start with that and work your way into a development role.


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    #110
    quinnd6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭quinnd6


    I'm betting I wouldn't be able to get an entry level support job either, they also require some kind of experience.
    What kind of entry level support jobs are you talking about?
    I could still take a look and give it a try I suppose.


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    #111
    Buford T Justice
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    I'm betting I wouldn't be able to get an entry level support job either, they also require some kind of experience.


    Thats the spirit!!!


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    #112
    Fakman87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Fakman87


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    I'm betting I wouldn't be able to get an entry level support job either, they also require some kind of experience.
    What kind of entry level support jobs are you talking about?
    I could still take a look and give it a try I suppose.

    Entry level IT support desk jobs usually don't require any experience as the pay is quite low. I know three different people who started out that way and are now all earning over 60 grand a year. Two of them climbed the ladder in less than 5 years.


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    #113
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    The OP doesn't need to consider changing career direction into support, he needs to start applying the development skills he already has commercially.

    That's it, that really is all there is to it. It's not lack of coding ability or opportunities holding him back, it is partly lack of recent commercial experience and to a lesser extent the attitude and maybe fear after so long out of the market.

    That's why I suggested a few small freelance gigs on one of the freelance marketplaces as a start. Build experience, build confidence, get references and make a few quid in the process.


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    #114
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    quinnd6 wrote: »
    I don't want to emigrate to the UK and I don't think it would be any better there anyway. Thanks Graham I think that's a good idea, I think I might give freelance work a try.

    Its a bigger pool. Bound to be more opportunities. Its why people emigrate in the first place. Still its not for everyone.

    Freelancing is a hard route.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99247668&postcount=4


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    #115
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    Its a bigger pool. Bound to be more opportunities. Its why people emigrate in the first place. Still its not for everyone.

    Freelancing is a hard route.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99247668&postcount=4

    I'm glad someone pays attention, thanks Beauf :D

    It is a hard route to replace a full time salary, no doubt about it. In this case I think it's appropriate as the main motivator is commercial experience, the money would be icing on the cake. My suggestion here also would also go against my advice in the other thread. Smaller gigs to start with, just to get into the swing of things.

    That's not to suggest you can't make substantially more than a full-time salary by freelancing it's just hard work and takes time to establish.


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    #116
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I reckon, a experienced developer can make money freelancing if they have a good acumen for the business of it. For someone starting off, without any business smarts, is likely to be even more discouraged, and have their time wasted, as there's a lot of people wanting to take advantage. "Positions advertised that are offering profit share instead of salary in return for work will be deleted immediately."
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055234599

    Maybe freelancing is a lot easier than it used to be. I'm a long time away from it. I'd prefer contracting, but that's probably as hard to get into as finding a job. When I was contracting, you made loads of contacts and got varied experience very fast. These days everyone suggests opensource projects. In my head that's working for free to get experience. Which sounds like a good idea. The OP seems to have done this already with his 9 months experience, though.


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    #117
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Freelancing is tough, that's why I'm only recommending it as a stop-gap to gain commercial experience.

    Open source is constantly thrown out as a silver bullet for those learning development. I'm not convinced although I have no doubt it does have some positive influence.

    Commercial experience trumps all.

    For the OP I'd suggest one of the freelancer sites like PeoplePerHour, a couple of few-hour projects to start with before moving onto those with a bit more substance. Payment is escrowed in advance limiting the risks somewhat.

    Two or three months of that, update LinkedIn and start applying for full-time positions.


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    #118
    14ned
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭14ned


    Graham wrote: »
    Freelancing is tough, that's why I'm only recommending it as a stop-gap to gain commercial experience.

    I always found it a race to the bottom personally. Too much spec work is expected. But we're probably comparing chalk and cheese here, freelancing websites is very different to freelancing a CRM integration which in turn is very different to freelancing Windows kernel device drivers.
    Graham wrote: »
    Open source is constantly thrown out as a silver bullet for those learning development. I'm not convinced although I have no doubt it does have some positive influence.

    Commercial experience trumps all.

    I think that used to be the case. I'm not so sure now. The company I'm currently contracted to (a large US multinational) is currently hiring a senior permie and I've been put on the interview panel as a domain expert. Every candidate we've done face to face with has had their online presence investigated to determine "passion". Substantial open source contributions, conference presentations and ISO standards participation over many years into the specialist field is the gold standard, but enthusiastic forum posts and blog posts are rated highly too.

    We've already rejected a candidate who had an excellent traditional CV but had demonstrated zero online presence, and he had been asked if perhaps he had been using a pseudonym but he said he had not. It rang alarm bells that something was wrong relative to other candidates. Less information means more risk as it were.

    I know a lot of the fashion for professionals to have an online presence nowadays to be top rated is stemming from Silicon Valley. Even in C++, if you aren't regularly topping https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/, it's held that something is wrong: you're lazy, you've given up, you're coasting, or you have nothing interesting to contribute.

    It isn't fair. But it seems to be the way things are going.
    Graham wrote: »
    For the OP I'd suggest one of the freelancer sites like PeoplePerHour, a couple of few-hour projects to start with before moving onto those with a bit more substance. Payment is escrowed in advance limiting the risks somewhat.

    Two or three months of that, update LinkedIn and start applying for full-time positions.

    I will say I personally survived a seven year career break from anything technology related through open source contributions throughout that period. Also, a lot of the big tech multinational recruiters approach people based on significant open source contributions and in the case of Google, the kind of programming question searches you regularly do.

    Niall


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    #119
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    14ned wrote: »
    I always found it a race to the bottom personally. Too much spec work is expected. But we're probably comparing chalk and cheese here, freelancing websites is very different to freelancing a CRM integration which in turn is very different to freelancing Windows kernel device drivers.

    It's only a race to the bottom if you decide to join that particular race. There are plenty of other races you can join.
    14ned wrote: »
    I think that used to be the case. I'm not so sure now. The company I'm currently contracted to (a large US multinational) is currently hiring a senior permie and I've been put on the interview panel as a domain expert. Every candidate we've done face to face with has had their online presence investigated to determine "passion". Substantial open source contributions, conference presentations and ISO standards participation over many years into the specialist field is the gold standard, but enthusiastic forum posts and blog posts are rated highly too.

    Interesting, most of the MNCs I've worked with would look at commercial/domain experience first although adherence to and knowledge of standards and participation in industry conferences would obviously be a plus. I guess the open source side of things would depend on your particular domain, some areas just don't fit the open source arena particularly well.
    14ned wrote: »
    I will say I personally survived a seven year career break from anything technology related through open source contributions throughout that period.

    I would imagine any demonstrable experience would help to explain a seven year career break.
    14ned wrote: »
    Also, a lot of the big tech multinational recruiters approach people based on significant open source contributions and in the case of Google, the kind of programming question searches you regularly do.

    ?? Google check your search history as part of their recruitment process?


    Not entirely sure all this is helping the OP, he has some good sample code an ability and obvious willingness to learn new things. It's mostly commercial experience that's missing.


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    #120
    moycullen14
    Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭moycullen14


    Graham wrote: »



    ?? Google check your search history as part of their recruitment process?

    I believe they do. I've heard reports that people have been contacted directly by google recruiters based on searched they have done.

    Considering that I have in my time, entered such gems as 'What's a variable' I suppose it's no surprise they have never contacted me.
    :eek:


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    #121
    youcancallmeal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,994 ✭✭✭youcancallmeal


    Fakman87 wrote: »
    Entry level IT support desk jobs usually don't require any experience as the pay is quite low. I know three different people who started out that way and are now all earning over 60 grand a year. Two of them climbed the ladder in less than 5 years.

    Describes my route into development exactly. Started out about 10 years ago doing phone support, literally resetting passwords and telling people to turn their computers off and on again. They would hire anyone, you just had to have a little bit of English and say you were interested in computers and the job was yours. Turn over was crazy! Was nearly 3/4 years after that I even got my hands on a little bit of sql work.


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