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Dual Players - Discussion

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  • 22-03-2016 3:26pm
    #1
    k.p.h
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭


    Just wondering what peoples opinions were on dual players, especially at underage level.

    Liam Cahill, Tipperary minor manager has made his stance clear this season, it's one or the other but not both.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/pick-hurling-or-football-liam-cahill-tells-tipperary-minors-388774.html

    I can completely understand his point, especially as not having all his players fully prepared for last years All Ireland minor Hurling final.

    The point has to be made though that besides the obvious problems with logistics, diversification has been proven by the sports scientists out there as a large factor in athletes reaching elite level.

    Few sports like Gymnastics and Ice Skating require early specialization. Still, the question remains shoud under 18's be forced to play one sport or another ?


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    #2
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I'd imagine it's frustrating for a coaching team to pump a lot of time and resource into a young player only to have him sail off to the other code.


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    #3
    Corcaigh84
    Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Corcaigh84


    Funny how in the 'professional' age of the GAA, the demands are too high on players to survive duality, precisely because they're not actual professionals.

    No way a Teddy Mac or even a Sean Og could survive these days.


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    #4
    k.p.h
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭k.p.h


    Bambi wrote: »
    I'd imagine it's frustrating for a coaching team to pump a lot of time and resource into a young player only to have him sail off to the other code.

    I can definitely understand that, but I feel at underage level it is a bit constricting especially as many young athletes have the potential to excel at many different sports.

    I have strong enough feeling towards this as extensive studies have proven playing multiple sports will generally make the persona better athlete.

    I'm just wondering if making them specialize at minor level is a little premature and maybe should wait until the step up to u21 and senior.


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    #5
    Mehapoy
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Mehapoy


    k.p.h wrote: »
    Just wondering what peoples opinions were on dual players, especially at underage level.

    Liam Cahill, Tipperary minor manager has made his stance clear this season, it's one or the other but not both.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/pick-hurling-or-football-liam-cahill-tells-tipperary-minors-388774.html

    I can completely understand his point, especially as not having all his players fully prepared for last years All Ireland minor Hurling final.

    The point has to be made though that besides the obvious problems with logistics, diversification has been proven by the sports scientists out there as a large factor in athletes reaching elite level.

    Few sports like Gymnastics and Ice Skating require early specialization. Still, the question remains shoud under 18's be forced to play one sport or another ?
    I think its inevitable, with development squads up along and the amouny of preparation even at minor nowadays, that you can play both at inter county level. There's the whole burnout debate and scheduling of games to suit a very tiny percentage of players playing both...better off do well at one game and be burned out by mid 20s after trying to play both at that level.
    Fair play to Cahill for standing up for what he believes in and coming out and addressing it.


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    #6
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,123 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    thefloss wrote: »
    Funny how in the 'professional' age of the GAA, the demands are too high on players to survive duality, precisely because they're not actual professionals.

    No way a Teddy Mac or even a Sean Og could survive these days.

    But yet there are still dual players scattered around the place.


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    #7
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,853 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    slight tangent, but next year theres going to be an increase in dual weekends in the allianz leagues meaning at senior level lads will have to pick one or the other, if only for the league


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    #8
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    k.p.h wrote: »
    I can definitely understand that, but I feel at underage level it is a bit constricting especially as many young athletes have the potential to excel at many different sports.

    I have strong enough feeling towards this as extensive studies have proven playing multiple sports will generally make the persona better athlete.

    I'm just wondering if making them specialize at minor level is a little premature and maybe should wait until the step up to u21 and senior.

    I'd agree with that too. I think it is too much to ask of at senior level and by that stage you'd want to know which one you want to play the whole time. But up to minor I dont see an issue with dual players. It can work and has been shown to work well when operated properly. It's easy to blame the other code when a team fails or loses, but ultimately it isnt down to how many times the player misses a training or game due to the other sport but the actual ability of the whole team.


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    #9
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Tipp got to the All-Ireland in both codes at minor last year and performed very poorly in both finals. They had quite a large amount of dual players. I am unsure how much if any the dual player was an issue.
    I do find it hard to believe that particularly in hurling the team with players than can do twice as much training surely has the advantage.

    Last year was probably a special case given the amount of dual players and the fact that both teams reached the All-Ireland accentuated it.
    Mentally not to mind physically it must have been really hard to lose one final and try and pick it up to contest another.


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    #10
    Xenophile
    Registered Users Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Xenophile


    Already posted in Tipp GAA before I saw this thread.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99154718#post99154718

    The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.



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    #11
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    robbiezero wrote: »
    Tipp got to the All-Ireland in both codes at minor last year and performed very poorly in both finals. They had quite a large amount of dual players. I am unsure how much if any the dual player was an issue.
    I do find it hard to believe that particularly in hurling the team with players than can do twice as much training surely has the advantage.

    Last year was probably a special case given the amount of dual players and the fact that both teams reached the All-Ireland accentuated it.
    Mentally not to mind physically it must have been really hard to lose one final and try and pick it up to contest another.

    so would you consider a minor hurling football and hurling county getting to both AI finals as failure or success? What is the measure of success of a county at minor?


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    #12
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    bruschi wrote: »
    so would you consider a minor hurling football and hurling county getting to both AI finals as failure or success? What is the measure of success of a county at minor?

    For Tipperary, winning the hurling All-Ireland.


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    #13
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    robbiezero wrote: »
    For Tipperary, winning the hurling All-Ireland.

    well I think that's where our thoughts would vastly differ so. My perception of success from a minor team is to advance and fulfil potential as much as possible and to be able to provide a progression to senior level. It's often said that you only get on average 3 players from any given years crop of minors, so I dont see how 7 or 8 dual players affects this.

    Tipperary have had some amount of failures considering what they have not won by your standards.


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    #14
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    bruschi wrote: »
    well I think that's where our thoughts would vastly differ so. My perception of success from a minor team is to advance and fulfil potential as much as possible and to be able to provide a progression to senior level. It's often said that you only get on average 3 players from any given years crop of minors, so I dont see how 7 or 8 dual players affects this.

    Tipperary have had some amount of failures considering what they have not won by your standards.

    Yes. 4 minors in 40 years is a very poor return, mirroring our very poor return at senior level.

    Players that will choose football at minor would more than likely choose it at senior too, so we are not going to be losing any players that would have benefited the senior hurling team. Indeed they are likely to be taking up the places of players that might have a preference for hurling.
    The only minor team we have gotten a decent crop from in recent years is the All-Ireland winning ones of 2006/2007.

    I'm not completely sold on what Cahill has done and it may be an overreaction to what might have been a rare set of circumstances which was to have 8 dual players and for both teams to reach the finals of their championships, but certainly if things were to continue similar to that vein I have no doubt that our hurling prospects would be affected.


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    #15
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    Asking 16 year old's to give up a sport is crazy in my opinion,These lads are still developing their love for sport and forcing someone to choose is very unfair,Make allowances and if the lad is good enough for both panels,Let them play.It's only for one year


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    #16
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    Asking 16 year old's to give up a sport is crazy in my opinion,These lads are still developing their love for sport and forcing someone to choose is very unfair,Make allowances and if the lad is good enough for both panels,Let them play.It's only for one year

    No one is being asked to give up a sport. If the young lads want to play that sport at an elite level they are being asked to give it their full commitment. If they don't want to do that, they can still play it away for their schools, clubs etc, just not for that particular team.


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    #17
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    robbiezero wrote: »
    No one is being asked to give up a sport. If the young lads want to play that sport at an elite level they are being asked to give it their full commitment. If they don't want to do that, they can still play it away for their schools, clubs etc, just not for that particular team.

    But if a guy is good enough to play on both minor teams,Is it not in the best interest of the county to keep this guy involved in both panels until he makes a call on it.This Football v Hurling - Win at all costs - is totally against what we as an association should be thriving for


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    #18
    Green_Tae
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Green_Tae


    I really think minor and u21 players should be allowed to play both codes.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/tipperary-chairman-backs-decision-to-make-minors-choose-a-code-388977.html


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    #19
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,358 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    But if a guy is good enough to play on both minor teams,Is it not in the best interest of the county to keep this guy involved in both panels until he makes a call on it.This Football v Hurling - Win at all costs - is totally against what we as an association should be thriving for

    In general probably yes. But how do you properly prepare a hurling team in a hurling county for an All-Ireland with 8 of your team giving half of its time to another code. If it was 1 or 2 or even 3 guys it would be manageable I think, but not 8, particularly when these 8 are probably your better players too.


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    #20
    Xenophile
    Registered Users Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Xenophile


    Green Tae wrote: »
    I really think minor and u21 players should be allowed to play both codes.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/tipperary-chairman-backs-decision-to-make-minors-choose-a-code-388977.html


    It is not right to be so dogmatic and put the gun to young peoples heads, young people need to have the right and express themselves in every way they can.

    Let the Manager have the courage to chose his or her players without making threats and in doing so let the Manger show the utmost of respect to the youth.

    The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.



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    #21
    k.p.h
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭k.p.h


    Some good points here, I'm opposed to the ban which the Tipperary Chairman has come out supporting as of this morning.

    Only opposed as in reality playing both sports at minor level would not hinder there development in either. Through numerous studies in the US where college sports is a big thing, they found that those who specialized after 16-18ys performed better than those who specialized younger.

    They found that playing more sport's increased a number of measurable abilities they can improve on, mentality, body strength, even football and hurling being played on the same pitch leads to greater spacial awareness.

    Big fan of Cahills, he's a great manager, without a doubt he is going to be instrumental in bringing through the players of the future for Tipperary.

    Being from a neighboring club I know the locality, Ballingarry don't play football at the same level as Hurling. Where as Moyle Rovers had 2 young players captin both the hurling and football team at inter-county level last year. It's all down to tradition within the county and clubs.

    The real fact of the matter is there is incredible Footballing talent in Tipperary that is quietly suppressed for the "cliche" home of hurling. It feels as if we are allowing this to filter down to another generation of young players.

    Cahill is right in many aspects, and as a manager might be doing the right thing in regards to his teams ability to win a championship.

    I feel though he is not doing anything right by the player though .. After all, this would have never happened under these new rule's.

    Dual players :)

    Tipperary chairman

    Mick OSullivan


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    #22
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    k.p.h wrote: »



    Cahill is right in many aspects, and as a manager might be doing the right thing in regards to his teams ability to win a championship.

    I feel though he is not doing anything right by the player though[/URL]

    This is exactly the problem,Managers feel that they must at all costs do what is needed for their team to win.

    Which is OK until you throw dual players into the bargain,Players playing with other teams such as college,school,U21,Divisional etc.. then the player ends up suffering


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    #23
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    Asking 16 year old's to give up a sport is crazy in my opinion,These lads are still developing their love for sport and forcing someone to choose is very unfair,Make allowances and if the lad is good enough for both panels,Let them play.It's only for one year


    100%


    They're young fellas ffs, not getting a black penny out of it and they'll be finished when they're 27/28 and Cahill and no one else will be knocking on their door to see how they're getting on.

    Gilroy gave ultimatum to Rory O'Carroll in 2010 that cost him an under 21 Leinster hurling medal.

    Now, he's away off in Australia or New Zealand.

    Let them do as they wish.


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    #24
    Xenophile
    Registered Users Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Xenophile


    There is more to sport than winning. Take into consideration that Cahill and the County Chairman in many cases are asking 16 year olds to almost give up friendship with their peers, many of whom have been in school together with for years. Cahill could do well to have a chat with the Clonmel Commercials manager who is headmaster in a couple of schools in Clonmel including the Gael Scoil, Charlie McGeever has a good understanding of the youth.

    The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.



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    #25
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Xenophile wrote: »
    There is more to sport than winning. Take into consideration that Cahill and the County Chairman in many cases are asking 16 year olds to almost give up friendship with their peers, many of whom have been in school together with for years. Cahill could do well to have a chat with the Clonmel Commercials manager who is headmaster in a couple of schools in Clonmel including the Gael Scoil, Charlie McGeever has a good understanding of the youth.



    There is a touch of arrogance and bullying about it all too - hurling led in Tipp perhaps as opposed to football in Dublin.


    Telling young fellas they have to play one or other sport is not on.

    Did Cahill ever hear tell of JBM, or the Foleys or Teddy Mac, or indeed Babs?


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    #26
    dobbs2210
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭dobbs2210


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    There is a touch of arrogance and bullying about it all too - hurling led in Tipp perhaps as opposed to football in Dublin.


    Telling young fellas they have to play one or other sport is not on.

    Did Cahill ever hear tell of JBM, or the Foleys or Teddy Mac, or indeed Babs?

    Maybe not comparing like with like as the physical demands of intercounty hurlers and footballers now as compared to the 80's is just simple off the scales..... that could be just one large reason why dual playing ability was no real issue back them. Games standards, physical fitness + strength, training load has dramatically increasedin recent years hence the retirement of players in both codes at earlier and earlier ages.

    With the demands of intercounty players in modern day it is simple not sustainable for players to play both codes. Maybe a year here or there and then ultimately the player will decide to go one way or another.

    Don't really know where it is all going to end.....what some players are doing is borderline crazy.


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    #27
    k.p.h
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭k.p.h


    dobbs2210 wrote: »
    With the demands of intercounty players in modern day it is simple not sustainable for players to play both codes. Maybe a year here or there and then ultimately the player will decide to go one way or another.

    Don't really know where it is all going to end.....what some players are doing is borderline crazy.

    I would agree at more senior level's, playing both can be detrimental to the players.

    At minor level I feel under supervision they should be allowed play as many sports as they like.

    In Tipperary and I guess in most country the younger athletes have potential to play rugby and soccer too. Making them make the call as to which sport they are going to specialize in at there age has to potential to stunt the growth of many Irish sports.

    With Kevin Moran, Niall Quinn, Shane Long and a host of rugby players including Ian Madigan who recently complemented his local GAA club for his development being hit also.

    I have no doubt in my mind that Cahils real motivating factor here is not only as a manager not having his players available, but also rather realizing that these guys are doing there leaving cert while juggling multiple sports.

    It's a fair point, but like the current rugby head injury debate, I feel the only way to resolve it is not by banning but rather by better management and medical advice from the people who supervise the sports themselves.


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    #28
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,208 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    But if a guy is good enough to play on both minor teams,Is it not in the best interest of the county to keep this guy involved in both panels until he makes a call on it.This Football v Hurling - Win at all costs - is totally against what we as an association should be thriving for

    What if he is good enough to be on both the hurling team and a local rugby team? Do you think the hurling manager should be fine with the player skipping training and some matches to go play rugby as well?

    Or does playing for two teams only happen within GAA codes?


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    #29
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    What if he is good enough to be on both the hurling team and a local rugby team? Do you think the hurling manager should be fine with the player skipping training and some matches to go play rugby as well?

    Or does playing for two teams only happen within GAA codes?

    There has often been a crossover with players and other sports Darren Sweetnam was playing hurling at u-16/17 and minor level with Cork while playing rugby and hockey at a high level.

    Kieran Donaghy played basketball at national level while a Kerry U21 & Minor.

    Stephen Kelly played senior football with Limerick and played AIL with Shannon

    Eoin Bradley played with Derry while playing Soccer in the Irish league.

    Currently there is a guy playing with Kerry minors and with Limerick FC u19's

    There is a bucket load of examples it's just finding the correct balance and having 2 mangers who see the bigger picture


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    #30
    Boom__Boom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    There has often been a crossover with players and other sports Darren Sweetnam was playing hurling at u-16/17 and minor level with Cork while playing rugby and hockey at a high level.

    Kieran Donaghy played basketball at national level while a Kerry U21 & Minor.

    Stephen Kelly played senior football with Limerick and played AIL with Shannon

    Eoin Bradley played with Derry while playing Soccer in the Irish league.

    Currently there is a guy playing with Kerry minors and with Limerick FC u19's

    There is a bucket load of examples it's just finding the correct balance and having 2 mangers who see the bigger picture

    Bradley is probably not that a good example as it definitely wasn't the smoothest situation.


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    #31
    citykat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    What if he is good enough to be on both the hurling team and a local rugby team? Do you think the hurling manager should be fine with the player skipping training and some matches to go play rugby as well?

    Or does playing for two teams only happen within GAA codes?

    In KilKenny, development squad players are not allowed play soccer.


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