No refund for families who have paid water charges

seamus · 03-03-2016 10:26AM

screamer wrote: »

Water charges are not taxes and they are not legally enforceable as yet.

They're legally enforceable because they're bills.

And it's already the case that you cannot sell your house without confirmation from Irish Water that the bills are paid.

So let's not start up this, "does not have a valid licence to collects monies" nonsense again, that was all put to bed 3 years ago.

Gator88 · 03-03-2016 10:28AM

In the late 80s there was a property tax based on the value. As it turns out the way it was done it became known as the Dublin Property tax as so few homes outside Dublin had to pay it. People weren't happy & most refused to pay. When it was scraped a short while later those that hadn't paid weren't chased & those that paid didn't get a refund.

I will point out that the last government made it very clear that no late fees would come into effect for at least 12/ 18 months. All the opposition parties made it very clear that they would scrap the charge after the election. Why anyone would have paid it till after the election is beyond me. It didn't make sense. It would have cost nothing extra in fees or fines to wait till after the election. Not a penny was paid out for any of my properties. Though I never applied for the grant.

I do find it amazing that FG/L paid people €100 grant & many never paid the water bill at all. Couldn't they have given a €100 credit note toward the water bill instead of hard cash? They had money to throw away & yet they did nothing for homless

Shurimgreat · 03-03-2016 10:29AM

I expect the faux anger of the socialist groups to go into overdrive on this issue. More than likely the main issue they will fight the next election on.

screamer · 03-03-2016 10:31AM

So then people who have not paid will get punished by not being able to sell their houses with hefty penalties on top. So what's the beef? Water charges though are not taxes so not paying them is not tax evasion.

Birdie Num Num · 03-03-2016 10:33AM

This election result and the electorate are full of contradictions. Don't want to pay water charges, it's a tax. Don't want to give up USC we need taxes.

Shurimgreat · 03-03-2016 10:39AM

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

This election result and the electorate are full of contradictions. Don't want to pay water charges, it's a tax. Don't want to give up USC we need taxes.

Totally agree. The electorate are not better than the politicians. And yes contradictions a plenty.

People are saying water charges are the "final straw", yet USC is at least ten times water charges for most people. Faux anger from the socialist parties is driving this.

gladrags · 03-03-2016 10:48AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

FG,the new Syrizia?

jmayo · 03-03-2016 11:03AM

bmay529 wrote: »

As someone who has paid their water charges I read this morning that FF say there will be No refund for families who have paid water charges. If true, as someone who felt they were meeting their civic duty, even though I did not like the charge, it would really **** me off if those who did not pay got off scot-free while those who did will face the hit. For sure I will remember it a) when deciding who to elect next time and b) I will remember this whenever any future charges our Government dream up are levied. SO FF find a way to recognise those who paid and don't pawn it off by saying someone else decided on the charge. Also am I right in saying every other country in Europe has water charges and that their removal will effect the country's balance sheet with many other negative implications

I thought ff have said they will pursue those who haven't paid ??

If some people get away scot free it sets yet another dangerous precedent in good old banana republic Ireland.

What happens the next time the government (whoever they are) introduces a charge or tax that people do not like.
There will be no payers at all because even the civic minded law abiding taxpayers and citizens will just go why should we once again carry the can.

BTW it is going to be interesting over the next decade or so how greater Dublin solves it's water issues.
How exactly will they fund the new pipes, new reservoirs, connection to the Shannon, etc ?
Or will it also be funded from the magic money tree like everything else. :rolleyes:

Permabear · 03-03-2016 11:03AM

This post has been deleted.

jmayo · 03-03-2016 11:05AM

gladrags wrote: »

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

FG,the new Syrizia?

Big difference between water charges and USC.
USC was deducted automatically as a tax.

You didn't somehow get out of paying it, unless you of course don't pay any tax and live off the taxes of others.

seamus · 03-03-2016 11:11AM

gladrags wrote: »

Absurd and ridiculous.

FG promised to abolish the USC,so by your line of thinking,we should all now stop paying our taxes.

Different thing. If Google made an announcement that they were going to buy eircom and give all customers their current services for free, do you think people would continue paying their eircom bills?

The bills are utility bills, not a tax.

gladrags · 03-03-2016 11:12AM

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Damn those of us who paid our bills!! Fools the lot of us.

People who haven't paid think this is great but as has been said already, numerous times, water charges as a whole aren't going away. Those who think they are, are the real fools.

They most certainly are not going away,and the issue has defined the last government,by the way they handled it.

And given that the water charge controversy,was supposedly dead as an election issue a few weeks ago,says a lot about how the electorate felt in real terms.

The compeltely ignorant mantra that there is no other option to improving the water infrastructure,other than to charge the taxpayer,beggars belief.

mahoganygas · 03-03-2016 11:33AM

I paid my bills in 2015. If FF or anyone else scraps charges then I want to see 1 of 3 things happening:

1. Non payers are pursued and forced to pay arrears in full for 2015.

2. People like me who paid in full will receive a refund.

3. When water charges come back in 5 years down the road that my previous payments are credited to my account. Those who didn't pay in 2015 will indirectly pay in 2020.

Anything less than this is an insult to law abiding citizens who pay their taxes every day.

What an utter mess.

gladrags · 03-03-2016 11:42AM

mahoganygas wrote: »

I paid my bills in 2015. If FF or anyone else scraps charges then I want to see 1 of 3 things happening:

1. Non payers are pursued and forced to pay arrears in full for 2015.

2. People like me who paid in full will receive a refund.

3. When water charges come back in 5 years down the road that my previous payments are credited to my account. Those who didn't pay in 2015 will indirectly pay in 2020.

Anything less than this is an insult to law abiding citizens who pay their taxes every day.

What an utter mess.

As nothing is certain at the moment,looking ahead five years is pushing your luck,particularly when it comes to Irish water.

gladrags · 03-03-2016 11:52AM

jmayo wrote: »

Big difference between water charges and USC.
USC was deducted automatically as a tax.

You didn't somehow get out of paying it, unless you of course don't pay any tax and live off the taxes of others.

There is no big difference as regards to the cheap point that was being made with regards to Greece and Syrizia.

Abolishing the USC would have a huge impact,much more so than abolishing IW.

Arkady · 03-03-2016 11:56AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well of course that idiot would, he's fighting for what's left of his pathetic and shambolic political career.
I have paid all my charges to to date, and allowed a meter to be installed.
But why would people pay them now, when there will be no refunds, and people who broke the law and didn't pay their taxes and charges, will face no sanction whatsoever. And on top of that, regardless if charges remain or not, those people who have refused a metered installation, will have unmetered connections for life, while the law abiding have more expensive metered connections. Only in gombeen Ireland could something be handled so badly as Irish Water and Water metering. It really doesn't pay to be an honest taxpaying citizen (gullible fool) in Ireland. We've been conned (yet again).

Permabear · 03-03-2016 12:07PM

This post has been deleted.

DublinWriter · 03-03-2016 12:19PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how long a cobbled-together populist government's plan to scrap water charges lasts in the face of EC fines for WFD breaches.

That'll be the same EU that threw us under the bus in 2009 by insisting we pay €12bn of junior bondholder debt?

Oh, good.

Permabear · 03-03-2016 12:30PM

This post has been deleted.

StupidLikeAFox · 03-03-2016 12:33PM

I am in favour of a national utility to manage our water, which has the latest technology and practices in use (as Irish Water does) as opposed to the old system of 30 odd individual authorities managing it in all manners, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. I thought that this should be set up first, get the system sorted and then you would be in a position to start charging to maintain the system.

I knew they made a balls of Irish Water, both the execution and the communication, but like others in the thread paid the bill as I saw it at least as a step in the right direction.

Anyway, I have just cancelled my Direct Debit in about 30 seconds using online banking. I think its also pretty easy to claim a refund of DD payments thanks to SEPA, so I might look into that also.

All in all, an absolute farce of a situation from beginning to end

Fr Tod Umptious · 03-03-2016 12:35PM

This is hilarious.

FF throw a populist bone to the electorate late in the campaign.

The people bite and FF reap the rewards.

Now we have the hangover.

What do FF do if they are any part of a govt., senior or junior.

Do they drop it and blame FG for using it as a red line ?

Do they silently drop it and say they looked at the books and it can't be done ?

Do they get rid of water charges and introduce some other tax to cover the shortfall ?

Do they bin water charges and tell all who paid hard luck?

Do they pay back the people who paid and also take back the grant ?

All of the above will be meet with outrage from some quarter you can be sure.

Elemonator · 03-03-2016 12:40PM

Can't really see the big deal about 160 euro. They'll get us back with something far worse now.

Tomagotchye · 03-03-2016 12:43PM

Irish Water will survive. We're in too deep at this point and cannot back out. They'll re-brand it and look at reforming it but the water charges will stay.

It sets a dangerous precedent. Why should anyone pay anything any more when there's the possibility a mob will give out and people might back down.

Water services in the country are and always have been a joke. We need to start paying for it. I think we need to look at how Irish Water works and tweak it to suit but we're not going back. I remember drinking water in Galway and half the time it would be dirt and half the time is was basically chlorine.

Arkady · 03-03-2016 01:01PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yep proponent after proponent for Irish Water lied ad swore blind that it would be above board and properly managed "this time".

oscarBravo · 03-03-2016 01:09PM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I think its also pretty easy to claim a refund of DD payments thanks to SEPA, so I might look into that also.

A payment made in the last 8 weeks can be refunded with no questions asked, but that doesn't affect whether or not you owe the money. A payment made in the last 13 months will be refunded if you can demonstrate that it was taken in error.

Arkady · 03-03-2016 01:18PM

Tomagotchye wrote: »

I remember drinking water in Galway and half the time it would be dirt and half the time is was basically chlorine.

So other than paying twice for it now, through both general taxation, even more dodgy contracts, even more jobs for the boys, and direct charges, what's changed ? Perhaps another Phil Hogan will be along to tell us it'll all work well and be sorted out soon.

mjp · 03-03-2016 01:38PM

Had amount deducted from Irish water yesterday and just off the phone to ulsterbank in getting it cancelled. Also to my surprise managed to get all payments since june last year reversed also and â‚¬260 will be back in my bank ac in 48 hours.

Would advise anyone to get onto their bank to see what they can get reversed until there's more clarity on situation. Found ulsterbank very obliging and easy deal with compared to boi when I tried to get payment reversed in the past.They asked me to fill out all sorts of forms online to get payment reversed.

Crocked · 03-03-2016 01:53PM

Arkady wrote: »

So other than paying twice for it now, through both general taxation

Except we're not paying it twice. The tax income that was being used to under invest in our water infrastructure in the past is now invested in things like health, schools etc. Im guessing your all for cutting the health budget or social welfare budget now that FF has seen their way to stopping all funding to Irish Water?

Arkady · 03-03-2016 02:05PM

Crocked wrote: »

Except we're not paying it twice. The tax income that was being used to under invest in our water infrastructure in the past is now invested in things like health, schools etc. Im guessing your all for cutting the health budget or social welfare budget now that FF has seen their way to stopping all funding to Irish Water?

You've selectively edited and attempted to misquote the post. I'm afraid you can't successfully separate what actually happened (reality) from what you'd and all the lying political parties like to try and spin. Even the law abiding people that faithfully paid the water charges are wiser to you now. Is that you Phil ? General taxation was not reduced to take account of the water charges, nor is health and education in any better shape since Irish water, in fact it's worse.

Permabear · 03-03-2016 02:08PM

This post has been deleted.

No refund for families who have paid water charges

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