No refund for families who have paid water charges

weldoninhio · 05-03-2016 12:11AM

esforum wrote: »

Last time I checked and that was about 20 seconds ago, the state doesnt spend millions filtering, treating and piping that air into your home.

If you want water without paying, time for the buckets and I would suggest, purification tablets

Bucket and purification tablets?? Sure I can just go in and turn on a tap. Charges are off the table for the next few years. People were told not to pay, but they did. They got burned, unlike the bondholders, get over it.

esforum · 05-03-2016 12:11AM

Jayop wrote: »

Well that's simply not true at all.

Everyone accepts that you have to pay income tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepts VAT, no issues there.
Everyone accepts road tax, no issues there.
Everyone accepted stamp duty, no issues there.
Everyone accepts duty on fuel and things like alcohol, no issue there.

Plenty of people obkect to road tax and duty on alcohol and cigarettes

Personally I dont agree with VAT and I sure as **** dont agree with the pension levy

esforum · 05-03-2016 12:13AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Charges are off the table for the next few years.

they really arent. IW and charges are here to stay

Water John · 05-03-2016 12:16AM

Yeah, we all make up our own rules. I don't mind paying that but I do not like paying the other one.
If people were objecting to extra taxes. The USC was the obvious target.
It has taken in €4 Bn. Water has taken in peanuts in comparison.

Ogle & co have been totally disengenous, lead people up the garden path for their own ends.

xz · 05-03-2016 12:20AM

esforum wrote:

THat makes no sense whatsover, the level of GDP has no bearing on the taxtation % being lower than other nations. You made an incorrect statement, accept it.

esforum wrote:

You could have turned your water off the same as you can cancel your electricity and gas supply.

esforum wrote:

Theres no difference other than IW is new, electricity bills have always existsed for most of the population.

esforum wrote:

in fact, none of your arguements make sense

If you want to bend over and accept everything your Government wants you to pay for, and be a good citizen, that's your prerogative, I for one of many, who works, pays my taxes, owns my own home, am not, the last Government lied to us, they came to power under a certain mandate, did the complete opposite of that mandate, blamed the previous Government, who were going to implement the same policies, that they introduced, even though they said they weren't, Labour went into cahoots with Fine Gael, but were warning us against a Fine Gael Government in their election campaign in 2011, I for one, am pissed off being made a fool of by political parties with their, we'll do this, that and the other, and the minute they get into power, do the complete opposite...... The people who really run this country, are the people, the sooner the better the elected representatives realise this the better, we elect them to make the tough decisions, but they shouldn't take us for fools along the way either, the amount of criticism being laid at me on this thread, by, what all I can say is mindless conformists , is crazy, the fact that their are people defending the mess that is IW is mind boggling, yes, I haven't paid, but have always said, in not against paying for water, but, do it right, then I'll pay......... Rant over

Water John · 05-03-2016 12:28AM

I don't have much to disagree with you on there, dx.
I have paid, but IW is an absolute turkey.
I hope it becomes always held as an example of how not to impose change without consent.

xz · 05-03-2016 12:38AM

Water John wrote:

I don't have much to disagree with you on there, dx. I have paid, but IW is an absolute turkey. I hope it becomes always held as an example of how not to impose change without consent.

To me, without an argument, is the most intelligent thing you've said that I agree with

Jayop · 05-03-2016 12:42AM

esforum wrote: »

Plenty of people obkect to road tax and duty on alcohol and cigarettes

Personally I dont agree with VAT and I sure as **** dont agree with the pension levy

No they don't. They complain about having to pay it but they know it has to be paid.

xz · 05-03-2016 12:53AM

My overall position is, I'm not against water charges per se, but I am against paying then to the entity that is IW, the whole set up and manner of u turns, revelations of what money was being spent on was a farce from the get go, I'm not stupid, water is an essential lifeblood of our planet, and it's made up of 75% of it, but this 75% is not 100% drinkable, and our waste water has to be dealt with, Arklow for example, is a large town, yet there are still no plans for a waste water treatment plant, even though it has been fought for, for years, and no I don't live, or come from Arklow, the moment an entity is set up to deal with our old water infrastructure, and implement a modern one, without a quango feel to it, then I'll be more than happy to pay, but until then, keep wasting paper to bill me, or take legal action against me.

xz · 05-03-2016 01:01AM

This thread, if not anything, proves, despite our differences, healthy debate, for the most part without descending into name calling, is alive and well, pity our politicians can't debate without getting petty

Water John · 05-03-2016 01:12AM

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

xz · 05-03-2016 01:28AM

Water John wrote:

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

But I have paid my TV license, your name suggests you have something to do with IW, I may be totally wrong, but the general consensus is, even among those who have paid, is that IW is an ill conceived and rushed entity, just to appease the Troika

xz · 05-03-2016 01:36AM

Water John wrote:

Your only problem xz, is that if you go into court and tell the judge that you did not pay your TV licience because you don't like RTE, he won't give you much hearing.

Just wait until some future Government wants to charge you an O2 charge for the air you breathe, or a Urea or methane charge for going to the toilet, Irish people have accepted every charge thrown at them in the past, with the exception of pensioners who got a u-turn in recent years, why should the water charge protests be any different, the whole set up of IW is flawed, you have to at least admit that..... Oh, you did already, get it right, and then I'll pay, my argument all along

oscarBravo · 05-03-2016 01:41AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Are taxes meant to be the same across the EU or not ?

Taxes are not even remotely similar across the EU. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? You do know that VRT is something like 170% in Denmark?

xz wrote: »

This thread, if not anything, proves, despite our differences, healthy debate, for the most part without descending into name calling, is alive and well, pity our politicians can't debate without getting petty

xz wrote: »

My turn to make an assumption..... There's definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic

xz wrote: »

Yes Enda, if you say so

Uh huh.

xz · 05-03-2016 01:44AM

Oh, you got me there oscarBravo ..... Politics, Sex and religion and Sport debates will always trip you up..... Touche

xz · 05-03-2016 01:48AM

oscarBravo wrote:

Taxes are not even remotely similar across the EU. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? You do know that VRT is something like 170% in Denmark?

Yet the final cost of a car is cheaper than in Ireland, even much so that Germans buy BMW'S and Mercedes there, and combined with paying German VRT is still cheaper, heard from the horses mouth from a German company director who bought his car in Denmark

TheRealPONeill · 05-03-2016 01:49AM

micosoft wrote: »

Effectively FF are proposing to legalise tax evasion on the principle that any tax could at any point in the future be cancelled without recourse for those who have paid said charge and no penalties for those who have not. Why would you pay anything on that basis!.....

Effectively FF are saying this is being made up as they go along.

oscarBravo · 05-03-2016 01:52AM

xz wrote: »

Yet the final cost of a car is cheaper than in Ireland, even much so that Germans buy BMW'S and Mercedes there, and combined with paying German VRT is still cheaper, heard from the horses mouth from a German company director who bought his car in Denmark

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

weldoninhio · 05-03-2016 01:54AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

Tax is not meant to be the same. But there is a free trade agreement. VRT takes the pi55 out of that.

A_Sober_Paddy · 05-03-2016 01:56AM

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

weldoninhio · 05-03-2016 02:15AM

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

Ah well if you know precisely 3 people like that then it stands to reason that they must all be at it.

Littlehorny · 05-03-2016 08:43AM

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

Is that you Joan?

JustTheOne · 05-03-2016 09:01AM

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Thing that annoys me about a lot of the non payers, they say they can't afford it.

yet

the ones I know can still afford to go out once a week amd go abroad for 3 weeks of the year, and spend the other 49 weeks if the year giving out about water charges...I know precisely 3 ppl exactly like this, one of them went to mexico for 10 days in one of those resorts, can't afford water charges me hole

We are going down a dangerous road in this country where nowadays once you say you can't afford something you expect to get away with it.

Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon now that people expect a free house and everything paid for for doing nothing.

Sense of personal responsibility is vanishing.

It's not going to end well.

JustTheOne · 05-03-2016 09:03AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; the final cost is more expensive there because of the VRT. The pre-tax price is less than it is here, because the manufacturers have to keep the prices low or they'd never sell anything.

Of course Germans buy cars in Denmark - they pay German VRT, not Danish, so they get to take advantage of the lower pre-tax price.

None of which has anything to do with the bizarre idea that taxes are supposed to be the same across the EU, or that we have drastically higher taxes than the OECD average, or that VRT is illegal, or that Irish water is magically different from everybody else's water and can't be billed as a utility like everyone else does.

Higher taxes?

I thought we actually are quite low on the scale of high taxes.

900,000 working people pay little to no tax.

Water John · 05-03-2016 12:27PM

My understanding is that constitutionally a law in Ireland cannot be retrospective. Thus you cannot pass a law now, that does away with the obligation to pay for 2015 water. Parliament cannot turn around and say 'oh you haven't paid that bill, but we now let you off'. 2015 water bills cannot be reneged on. No law can be passed to do so.

MrMaki · 05-03-2016 12:36PM

JustTheOne wrote: »

Higher taxes?

I thought we actually are quite low on the scale of high taxes.

900,000 working people pay little to no tax.

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

You are not right saying that 900.000 pay little or no tax.

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

Arkady · 05-03-2016 12:43PM

MrMaki wrote: »

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.

MrMaki wrote: »

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

And who does that hit the hardest, the rich and comfortable, or the working person who just about makes end meet to raise and provide for their family ?

MrMaki · 05-03-2016 01:00PM

Arkady wrote: »

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.

And who does that hit the hardest, the rich and comfortable, or the working person who just about makes end meet to raise and provide for their family ?

Why u ask me? Ask person who wrote that 900.000 people pay no tax.

fxotoole · 05-03-2016 01:19PM

Arkady wrote: »

The Irish tax system is skewed in favour of the wealthy.
The elite pay little or no tax at all in Ireland.

Nor do the worst off in society. It's the middle class who are shafted.

Carlos Orange · 05-03-2016 02:21PM

MrMaki wrote: »

Ireland is more less in the middle when comparing taxes in EU.

You are not right saying that 900.000 pay little or no tax.

Everything is taxed - from our favourite take aways through bread and clothes to cigarettes, alcohol not even mentioning about petrol or diesel.

There is no VAT on bread. There is on many things. If I could track it accurately I imagine it isn't that significant relative to what gets taken out of my wages.

No refund for families who have paid water charges

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