Why do some men commit rape?

_Whimsical_ · 11-03-2016 05:30PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

That sounds like a combination of the guy not being able to read signals and the woman not being able to physically or verbally express her discomfort.

As for treating someone as a prop for sexual enjoyment, so is meeting a stranger outside a club at 3am and having sex with them.

You're presumably meeting a willing stranger though. You'd notice if that stranger is crying or shaking or visibly terrified of you at any point throughout the encounter, so terrified they can't speak or move in that moment? You're presumably still cognisant that there's another person there with you and you should be responding to their cues throughout the act, not just hammering away yourself as if you're with a non-sentient sack of potatoes. So it's not the same, and shouldn't be easily mistaken for a consentual mutual act.

Those men I mentioned recognised and regretted their part in those assaults so they knew afterwards something wrong had happened. You definitely shouldn't come away from a one stand thinking "gee did I get a bit carried away there? did I rape her? nah probably not" or you're doing something wrong. I'm sure there are loads who don't realise it too though which is a scary thought and no doubt drink muddies that picture even more.

And yes, those stories represent something that probably demands a change in behaviour from both men and women, although it feels uncomfortable to say that because I really don't ever believe any victim should be blamed for someone else's lack of control. However while such people exist as women we have to protect ourselves from them where possible, through very clear communication both in word and deed,though I doubt that's always enough in these cases. That said, to do that requires a certain fear that all men are potential rapists. It feels like that is unfair to both sexes.

Ben Gadot · 11-03-2016 05:50PM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

I used to think when I was a teenager - why the hell do some men rape?
Why can't they just put some money aside and go to a prostitute if they are so frustrated....

Bizarre as it sounds some people would see visiting a prostitute as the more socially reprehensible act. Whereas some think they can explain rape away in a convincing manner with a myriad of excuses, which all basically boil down to it being consensual.

Potatoeman · 11-03-2016 06:22PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

You're presumably meeting a willing stranger though. You'd notice if that stranger is crying or shaking or visibly terrified of you at any point throughout the encounter, so terrified they can't speak or move in that moment? You're presumably still cognisant that there's another person there with you and you should be responding to their cues throughout the act, not just hammering away yourself as if you're with a non-sentient sack of potatoes. So it's not the same, and shouldn't be easily mistaken for a consentual mutual act.

Those men I mentioned recognised and regretted their part in those assaults so they knew afterwards something wrong had happened. You definitely shouldn't come away from a one stand thinking "gee did I get a bit carried away there? did I rape her? nah probably not" or you're doing something wrong. I'm sure there are loads who don't realise it too though which is a scary thought and no doubt drink muddies that picture even more.

And yes, those stories represent something that probably demands a change in behaviour from both men and women, although it feels uncomfortable to say that because I really don't ever believe any victim should be blamed for someone else's lack of control. However while such people exist as women we have to protect ourselves from them where possible, through very clear communication both in word and deed,though I doubt that's always enough in these cases. That said, to do that requires a certain fear that all men are potential rapists. It feels like that is unfair to both sexes.

It should be obvious to most people but the situations you described also seemed like there was no clear refusal from the woman at any point. It was when things progressed and she was very clearly uncomfortable that the guy realised. Legally that would be very hard get a conviction even if it was taped.

The story of the guy taking the womans pants off and preforming oral on her, youre not exactly face to face during that act and did she just let him take them off? Why would she even go into a bedroom with him? Were they kissing and thing progressed, then she froze.

What would stop these situations? Positive verbal consent needed at every stage by everyone because some guys can't read signals and some women freeze in these situations?

_Whimsical_ · 11-03-2016 07:46PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

It should be obvious to most people but the situations you described also seemed like there was no clear refusal from the woman at any point. It was when things progressed and she was very clearly uncomfortable that the guy realised. Legally that would be very hard get a conviction even if it was taped.

The story of the guy taking the womans pants off and preforming oral on her, youre not exactly face to face during that act and did she just let him take them off? Why would she even go into a bedroom with him? Were they kissing and thing progressed, then she froze.

What would stop these situations? Positive verbal consent needed at every stage by everyone because some guys can't read signals and some women freeze in these situations?

I can't remember the exact details, I wasn't scrutinising it to see if a conviction could be secured, I'm just taking the word of a person who himself believed he had gone much further with a girl than she was ok with, regretted it and himself felt it could've been classified as assault. He also admitted with several years hindsight that it was weird that after seeing her visibly shaking and upset that he left her fully believing that in a minute she would be looking for him to have sex. I think that point particularly illustrated that he'd lost touch with the situation, that he didn't understand a very obvious "I am upset, I am afraid of you" and still interpreted it as "I'm horny and despite me being really upset I want you really". I wouldn't feel confident someone like that would not have heard a no earlier in the encounter but thought oh I'll just keep going and get her in the mood.

And yes stronger verbal communication is needed to prevent misunderstandings happen.
I'm not sure though that the majority of these men would not still have really heard a no or stopped easily at an agreed line if they wanted to take it further in the moment. Again we aren't talking about men in general, we are talking about a small amount of men who admit to assault. I do think the thread and some articles about the thread are worth reading and I'd be interested to know what you think of you want to do that. I'm talking from the point of having it read it a while back and articles about it recently. Those assaults were only one type that particularly stuck out for me in it.

The Black Oil · 12-03-2016 08:08PM

An interesting one here...

https://www.thejournal.ie/book-banned-ireland-2656487-Mar2016/

A BOOK HAS been banned in Ireland for the first time in 18 years.
The Raped Little Runaway by Jean Martin was banned on the grounds of indecency or obscenity, as set out in the Censorship of Publications Act.

It includes graphic descriptions of a child being raped.

Not sure if there is the best approach to take. We've a fairly long tradition of censorship in Ireland, obviously. I've a fairly vague memory of reading about some of the sexual activities from ancient Greece in college. Never graphic, but still somewhat alarming and unsettling. Of course, given what goes on with some college campuses these days who knows what would happen if such readings were handed out in today's social media generation.

Can't see the book on Amazon...will be interesting to see if the censors face any criticism over it. Not that I particularly want to read an account of child rape, what comes before the courts in terms of incest, etc, is real life and should be heard. Presumably it was just how it was written was what led to the ban.

12-03-2016 08:12PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

An interesting one here...

Not sure if there is the best approach to take. We've a fairly long tradition of censorship in Ireland, obviously. I've a fairly vague memory of reading about some of the sexual activities from ancient Greece in college. Never graphic, but still somewhat alarming and unsettling. Of course, given what goes on with some college campuses these days who knows what would happen if such readings were handed out in today's social media generation.

Can't see the book on Amazon...will be interesting to see if the censors face any criticism over it. Not that I particularly want to read an account of child rape, what comes before the courts in terms of incest, etc, is real life and should be heard. Presumably it was just how it was written was what led to the ban.

If it contains a description of child rape it could have been banned under the child porn laws.

It's fair enough, if it was likely to be used by paedophiles. Even cartoon depictions of child rape are banned, for the same reason.

The Black Oil · 12-03-2016 08:41PM

Fair enough if came across as a manual, of sorts.

silverharp · 15-03-2016 02:57PM

here is a case that highlights the star chamber approach to things on US campuses

Yale basketball captain expelled based on evidence standard that starts at 31% confidence

Yale basketball captain expelled based on evidence standard that starts at 31% confidence - The College Fix

The Yale Daily News has confirmed what everyone suspected: Basketball team captain Jack Montague mysteriously left Yale last month because the school found him responsible for sexual assault, despite him not being under investigation by campus or local police.

Montague and his family aren’t talking yet because lawyers told them to wait, according to Montague’s father. But the News reveals something shocking about the system under which Montague was investigated:

When a member of the Yale community files a formal complaint of sexual misconduct, the [University-Wide Committee on Sexual Misconduct] appoints an impartial fact-finder to interview relevant parties and compile a report of the events in question. After the report is completed and presented to the UWC secretary, the UWC chair … selects a five-member panel from the larger 30-member UWC body to conduct a hearing. …

After the hearing, the panel votes via secret ballot on whether the respondent has violated University policy; if a majority of panel members believe such a violation has occurred, the panel recommends a penalty.

Yale’s standard of evidence has been preponderance (“more likely than not”) for nearly five years – ever since the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights threatened colleges with yanked federal funding if they didn’t use preponderance in sexual-misconduct investigations.

So what’s the minimum threshold under which a student can be found responsible for a heinous crime at Yale? Three out of five people who are 51 percent sure that the violation happened: That works out to 30.6 percent.

There are two checks on this system – the dean of the college, who can overturn or modify both the conclusion and recommended sanctions that were issued based on a 31-percent confidence level of an accused student’s guilt, and the provost, who hears appeals of the dean’s decisions. In this case, Dean Jonathan Holloway and Provost Ben Polak apparently let things stand.

One of Montague’s friends is aghast at the process that led to his expulsion:

Although the UWC’s procedures are all available online, their actual implementation remains largely opaque, as all formal proceedings are kept entirely confidential.

Blake Thomson ’16, a childhood friend of Montague who said he knows the facts of the complaint and subsequent case, wrote in a statement to the News that he believes the UWC’s policies have multiple “flaws and controversies.”

“Those that were close to the situation are frustrated with our school, because we witnessed how the UWC policies go against established law and strip an accused student of due process and any form of proper defense one might receive in a real court,” Thomson said.

Yale refuses to talk about Montague’s case on the grounds that it would violate the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, but if the expelled student sues the school for violating due process, it will undoubtedly open up.

Interestingly, Montague’s accuser is known to the Daily News, which refuses to identify the student. That suggests someone violated confidentiality rules in the investigation, as one commenter on the Daily News story says.

PopePalpatine · 16-03-2016 12:16PM

As ****ty as this guy's situation is (assuming he's innocent), what exactly does it have to do with the thread title?

Lux23 · 16-03-2016 12:50PM

I honestly think that some men are very unsure as to what rape is. I have had arguments with friends, relatives and even sexual partners on what constitutes rape. I have heard many reasonably intelligent men argue the following;

1. If she is drunk and flirting with me then it could never be rape
2. If we are in a relationship and she is drunk/asleep it is OK
3. Consent doesn't have to be express, it can be implied
4. It is not really rape if you know the person
5. She was only 15, but looked like a grown woman and wanted to have sex with me
6. She was having sex with that guy in the same room so obviously she wanted to have sex with me too

So I think that is why some men rape because they really don't understand how consent works. There is a story on thejournal.ie today about a guy who was sentenced to 15 months for having sex with his girlfriend while she slept. Lots of comments from men (and women) who saying that isn't rape or that they don't understand the case. And we question the need for consent classes?

Lu Tze · 16-03-2016 01:08PM

Lux23 wrote: »

3. Consent doesn't have to be express, it can be implied

I'm surprised you got the responses you did, this however I would feel is somewhat contentious.

Have you ever had sex without giving specific written or verbal consent? Have you ever had sex without receiving specific written or verbal consent from your partner?

Potatoeman · 16-03-2016 01:26PM

Lux23 wrote: »

I honestly think that some men are very unsure as to what rape is. I have had arguments with friends, relatives and even sexual partners on what constitutes rape. I have heard many reasonably intelligent men argue the following;

1. If she is drunk and flirting with me then it could never be rape
2. If we are in a relationship and she is drunk/asleep it is OK
3. Consent doesn't have to be express, it can be implied
4. It is not really rape if you know the person
5. She was only 15, but looked like a grown woman and wanted to have sex with me
6. She was having sex with that guy in the same room so obviously she wanted to have sex with me too

So I think that is why some men rape because they really don't understand how consent works. There is a story on thejournal.ie today about a guy who was sentenced to 15 months for having sex with his girlfriend while she slept. Lots of comments from men (and women) who saying that isn't rape or that they don't understand the case. And we question the need for consent classes?

Some of those are clearcut and others are not. For example 3, enthusiastic consent is a form of implied consent. Expressed consent always seems to be the mans responsibility to get, it never seems to be the womans. If a woman takes a guy home tears his clothes off, is it still his responsibility or hers?

tritium · 16-03-2016 02:18PM

Lux23 wrote: »

I honestly think that some men are very unsure as to what rape is. I have had arguments with friends, relatives and even sexual partners on what constitutes rape. I have heard many reasonably intelligent men argue the following;

1. If she is drunk and flirting with me then it could never be rape
2. If we are in a relationship and she is drunk/asleep it is OK
3. Consent doesn't have to be express, it can be implied
4. It is not really rape if you know the person
5. She was only 15, but looked like a grown woman and wanted to have sex with me
6. She was having sex with that guy in the same room so obviously she wanted to have sex with me too

So I think that is why some men rape because they really don't understand how consent works. There is a story on thejournal.ie today about a guy who was sentenced to 15 months for having sex with his girlfriend while she slept. Lots of comments from men (and women) who saying that isn't rape or that they don't understand the case. And we question the need for consent classes?

I think that its not just men who don't fully understand consent or what rape is. As I said in an earlier post here I'm slowly coming around to the idea of consent classes for everyone (the what rather than the how BTW given how certain groups seem to still be pushing agendas with this sadly).

Its interesting (and understandable) how much of a gender difference there is on this subject in my experience. In those more ambiguous scenarios women seem to often argue the the man knew full well what he was doing while men are more open to the idea that there was at least ambiguity. This is important because a lot of the push to change rape law comes from only one direction, overwhelmingly female oriented (understandably). Take the question of an allegation of rape where both parties have been drinking (drunken consent)- how can one party be asked to be responsible for their actions in spite of drink while the other is excused their actions because of drink.

The definition of rape differs so widely across the globe that's its clear that even legislators can't fully agree. What's the 'right' definition -god knows, you'll get a different answer depending who you ask. Maybe teaching people (male and female) about awareness and responsibility, both for others and themselves, might be a good start

Lux23 · 16-03-2016 03:06PM

Lu Tze wrote: »

I'm surprised you got the responses you did, this however I would feel is somewhat contentious.

Have you ever had sex without giving specific written or verbal consent? Have you ever had sex without receiving specific written or verbal consent from your partner?

In my experience, men often said, is this OK? If it was a nod or yes go on head was enough. Is it really that hard for a man or woman to say, is it OK what I am doing here? A few simple words.

Tipperary Fairy · 16-03-2016 03:12PM

It's not hard to do, the point is people (men and women) don't. I've never asked for consent. Does that make me a rapist?

silverharp · 16-03-2016 03:24PM

Lux23 wrote: »

In my experience, men often said, is this OK? If it was a nod or yes go on head was enough. Is it really that hard for a man or woman to say, is it OK what I am doing here? A few simple words.

Its not the point whether its hard or not, the question is do you mean to change the law so that couples have to follow a script? Or that the state runs national etiquette classes that are manditory.

Lu Tze · 16-03-2016 03:43PM

Lux23 wrote: »

In my experience, men often said, is this OK? If it was a nod or yes go on head was enough. Is it really that hard for a man or woman to say, is it OK what I am doing here? A few simple words.

I take it no then is the answer to both questions? There has always been verbal or written consent from both partners?

I've been in a relationship for a long time. On a night in, things progress or they dont generally without explicit consent as you put it. Have I been raped? Was my partner?

Lux23 · 16-03-2016 04:16PM

I don't if you were raped or not.

Really what harm is there in following a five second script? Would it make a huge difference in your life? No. It just seems like common sense to me, especially in situations when you barely know the person or drink is involved.

Lu Tze · 16-03-2016 04:19PM

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't if you were raped or not.

Really what harm is there in following a five second script? Would it make a huge difference in your life? No. It just seems like common sense to me, especially in situations when you barely know the person or drink is involved.

Fair enough, have you always followed this 5 second script?

Chemical Byrne · 16-03-2016 04:29PM

I have often found myself asking "is this OK" or thinking of it when engaging in sex with my gf. I feel terrible asking but I also feel reluctant to do things without asking. It makes me feel very ashamed about the whole initiation of sex, to the point that these days I no longer proactively initiate sex anymore so as to avoid facing the issue.

The Black Oil · 16-03-2016 08:09PM

Lux23 wrote: »

So I think that is why some men rape because they really don't understand how consent works. There is a story on thejournal.ie today about a guy who was sentenced to 15 months for having sex with his girlfriend while she slept. Lots of comments from men (and women) who saying that isn't rape or that they don't understand the case. And we question the need for consent classes?

I read the update on that particular case on the Irish Times yesterday. The original sentence, 7 years - all suspended, was utterly baffling.

Today I listened to Roisin Ingle interview (from July last) the victim Niamh. By her account he was a very controlling individual. It may be one of the most powerful interviews I've ever listened to. Once she went into the detail about his manipulation and semen, etc, I was somewhat speechless. Add on to that his lack of remorse and later on during the legal process, people basically sticking up for him. I thought Niamh's self-awareness and dignity was quite extraordinary.

I cannot I recommend strongly enough that everyone listen to it.

Interview link.

Pawwed Rig · 16-03-2016 08:36PM

Lux23 wrote: »

Really what harm is there in following a five second script? Would it make a huge difference in your life? No.

It would really destroy any spontaneity in the sexual act if you both had to have a continuous dialogue about what you're going to do next.

Can I nibble here?
Can I lick there?
Can this fit in here?

Most of the fun in sex is wondering what's going to happen next. We may be the first generation in the history of humanity to lose that.

Pat Mustard · 16-03-2016 09:46PM

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I have often found myself asking "is this OK" or thinking of it when engaging in sex with my gf. I feel terrible asking but I also feel reluctant to do things without asking. It makes me feel very ashamed about the whole initiation of sex, to the point that these days I no longer proactively initiate sex anymore so as to avoid facing the issue.

Mod:

Chemical Byrne

You are trolling again as you have often done in this forum and across multiple forums on this site.

Your persistent trolling has become a regular source of low grade irritation.

There will be no card or ban for you on this occasion. However, if you post just one more piece of nonsense, you will receive a long ban from this forum.

Please consider this message to be your final warning.

Please do not respond to this message.

Lisacatlover · 17-03-2016 05:33AM

Lux23 wrote: »

In my experience, men often said, is this OK? If it was a nod or yes go on head was enough. Is it really that hard for a man or woman to say, is it OK what I am doing here? A few simple words.

Whoa whoa whoa, that sounds like they only asked once at the start then just accepted a non verbal highly subjective head movement as confirmation? That sounds a bit dodgy. The sneaky, lazy, horny, rapey, so and sos.

In future make clear to any partner before anything physical begins that repeated, ongoing requests for consent should be sought before during and after any sexual movement or act and that only clear, positive, enthusiastic verbal affirmation is a green light.

Pawwed Rig · 17-03-2016 09:16AM

Lisacatlover wrote: »

In future make clear to any partner before anything physical begins that repeated, ongoing requests for consent should be sought before during and after any sexual movement or act and that only clear, positive, enthusiastic verbal affirmation is a green light.

Also an in depth pre plan of exactly what is to be done should be discussed to ensure neither party strays beyond the confines of what is expected.

Do people really need to be taught to say No where they are in an uncomfortable situation? Forget consent classes - this should be taught by parents when the child is a toddler.

Wibbs · 17-03-2016 10:48AM

Over a decade ago this was a joke...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo4568PIRnk

Jesus. How far down the rabbit hole of nonsense do we have to go? It's getting beyond ridiculous at this stage.

The Black Oil · 18-03-2016 12:14PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do people really need to be taught to say No where they are in an uncomfortable situation? Forget consent classes - this should be taught by parents when the child is a toddler.

It's as much about boundaries as it is saying no, though one might say that saying no, being assertive and setting boundaries are similar.

You sometimes hear stories where a person felt pressured to go along with things because of either social expectations or not wanting to let the other person down, or maybe because they heard this is what happens, from their friends (thinking of young people, in particular). Or the partner was manipulative and forced the situation. After a certain point it must be similar to drowning or being suffocated. Little or no way of reaching above the water or calling for help.

Let's say there's a situation where a top layer of clothing (not underwear) is removed with consent, but the woman doesn't want to take things any further. Where a no is said, the man who is hearing that must stop and I assume most men would. Being uncomfortable is as much psychological as it is physical and I suspect the internal voice that we all have, sometimes doubting/self-doubt, has trouble asserting itself, for some people. Add in the fact that sex ed at secondary school is probably still quite patchy in some places, which doesn't help.

eviltwin · 18-03-2016 12:22PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do people really need to be taught to say No where they are in an uncomfortable situation? Forget consent classes - this should be taught by parents when the child is a toddler.

It should be that simple but depending on the dynamics of the relationship and the mindset of the woman it might not always be that easy.

I used to work with domestic violence victims and one of my first clients was a woman who had been beaten by her ex. He'd arrived at her house one night demanding to be let in. She opened the door to admit him knowing he was going to attack her. My initial response was why did you let him in? I couldn't understand her doing something so stupid. She explained to me that if she hadn't, if she had phoned gardai he would have come back again and beaten her even more severely, by letting him in she was actually helping herself. It took a long time for me to get my head around that but I can see the warped logic now.

I now work with victims of sexual abuse and rape and the same thing can happen, for some women its fear - he'll get what he wants regardless of what I do or say, its easier to let him do it than try to fight back. Others may do it so they can convince themselves they weren't actually raped.

It should be a case that you say no and he stops and there are guys who will do that but there will always be those who won't so its about managing the situation as best you can.

Pawwed Rig · 18-03-2016 12:42PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

You sometimes hear stories where a person felt pressured to go along with things because of either social expectations or not wanting to let the other person down, or maybe because they heard this is what happens, from their friends (thinking of young people, in particular). Or the partner was manipulative and forced the situation. After a certain point it must be similar to drowning or being suffocated. Little or no way of reaching above the water or calling for help.

How is it possible to figure out how someone else feels if they hide it? Feeling pressured to have sex yet going along with it willingly does not seem to me to be a rape however that situation is included in the rape statistics that are constantly trotted out.

eviltwin wrote: »

I now work with victims of sexual abuse and rape and the same thing can happen, for some women its fear - he'll get what he wants regardless of what I do or say, its easier to let him do it than try to fight back. Others may do it so they can convince themselves they weren't actually raped.

It should be a case that you say no and he stops and there are guys who will do that but there will always be those who won't so its about managing the situation as best you can.

You are talking about the extreme end of rape/sexual assault where there is no ambiguity about what is happening.
Now don't get me wrong, I know terrible things happen in this world and some people end up being victims. That said people need to take some responsibility for themselves and remove any ambiguity that exists. In a situation where one feels pressured or coerced then saying No will not make that situation any worse and will most likely make it better.

tritium · 18-03-2016 05:37PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

How is it possible to figure out how someone else feels if they hide it? Feeling pressured to have sex yet going along with it willingly does not seem to me to be a rape however that situation is included in the rape statistics that are constantly trotted out.

You are talking about the extreme end of rape/sexual assault where there is no ambiguity about what is happening.
Now don't get me wrong, I know terrible things happen in this world and some people end up being victims. That said people need to take some responsibility for themselves and remove any ambiguity that exists. In a situation where one feels pressured or coerced then saying No will not make that situation any worse and will most likely make it better.

This is one of the biggest issues with reporting and statistics on rape in my opinion. We routinely get a line trotted out that x% of rapists are never charged and y% of those charged avoid conviction (insert suitably large % for x and y). The reality is that's often driven by using much broader definitions of rape than would ever be applied in a legal context.

Take the first point, the number never charged - in this case we have one of two scenarios: either the event was never reported to police or it was reported and it was felt there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. In the first case we effectively rely on self reporting, without providing any context to determine if what happened could reasonably be viewed as a rape (some doubtless are and not reported for a variety of reasons, others on a dispassionate viewing doubtless aren't, and some aren't clear cut either way) . the most famous example of how dangerous this approach can be is probably Mary Koss's 1 in 4 study, still trotted out today in spite of being widely and overwhelmingly discredited, with massively flawed survey approaches.

In the second case, for a variety of reasons legal professionals don't feel the evidential threshold to prove rape exists. That's not to say that none of those cases are rape, but clearly they're not all examples either.

The non conviction scenario is equally abused. A not guilty verdict means that from a legal perspective the accused didn't commit the crime. Adding it to the rape numbers as though they just got lucky with the jury is hugely disingenuous. That's not to say some rapists don't get off, the threshold for conviction is high enough to make that a certainty (albeit for good reasons). But equally being prosecuted and being guilty are not the same thing.

As we've seen even from comments on this thread, this is one of those crimes with a significant grey area. Its perfectly possible for two people to disagree on events and honestly hold their version of events as true. Taking everybodys word on this as absolute truth in order to compile statistics has no more validity than basing them on the number of guilty pleas entered and then assuming a not guilty plea implies innocence.

Why do some men commit rape?

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