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No refund for families who have paid water charges

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Comments

  • #242
    Lau2976
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    I honestly don't see how this is a big thing. Some people chose to pay, if we scrap them and don't give refunds that's the chance you took just like some chose not to pay and may be liable for them in the future if we keep them.


  • #243
    recylingbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭recylingbin


    Those of us that paid will just have to content ourselves with the knowledge that our money was well spent on all the upgrades on the water network.
    Those of us that didn't will be happy enough to know that they were right all along.

    Win win.


  • #244
    Arkady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    Lau2976 wrote: »
    I honestly don't see how this is a big thing. Some people chose to pay, if we scrap them and don't give refunds that's the chance you took just like some chose not to pay and may be liable for them in the future if we keep them.

    So you think its a good idea to set the precedent, that when any Irish government brings in any new charges that are unpopular, lawbreakers should get away free without paying or any consequences, and law abiding citzens, who might not agree but still pay, should instead be penalised with the charges ? Hmm there you have it folks, how to run a country Irish style.


  • #245
    Arkady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    recylingbin wrote: »
    Those of us that paid will just have to content ourselves that our money was well spent on all the upgrades on the water network.

    Except they weren't. They were paid to fund jobs for the boys and consultants, as well as cronie contracts for water meters that will never be used.


  • #246
    recylingbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭recylingbin


    Arkady wrote: »
    Except they weren't. They were paid to fund jobs for the boys and consultants, as well as cronie contracts for water meters that will never be used.

    What?
    No way!!!!
    Who thought that would happen when it was announced?


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  • #247
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think reasonable politicians have pulled away from penalising those that obeyed the law. That is as it should be.


  • #248
    Lau2976
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    Arkady wrote: »
    So you think its a good idea to set the precedent, that when any Irish government brings in any new charges that are unpopular, lawbreakers should get away free without paying or any consequences, and law abiding citzens, who might not agree but still pay, should instead be penalised with the charges ? Hmm there you have it folks, how to run a country Irish style.

    There's a difference with a charge being unpopular and unjust. IW has been a farce that's clearly being set up for privatization in the long run. What other tax have people gotten so worked up about? None. Because they accept that they may not like it but that it's right to pay. I'm sure the consultants and bosses love the people who bent over and paid. And I'm sure the ones who paid loved feeling smug that they were "good citizens". A good citizen fights for what's right not follows the government blindly. That's why the country is in the state it's in.


  • #249
    Arkady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    Water John wrote: »
    I think reasonable politicians have pulled away from penalising those that obeyed the law. That is as it should be.

    They have, so why no refunds for those decent citizens that reluctantly paid, while those that broke the law are effectively rewarded and incentivized for doing so ?


  • #250
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Arkady wrote: »
    So you think its a good idea to set the precedent, that when any Irish government brings in any new charges that are unpopular, lawbreakers should get away free without paying or any consequences, and law abiding citzens, who might not agree but still pay, should instead be penalised with the charges ? Hmm there you have it folks, how to run a country Irish style.

    Do you think it's a better precedent that the people should just blindly follow every stupid dictat that the government put in front of them?


  • #251
    Arkady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    Jayop wrote: »
    Do you think it's a better precedent that the people should just blindly follow every stupid dictat that the government put in front of them?

    Depending on your point of view all governments and their laws are stupid dictat's so why should anyone pay anything ?


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  • #252
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    My turn to make an assumption..... There's definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic


  • #253
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    My turn to make an assumption..... They're definitely some Fine Gael party members or IW employees posting on this topic


  • #254
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Arkady wrote: »
    Depending on your point of view all governments and their laws are stupid dictat's so why should anyone pay anything ?

    Well that's simply not true at all.

    Everyone accepts that you have to pay income tax, no issues there.
    Everyone accepts VAT, no issues there.
    Everyone accepts road tax, no issues there.
    Everyone accepted stamp duty, no issues there.
    Everyone accepts duty on fuel and things like alcohol, no issue there.

    Anyone not paying those is a tax dodger and should be pursued.

    It's things like the TV licence to fund that ****e, tax on a persons home even though it's "inherently unfair and possibly unconstitutional" according to the one who introduced it, and taxes to pay for a semi-private quango like IW who have done feck all to improve infrastructure apart from install millions of meters that will be as much use as the e-voting machines that people find unfair.


  • #255
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Jayop, that's your list. Everyone can draw up their own list. Their is no objective criteria by which yours is generated.


  • #256
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,377 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Water John wrote: »
    Jayop, that's your list. Everyone can draw up their own list. Their is no objective criteria by which yours is generated.

    It's not objective. Do you ever hear people complaining about any of those things apart from the levels at which they are set? Do you see people out on the streets in their tens of thousands because they have to pay VAT?


  • #257
    Lau2976
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    Arkady wrote: »
    Depending on your point of view all governments and their laws are stupid dictat's so why should anyone pay anything ?

    Because we have a thing called collective action problems? . We all face common issues because we are part of society, like needing a road. We chose to make a road, to do this we all pay a little and get to use this road. Now some chose not to pay and still use the road and we decide to catch them and punish them. And that's the right thing to do. And when the road gets bad or we need to make new ones we decide we will all pay a little every month to do that. Again some don't and should be punished.

    But let's say a new government gets elected and they decide that they're going to keep that road charge and add a new one to do the same thing, but call it something else. Now we face a divide because some people will think that it's wrong to be charged twice for the same thing and that it might just be that the government are going to really use that money for something else, like bailing out some people who made bad choices, and some will say well the government says we should pay so we should. Now the ones who don't agree choose to protest and question their government, which they didn't do before because they accepted that they needed to pay. While others hand over money blindly because they think they should.

    Do you see what I'm getting at here? Most people are reasonable in their expectations of what the government will charge them. And they are realistic in their expectations of what they recieve from their government in return. They don't think all taxes are bad just the really bad ones. Like the road tax above that the people are paying twice.


  • #258
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    But that's emotional not objective. Would not the increase in prescription charges, withdrawal of SNA's and home help etc. be far more reasons for public protest?
    The tax protests of the late 1970's were massive. Did we do away with income tax?
    Refers to Jayop.


  • #259
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    Shades of Noonan's comment of "they'll pay, they always do", bet he wished he never said that now


  • #260
    OfflerCrocGod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,341 ✭✭✭OfflerCrocGod


    xz wrote: »
    Most other OECD countries don't have the massive level of taxation that we do either
    Ireland has one of the lowest tax to GDP % in the OECD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV


  • #261
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    Water John wrote:
    But that's emotional not objective. Would not the increase in prescription charges, withdrawal of SNA's and home help etc. be far more reasons for public protest? The tax protests of the late 1970's were massive. Did we do away with income tax?


    I think you'll find that this one, was the straw that broke the camel's back, given that our LPT payments set up IW, plus the fact the water infrastructure was already being paid for through VAT and Motor Tax increases brought in, in 1997


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  • #262
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    OfflerCrocGod wrote:
    Ireland has one of the lowest tax to GDP % in the OECD

    But you'll probably find we have a much lower GDP % than most other OECD


  • #263
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    A lot of changes in taxes and charges since 1997.
    We pay less income tax. Motor tax has totally changed.
    Lets just say some of these was to offset the 1997 rises, if that keeps you happy.


  • #264
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    Water John wrote:
    A lot of changes in taxes and charges since 1997. We pay less income tax. Motor tax has totally changed. Lets just say some of these was to offset the 1997 rises, if that keeps you happy.


    I give up, you can continue to bend over, but I'm not, good luck getting your refund


  • #265
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Charges will not be abolished.
    Neither FG or FF are for that.
    So refund isn't an issue. You can protest at that all you like but charges will stay. they may be suspended or deferred but not abolished. Political reality.


  • #266
    xz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭xz


    Water John wrote:
    Charges will not be abolished. Neither FG or FF are for that. So refund isn't an issue. You can protest at that all you like but charges will stay. they may be suspended or deferred but not abolished. Political reality.


    Yes Enda, if you say so


  • #267
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    recylingbin wrote: »
    Those of us that paid will just have to content ourselves with the knowledge that our money was well spent on all the upgrades on the water network.
    Those of us that didn't will be happy enough to know that they were right all along.

    Win win.

    You do realise that even if there was 100% compliance that if still would not cover the amount of money it cost to set up IW and pay IW workers, consultants etc. Not one single cent went towards improving any infrastructure.


  • #268
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    xz wrote: »
    But you'll probably find we have a much lower GDP % than most other OECD

    THat makes no sense whatsover, the level of GDP has no bearing on the taxtation % being lower than other nations. You made an incorrect statement, accept it.
    xz wrote: »
    I wasn't bullied into paying for that service, nor gas, or telephone etc, etc, I am not against paying for a proper water infrastructure, but not in the way that IW was set up and forced upon us, the idea was good, but the implementation was a complete farce

    You could have turned your water off the same as you can cancel your electricity and gas supply.

    Theres no difference other than IW is new, electricity bills have always existsed for most of the population.

    in fact, none of your arguements make sense


  • #269
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    Arkady wrote: »
    You'd think water was a basic requirement to sustain human life they way the whingers talk (as dear leader calls them). Mr Ahern was also right, they should just kill themselves and let us get on with making money from the rest.

    The peasants will even complain when our next company Irish Air wins the rights to install, supply and maintain breathing air meters and the billing system. They must think clean air just exists, and requires no real expenditure to supply and maintain.

    Last time I checked and that was about 20 seconds ago, the state doesnt spend millions filtering, treating and piping that air into your home.

    If you want water without paying, time for the buckets and I would suggest, purification tablets


  • #270
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,334 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I'm pro water conservation and open to water charges, but I cannot pay for that piece of sh1t Irish water....you can't just lump on a charge on water without making cuts to other charges, especially in the worst recession of this generation...it was arrogant and anti working class from the very start....


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  • #271
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,267 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I did not vote for EK.
    Just because I have a different view to you doesn't put me in any camp.
    I believe in water charges and LPT. A broad tax system is NB for the balance and reduced risk to the tax take of the state.

    On the other hand IW was a proverbial cock up start to finish.
    For example, as I wrote on some thread already, the top 20% of users were scheduled to pay €720/year. the average put out was totally disengenious.


This discussion has been closed.
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