Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Atheist Ireland, pick your battles, will ya?

Options
13567

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    In the days of the Roman Republic, the imperator of a particularly successful or important military campaign was occasionally awarded a triumph. This festive ceremony featured a parade of captured bounty and prisoners, interspersed with Roman soldiers signing bawdy songs about their commander, who would wave to the cheering crowds from the back of a chariot. And behind the chariot would walk a slave, whose sole job was to whisper in the ear of the conquering hero, "Remember that thou art mortal."

    Michael needs one of these chaps.


  • Options
    #63
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,351 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Surely it is those with delusions of a second life who need that remider?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #64
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Congratulations, you've just justified every Provisional IRA atrocity on the same basis as the Rising. All that's needed is a motivated bunch of thugs dedicated to a greater cause whether people want it or not, let me see... can I think of any current parallels?
    I disagree, 'a fight for freedom' does not justify atrocities and I find your reductionist comparison distasteful.

    I don't think it should have to be pointed out in the atheist forum of all places that not everything should have to require a mandate or popular consent :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,351 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I disagree, 'a fight for freedom' does not justify atrocities and I find your reductionist comparison distasteful.

    The post I quoted not only could be used to justify everything the PIRA did, but also everything the dissidents have done and are doing since. It all depends on who is allowed define what 'freedom' is, eh, and according to the poster I was replying to, the opinions of the people being 'freed' don't enter much or at all into it.
    I don't think it should have to be pointed out in the atheist forum of all places that not everything should have to require a mandate or popular consent :rolleyes:

    You're right in that human rights are universal and don't require a mandate or popular approval. Now join the dots.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #66
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    In the days of the Roman Republic, the imperator of a particularly successful or important military campaign was occasionally awarded a triumph. This festive ceremony featured a parade of captured bounty and prisoners, interspersed with Roman soldiers signing bawdy songs about their commander, who would wave to the cheering crowds from the back of a chariot. And behind the chariot would walk a slave, whose sole job was to whisper in the ear of the conquering hero, "Remember that thou art mortal."

    Michael needs one of these chaps.

    Michael Nugent as conquering hero!?!? Ah Michael, hope you're reading this...!



    http://macro-man.blogspot.com/2009/12/remember-that-thou-art-mortal.html

    https://dormitioninconcord.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/remember-that-thou-art-mortal/

    You should acknowledge your sources, frosty. :p


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    pauldla wrote: »
    Michael Nugent as conquering hero!?!? Ah Michael, hope you're reading this...!



    http://macro-man.blogspot.com/2009/12/remember-that-thou-art-mortal.html

    https://dormitioninconcord.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/remember-that-thou-art-mortal/

    You should acknowledge your sources, frosty. :p

    He just needs someone to help keep his feet on the ground, as he's jumped the shark with this press release. Is there not a committee that would sign off on these sort of things? Surely someone would have judged it OTT.


  • Options
    #68
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Congratulations, you've just justified every Provisional IRA atrocity on the same basis as the Rising. All that's needed is a motivated bunch of thugs dedicated to a greater cause whether people want it or not, let me see... can I think of any current parallels?

    you cant get to prissy about it, a lot of countries started with someone telling someone else to fck off with guns. my grandfather was in the IRA and from his perspective he was doing the right thing

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #69
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Nevertheless, the Volunteers in the Rising had arguably less of a mandate from the people of Ireland, and about as much moral justification, as the Provisional IRA did. The only difference being that so far historians have placed the Republicans of 1916 as heroes, and the Republicans of 1972 as terrorists. Realistically, much as I am happy to live in an Irish Republic and grateful to the combatants of 1916 for what they brought about, it would be delusional to imagine they were any better than al Qaeda, ISIS or any other political organisation with military capability; we just agree with what they (or some of them) wanted, and at the end of the day that makes all the difference. To us.


  • Options
    #70
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    Nevertheless, the Volunteers in the Rising had arguably less of a mandate from the people of Ireland, and about as much moral justification, as the Provisional IRA did. The only difference being that so far historians have placed the Republicans of 1916 as heroes, and the Republicans of 1972 as terrorists. Realistically, much as I am happy to live in an Irish Republic and grateful to the combatants of 1916 for what they brought about, it would be delusional to imagine they were any better than al Qaeda, ISIS or any other political organisation with military capability; we just agree with what they (or some of them) wanted, and at the end of the day that makes all the difference. To us.

    I have probably flip flopped on this issue in the past but I think its possible to draw a distinction between the war of independence and Northern Ireland. the south of Ireland was 90% Irish so one could take the view that it was time to lead (by violence) and incite a change. Its not like London would have accepted any mandate at the time and said grand so were off.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #71
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    In the days of the Roman Republic [...]
    Here in A+A and one would hope, most of the wider world, it's traditional to avoid plagiarism, even for a thinly-disguised insult like the comment above which - one assumes - you weren't smart enough to paraphrase, or honest enough to attribute to whoever wrote it.

    Cut out the smartass stuff and play nice or you'll be joining Technocentral on holiday.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,351 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    silverharp wrote: »
    you cant get to prissy about it, a lot of countries started with someone telling someone else to fck off with guns.

    The vast majority of them, yes. It's a moral quandary to say the least, and within any new nation carved out there will be people on the wrong side of the border wherever you place it.
    my grandfather was in the IRA and from his perspective he was doing the right thing

    But that's what all participants in conflict think, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. ISIS think they are doing the right thing. Those lads in Zaventem thought they were doing the right thing.
    silverharp wrote: »
    I have probably flip flopped on this issue in the past but I think its possible to draw a distinction between the war of independence and Northern Ireland. the south of Ireland was 90% Irish so one could take the view that it was time to lead (by violence) and incite a change. Its not like London would have accepted any mandate at the time and said grand so were off.

    That mandate came in the 1918 election and was indeed ignored in London and at that point there can be little justification (imho) for quibbling about the use of arms to enable the democratically elected Dail exercise its powers.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #73
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Trying to ban the Angelus is one thing (freedom of speech anyone?), jumping into bed with Muslims and Christian fundamentalists is another (the enemy of my enemy etc.), but this latest stunt is nothing short of disgraceful. Why bother inviting them to any state function if they're just going to act the maggot. I swear it's like he's trolling Catholics.


  • Options
    #74
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    I have probably flip flopped on this issue in the past but I think its possible to draw a distinction between the war of independence and Northern Ireland. the south of Ireland was 90% Irish so one could take the view that it was time to lead (by violence) and incite a change. Its not like London would have accepted any mandate at the time and said grand so were off.

    One could take the view that Northern Ireland was artificially planted with settlers to ensure a majority of non-native Irish, so there was a mandate from the real Irish in the North who were being even more egregiously supplanted and oppressed than their cousins in the south. From that point of view they were even more 'right' than those in the south to rebel.

    I don't think you'll find an objective rationale for the 1916 rebels that can't be afforded their latter day namesakes, simply the fact that history (here) is (now) on their side is all there is.


  • Options
    #75
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    One could take the view that Northern Ireland was artificially planted with settlers to ensure a majority of non-native Irish, so there was a mandate from the real Irish in the North who were being even more egregiously supplanted and oppressed than their cousins in the south. From that point of view they were even more 'right' than those in the south to rebel.

    I don't think you'll find an objective rationale for the 1916 rebels that can't be afforded their latter day namesakes, simply the fact that history (here) is (now) on their side is all there is.

    the numbers matter, northern Ireland would have been an ethnic civil war at the worst and thankfully it never came to that it. Also the provisional ira quickly descended into pure terrorism as we know it today where the tactic was to scare the public and should have been obvious a few years into it that it couldn't achieve its objectives.
    I wouldn't look for "objective rationale" one simply had a stronger case than the other

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #76
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Trying to ban the Angelus is one thing (freedom of speech anyone?)

    How does state funded media broadcasting a daily dose of religious propaganda equate to freedom of speech?

    On the topic, I agree with the sentiments of the statement from AI, its a very ill thought out and poorly worded statement that in my opinion even goes against the openness and willingness to accept every ones beliefs and the belief of inclusiveness that I would hope people would be moving towards.

    The fact that the celebrations were a month early whether be for religious reasons or for tourism reasons is disgusting and was rightly called out but other than that I think the statement was a bad one and harmful to the cause of a truly secular society.


  • Options
    #77
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Congratulations, you've just justified every Provisional IRA atrocity on the same basis as the Rising. All that's needed is a motivated bunch of thugs dedicated to a greater cause whether people want it or not, let me see... can I think of any current parallels?

    Yep, justified, absolutely, do I agree "morally/ethically" with every action done by the PIRA? Of course not. There would be zero conflict in Ireland if the colonists simply assimilated or left, end of story, blaming the victim doesnt fly when it comes to overseas conflicts, yet its fine for our own, why is that?

    As for the risible ISIS/Islam comparison, its completely devoid of any intellectual depth, utterly inane, anyone with a passing knowledge of both groups, their motivations, could see that, self loathing apologism at best.
    Absolam wrote: »
    Nevertheless, the Volunteers in the Rising had arguably less of a mandate from the people of Ireland, and about as much moral justification, as the Provisional IRA did. The only difference being that so far historians have placed the Republicans of 1916 as heroes, and the Republicans of 1972 as terrorists. Realistically, much as I am happy to live in an Irish Republic and grateful to the combatants of 1916 for what they brought about, it would be delusional to imagine they were any better than al Qaeda, ISIS or any other political organisation with military capability; we just agree with what they (or some of them) wanted, and at the end of the day that makes all the difference. To us.

    I see this comparison popping up time and time again, its utter nonsense, not every self proclaimed "freedom fighter", or anointed in the case of ISIS or Al Qaeda, can be compared to one another. The IRA were fighting against an imperial power and colonists, thats it. They were not bombing German protestants or fighting to establish overseas independent Catholphates in whatever states happens to have a large number of people of Irish descent. There are so many things wrong with the comparison I could go on for far longer than paragraph.


  • Options
    #78
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    colonists
    How many generations do you think it takes before the Ulster people can be seen as "at home" in their own homeland? IMO after a generation or two, and certainly after several hundred years, the land belongs to whoever lives there.

    The people who built Newgrange were not Gaelic, they themselves were overwhelmed by Celtic culture and colonists. The age of Gaelic dominance lasted a little over 1000 years in Ireland, a short time in the grand scheme of things.
    Integration and compromise is the key thing when more than one culture is involved, and polarisation is to be avoided. Otherwise there will be trouble and strife.

    The USA is an example of a country where integration is a high priority. Canada is an example of a country where the French and British factions never fully integrated, but learned to compromise.

    The armed 1916 and 1970's campaigns in Ireland both achieved polarisation. Integration and compromise went out the window.

    We'll never know for sure what compromise solution might have been achieved at the end of WW1, whether it could have been a 32 county solution, or whether it could have developed into a fully secular republic


  • Options
    #79
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    I often wondered was that whole banning the angelus thing meant that they're in favour of banning church bells at midday too.

    Excuse the pun, " nothing is sacred where AI is concerned"....


  • Options
    #80
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    Atomic Pineapple wrote:
    How does state funded media broadcasting a daily dose of religious propaganda equate to freedom of speech?

    If you think the broadcast of the angelus is religious propaganda you're looking into things too much.

    You're free to detach from it or turn it off.


  • Options
    #81
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Stealthfins wrote: »
    I often wondered was that whole banning the angelus thing meant that they're in favour of banning church bells at midday too.

    Excuse the pun, " nothing is sacred where AI is concerned"....

    I wasn't aware of tax payer money being used to fund the ringing of church bells each day in churchs?

    The angelus on tv/radio however is completely funded by the tax payer, its miss use of tax payer funds for a specific faith. Unless you think RTE should also broadcast the call to prayer for other faiths...seems only fair right?

    If the catholic church want to separately fund the angelus air time and pay RTE for it then by all means they can pay for the advert to be made and pay RTE to broadcast it for them each and every day. I'd have less of an issue with this.

    Though ideally the state broadcaster should not be used as a soapbox for any faith,


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »


    That mandate came in the 1918 election and was indeed ignored in London and at that point there can be little justification (imho) for quibbling about the use of arms to enable the democratically elected Dail exercise its powers.

    You need to read a history book, 3 times the people of Ireland had taken their mandate to London prior to this and 3 times it was rejected, once by the great bastion of democracy the House of Lords and once by threat of military mutiny. The Irish mandate was well at truly bust come 1916.
    recidite wrote:
    We'll never know for sure what compromise solution might have been achieved at the end of WW1, whether it could have been a 32 county solution, or whether it could have developed into a fully secular republic
    Fantasyland


  • Options
    #83
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Stealthfins wrote: »
    If you think the broadcast of the angelus is religious propaganda you're looking into things too much.

    What purpose does having it on national television every single day serve then? Is it as a reminder?
    Stealthfins wrote: »
    You're free to detach from it or turn it off.

    I am indeed, that is a non issue though, I don't care if the angelus is played on TV, the church are free to pay for any ad time they need, the issue is the cost is actually placed on me as a tax payer to pay for something that goes against my beliefs, again no issue with this as long as the national broadcaster gives equal free time to the promotion of my beliefs and those of other beliefs also, but it doesn't.


  • Options
    #84
    Hotei
    Closed Accounts Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Hotei


    recedite wrote: »
    How many generations do you think it takes before the Ulster people can be seen as "at home" in their own homeland? IMO after a generation or two, and certainly after several hundred years, the land belongs to whoever lives there.

    The people who built Newgrange were not Gaelic, they themselves were overwhelmed by Celtic culture and colonists. The age of Gaelic dominance lasted a little over 1000 years in Ireland, a short time in the grand scheme of things.
    Integration and compromise is the key thing when more than one culture is involved, and polarisation is to be avoided. Otherwise there will be trouble and strife.

    The USA is an example of a country where integration is a high priority. Canada is an example of a country where the French and British factions never fully integrated, but learned to compromise.

    The armed 1916 and 1970's campaigns in Ireland both achieved polarisation. Integration and compromise went out the window.

    We'll never know for sure what compromise solution might have been achieved at the end of WW1, whether it could have been a 32 county solution, or whether it could have developed into a fully secular republic

    It might surprise you to know that polarisation did exist in Ireland prior to 1916, and never more so than under the thumb of the British. There was no compromising with the British either - it was their way or no way (the signing of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty is a perfect case in point; partition wasn't a compromise). Integration? Our forebears were not treated as equals in their own land. While I agree with some of your comments in this post, I can't agree with them all.


  • Options
    #85
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Hotei wrote: »
    It might surprise you to know that polarisation did exist in Ireland prior to 1916, and never more so than under the thumb of the British. There was no compromising with the British either - it was their way or no way (the signing of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty is a perfect case in point; partition wasn't a compromise). Integration? Our forebears were not treated as equals in their own land. While I agree with some of your comments in this post, I can't agree with them all.

    It seems to be the mantra of some people that Irish history only begins in 1916, before that there was no legitimisation of violence,no undemocratic actions, no polarisation, the RCC as an organisation didn't seem to exist, the same as how the Troubles only begins with IRA bombings, before that there was simply nothing.


  • Options
    #86
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Some serious spin being applied by the IT there.

    He's right in that it's ridiculous we have a commemoration of an event taking place at the wrong time for no other reason than the religious event which happened to occur at the same time has moved.

    I don't think this is historically accurate.

    It's clear that Pearse chose Easter to stage the Rising because of its religious connotations (even if, in the view of many Christians, he was being pretty blasphemous in doing so).

    It makes more sense to acknowledge the rebels' deliberate choice of Easter than to celebrate the rising on the 24th of April because Easter Monday happened to occur on that date in 1916.


  • Options
    #87
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    Cabaal wrote:
    The angelus on tv/radio however is completely funded by the tax payer, its miss use of tax payer funds for a specific faith. Unless you think RTE should also broadcast the call to prayer for other faiths...seems only fair right?

    Very expensive for the recording of a few bells.

    That would go down very well on Monty python lol

    Tax payers money on a repetitive Bell lol


  • Options
    #88
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    Cabaal wrote:
    Though ideally the state broadcaster should not be used as a soapbox for any faith,

    I agree with you there.
    It's not fair to other people of other faiths,or people who don't want to hear it.

    It's hard to please everyone,I don't watch much TV to be honest.
    And hardly ever hear the angelus bells.


  • Options
    #89
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    recedite wrote: »
    How many generations do you think it takes before the Ulster people can be seen as "at home" in their own homeland? IMO after a generation or two, and certainly after several hundred years, the land belongs to whoever lives there.

    Going by your argument, what are the demographics of the Ulster again? It wasnt totally ethnically cleansed, though they tried their best, there are still a large contingent of Irish people living there.

    Ulster is not the "homeland" of people who view themselves as British subjects, their home is from wherever in Britain they emanated from.

    You cannot immigrate to another country, expell the natives and then suddenly declare that country as "my homeland".


  • Options
    #90
    Atomic Pineapple
    Registered Users Posts: 18,272 ✭✭✭✭Atomic Pineapple


    Stealthfins wrote: »
    Very expensive for the recording of a few bells.

    That would go down very well on Monty python lol

    Tax payers money on a repetitive Bell lol

    That bell is going to cost us €20000 to keep. I'm sure that budget would go down very well on a Monty Python set indeed.

    Then there's the lost revenue from the advertising time being taken up.

    It's a total waste of money for something an alarm does.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Birdie Num Num
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Birdie Num Num


    "The Irish Government is reinforcing the religious connotations of the rising by marking its anniversary on the wrong date. The 1916 rising began on 24 April 1916. The Government is marking its centenary four weeks early, on 27 March 2016. The reason for using the wrong date is to make the commemorations coincide with the Christian holiday of Easter"

    So why does AI celebrate Secular Sunday? Why not Secular Monday or Secular Wednesday? ...trying to coincide with the Christian day of worship perhaps?


Advertisement