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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #3032
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Do harassment laws not already cover this?

    To be honest, I am not aware of any problem of Muslim women being approached and told to wear the Burka by others, or of ex Muslims being harmed, though that is from a position of total ignorance.

    Are we talking western countries or Muslim majority countries? The last case I came across was an ex Muslim in Sweden complaining about it because she lived in a Muslim area. I think she ended up moving in the end. Its wider than this though because I don't think any banning laws are specifically about this type situation. And for clarity the Swedish case was being hassled for not wearing a hijab

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3033
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Its best not to take feminist arguments seriously...

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3034
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    Are we talking western countries or Muslim majority countries? The last case I came across was an ex Muslim in Sweden complaining about it because she lived in a Muslim area. I think she ended up moving in the end. Its wider than this though because I don't think any banning laws are specifically about this type situation. And for clarity the Swedish case was being hassled for not wearing a hijab

    Western, liberal democracies.

    In a liberal democracy, we ought to protect the freedom of expression of the wearer (or indeed not wearer above!) of the item of clothing to make that choice to do so.

    Those that seek to impinge upon that freedom (Both Islamists decreeing that the Burka must be worn, and those calling for bans) are equally asking for that liberal democracy to become less so.


  • #3035
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,578 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    But Muslim women are being told what to wear by men,
    Religious leaders are men, men wrote the religious texts they read.

    A girl isn't just born and decides for non reason to cover her face, her reasoning is based on social pressures which originated from men. They are conditioned to think no different to this from a very young age.

    Humans are social creatures we like to interact and see each other when communicating, look at the vast majority of worldwide cultures and tribes and you'll see that covering all of your face with the exception of your eye's is extremely rare. It is not the norm in human societies.

    The only reason why its normal for some Muslims is its pushed into their brains at a young age that they must do so in the name of their faith,


  • #3036
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Western, liberal democracies.

    In a liberal democracy, we ought to protect the freedom of expression of the wearer (or indeed not wearer above!) of the item of clothing to make that choice to do so.

    Those that seek to impinge upon that freedom (Both Islamists decreeing that the Burka must be worn, and those calling for bans) are equally asking for that liberal democracy to become less so.

    Is liberal democracy not being attacked by society insisting that people wear clothing at all then? Whatever about the subjective 'indecency' aspect, I really don't want to have to sit on seats that have accommodated bare bums. And is it justified to insist that people who work with food should wear gloves and hairnets? Or cyclists, motor cyclists etc should wear helmets?


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  • #3037
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    That's not wearing veils that is causing harm; that's people attacking people who aren't wearing veils causing harm. By all means, ban people attacking people who aren't wearing veils. Or even ban people attacking people who are wearing veils....
    Well, I'm not sure France or Belgium have the same history with the Burka as Germany has with the trappings of National Socialism, nor do I think that Egypt is likely to feature high on the list of liberal democracies, but I don't disagree that countries do ban things; I don't think the fact that things are banned is any justification for banning things though, do you?

    If you have a sub culture that has norms that are seen as negative in some way , its legitimate to try curb some of the behaviours. It might be discrimination that is deemed unfair or at the end of the day we live in a welfare state so peoples choices can affect whether people are a financial liability to the community so the community might have an interest in moving the sub culture closer to the main culture. So long as the laws affect everyone , I don't see a problem in theory . if non muslins could wear a burka but Muslims couldn't then that would be unfair
    :pac:

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3038
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    looksee wrote: »
    Is liberal democracy not being attacked by society insisting that people wear clothing at all then? Whatever about the subjective 'indecency' aspect, I really don't want to have to sit on seats that have accommodated bare bums.
    http://www.irishnaturism.org/legal.html
    I believe you could make a case on health grounds as opposed to decency grounds (though absolutely accept that the current wording is not that).
    To be quite honest, I don't know how I feel about naturism. Luckily the weather doesn't really suit!
    looksee wrote: »
    And is it justified to insist that people who work with food should wear gloves and hairnets?
    We regulate professions, not private lives. Evidence based.
    looksee wrote: »
    Or cyclists, motor cyclists etc should wear helmets?
    Evidence based laws in the main.
    I am not a dyed in the wool libertarian, I am happy to give up freedoms when there is a measurable and evident benefit.


  • #3039
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I worry about this slant on the issue. I believe there are practices, customs and belief systems that are not acceptable here. Female circumcision, flogging, amputation, stoning are examples. I believe we have every right to legislate against these archaic practices. This is not social engineering.


  • #3040
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I'm religious and support the ban
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Easily - they're taken into a private room with a female official and they lift the veil for comparison with their passport photo.


    Not sure where I stand on the ban but that seems like a lot of effort for a single person. Simply tell them to remove it then and there and then carry on.

    I can't simply refuse to keep a balaclava or mask on while in public (and hence at passport control till they escort me to a private room). Therefore they are being rights I do not have because they are of a certain religion. That should never happen.

    Again I haven't decided on an outright ban but I see no issue with people being forced to remove it for 10 seconds at passport control.


  • #3041
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    I worry about this slant on the issue. I believe there are practices, customs and belief systems that are not acceptable here. Female circumcision, flogging, amputation, stoning are examples. I believe we have every right to legislate against these archaic practices. This is not social engineering.

    Banned, banned, banned, banned.

    All covered under existing legislation.

    That legislation would need to be revoked for any of those practices to take place without fear of the law in Ireland.


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  • #3042
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    I worry about this slant on the issue. I believe there are practices, customs and belief systems that are not acceptable here. Female circumcision, flogging, amputation, stoning are examples. I believe we have every right to legislate against these archaic practices. This is not social engineering.

    piece of clothing =/= ritual mutilation, corporal & capital punishment.


  • #3043
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nodin wrote: »
    piece of clothing =/= ritual mutilation, corporal & capital punishment.

    Obviously.


  • #3044
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    If you have a sub culture that has norms that are seen as negative in some way , its legitimate to try curb some of the behaviours.
    How is it legitimate? I can't see anything legitimate about banning people from doing things you see as negative in some way, unless you're talking about legitimate prejudice.
    silverharp wrote: »
    It might be discrimination that is deemed unfair or at the end of the day we live in a welfare state so peoples choices can affect whether people are a financial liability to the community so the community might have an interest in moving the sub culture closer to the main culture.
    So... if they're not dependant on welfare, they can wear what they want? Seems a bit like picking on poor people....
    silverharp wrote: »
    So long as the laws affect everyone , I don't see a problem in theory . if non muslins could wear a burka but Muslims couldn't then that would be unfair :pac:
    So in theory, as long as everyone had to observe awrah and pray to Mecca properly, there's no problem in theory?


  • #3045
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    Its best not to take feminist arguments seriously...

    Especially when you don't have a counterargument.


  • #3046
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3047
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    How is it legitimate? I can't see anything legitimate about banning people from doing things you see as negative in some way, unless you're talking about legitimate prejudice.

    so FGM should be legal in Ireland ? i do have a legitimate prejudice becaue a cultural practice is not appropriate here

    Absolam wrote: »
    So... if they're not dependant on welfare, they can wear what they want? Seems a bit like picking on poor people....

    its about taking steps to reduce welfare dependency , thats good for everybody

    Absolam wrote: »
    So in theory, as long as everyone had to observe awrah and pray to Mecca properly, there's no problem in theory?

    the law would have to have a perceived benefit at a minimum, there wouldnt be one here so seems like a silly example

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3048
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I think it is. We have a set of values and rights as a modern western secular society. We have fought for these values and rights through the ages.
    Burkas and the mentality/values behind them have no place in our society.


  • #3049
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    silverharp wrote: »
    so FGM should be legal in Ireland ? i do have a legitimate prejudice becaue a cultural practice is not appropriate here
    I'm pretty sure we don't prohibit FGM because it's a cultural norm that some people see as negative in some way, do we? I think the basis for prohibition is somewhat more substantial.
    silverharp wrote: »
    its about taking steps to reduce welfare dependency , thats good for everybody
    You know, I really don't think you'll find any evidence to show that banning burkas reduces welfare dependency. I really really don't.
    silverharp wrote: »
    the law would have to have a perceived benefit at a minimum, there wouldnt be one here so seems like a silly example
    Well, those who think you should observe awrah and pray to Mecca would definitely perceive a benefit (everyone would be doing it), just as those who think you shouldn't wear a burka perceive a benefit with this law. So it doesn't seem at all silly, by the standard you just set out.


  • #3050
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    I think it is. We have a set of values and rights as a modern western secular society. We have fought for these values and rights through the ages.
    Burkas and the mentality/values behind them have no place in our society.
    Our values and rights don't prohibit wearing veils though? In fact, western culture uses veils in plenty of contexts, and we regularly cover our faces in others. I can't recall anyone ever fighting to prevent people wearing veils through the ages?


  • #3051
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Our values and rights don't prohibit wearing veils though? In fact, western culture uses veils in plenty of contexts, and we regularly cover our faces in others. I can't recall anyone ever fighting to prevent people wearing veils through the ages?

    Oh dear. We don't prohibit people wearing hideous golf jumpers either. The point is about what the garment represents - the repressive ideology behind it - not the garment itself.


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  • #3052
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure we don't prohibit FGM because it's a cultural norm that some people see as negative in some way, do we? I think the basis for prohibition is somewhat more substantial.
    You know, I really don't think you'll find any evidence to show that banning burkas reduces welfare dependency. I really really don't.

    Well, those who think you should observe awrah and pray to Mecca would definitely perceive a benefit (everyone would be doing it), just as those who think you shouldn't wear a burka perceive a benefit with this law. So it doesn't seem at all silly, by the standard you just set out.

    It comes back to looking at certain religious/cultural practices and judging are there negative consequences attached to them worth doing something about. On the face of it someone wearing a burka is essentially excluded from the workforce. And it appears to be a religious tool to create extreme levels of separateness within society which has a knock on effect on education and future generations.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #3053
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    We will make the same mistakes as other European societies who applied a multi-cultural model to immigration rather than an integrative one. We should insist that we abide by certain principles as a society, enshrined in our Constitution, and that those who want to live here need to accept and abide by them.


  • #3054
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    We will make the same mistakes as other European societies who applied a multi-cultural model to immigration rather than an integrative one. We should insist that we abide by certain principles as a society, enshrined in our Constitution, and that those who want to live here need to accept and abide by them.

    Yes, a dress code for citizenship sounds like the model Western Democracy should be aiming for.


  • #3055
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    We will make the same mistakes as other European societies who applied a multi-cultural model to immigration rather than an integrative one. We should insist that we abide by certain principles as a society, enshrined in our Constitution, and that those who want to live here need to accept and abide by them.

    Give us a few examples of what we should add to the Constitution when you get a chance.

    We've never had any problems as a result of doing something similar before have we?


  • #3056
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, a dress code for citizenship sounds like the model Western Democracy should be aiming for.

    Well, you started it - balaclavas, dark sun glasses, doc martens, combat jackets, moustaches.


  • #3057
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Give us a few examples of what we should add to the Constitution when you get a chance.

    We've never had any problems as a result of doing something similar before have we?

    Touched a nerve, Emmet? . Tell you what, go ahead and wear your Burka.


  • #3058
    keane2097
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,815 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Tbf the notion of adding a burka rule to the constitution is pretty terrible.


  • #3059
    Tadeo Quiet Waste
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Tadeo Quiet Waste


    I'm religious and support the ban
    LorMal wrote: »
    Touched a nerve, Emmet? . Tell you what, go ahead and wear your Burka.

    I'm grand, I've never put one on. I can't even recall ever speaking to someone who was wearing one!

    Not very happy with the idea that the constitution will have recommended dress code in it though. What's the Irish for Burka actually?

    The authority of choosing other people's clothing is not something I think that any of us should have power over.


  • #3060
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Nodin wrote: »

    It was estimated that less than 2,000 women wore the burqa in France, which essentially means anyone in one sticks out like a sore thumb. If you want to carry out crimes, why would you draw attention to yourself?
    How many people in, for example, London wear stockings on their head or balaclavas? I would guess it would be less than 2000, and I am pretty sure one sticks out like a sore thumb when wearing them, yet amazingly criminals still do it... It is almost as if they have a reason other than blending in for wearing something that makes them stick out like a sore thumb, but at the same time obscures their identity... I wonder what that might be?

    MrP


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  • #3061
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    keane2097 wrote: »
    Tbf the notion of adding a burka rule to the constitution is pretty terrible.

    That's not the idea suggested. More a case of enshrining our secularism


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