Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

25-02-2016 11:44PM

Pro. F wrote: »

That was fun. It's as simple as that. Most of us won't be reading too much into it, but it was good to have some fun watching the team tonight.

Ah s3y pal did you not hea3. We gonna win the league we gonna win the league :pac:

bucketybuck · 25-02-2016 11:50PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'm no LVG apologist and think he is rightly criticized for a lot of things, but I don't understand the claims that he's only giving youth a chance because he's been forced to. Yes, in the most literal sense, the reason so many youth players are in the team is because there are no other options through injury. However, he made the very clearly deliberate choice in the summer to rely on them by keeping the senior squad small and not having more experienced backup options. He went on to stand by this choice in January.

Whether he was right or wrong to do this is certainly up for debate, but it's pretty stupid to claim that he's blundered accidentally into playing academy products because he has no other choice. He made that choice more than 6 months ago.

As you allude to though, neither way reflects well on Van Gaal.

He always intended debutants to be his viable squad options? Well our league position and CL exit would suggest it wasn't a good decision, would it not? But if he never expected to be dipping this deep into the well then that doesn't speak to his forward planning and squad management, does it?

I personally don't think throwing kids in last minute is player development anyway, there is more to creating future first team players than just putting them on the field in big games and hoping they don't freeze. This constant refrain of "LVG trusts his youths" gets on my wick really, I suspect if Van Gaal did exactly what Pellegrini did in the FA cup against Chelsea, instead of accusations of forfeiting the game people would spin it as Van Gaal trusting his youths.

To be honest, I do wonder if people in here vastly overstate the whole youth development thing, is it just so they have something to cling to? Seriously, youth development is a means to an end, not the end itself, I would far rather have senior players pushing for titles than loads of kids getting their debuts week after week as we coast to midtable. I would far rather we developed one or two top quality players along side competitive senior pros instead of swathes of kids thrown in at the deep end every week. Do we want to be a youth academy or a title winning side? Southampton or Manchester United? On this very page there are people wary of Mourinho because he might not be kid friendly. Yeah, I'd rather have the titles than the kids thank you very much.

Developing a few kids should be ancilliary to a successful season, not a reason to claim success itself.

CR 7 · 25-02-2016 11:55PM

Lithium93_ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MUFCScoop/status/702972262203396097

So good that it deserves to be posted in better quality.

jambofc · 26-02-2016 02:03AM

exhilarating and exciting to see us play with flair and creativity again if we played like that week in week out teams would be scared s###less of us again
fantastic from our young players with freedom and no fear

Bret Hart · 26-02-2016 03:14AM

Lord TSC wrote: »

Teams going into the pot tomorrow. No seeding or separation by nation.

©Getty Images for UEFA
Teams in the draw tbc
Athletic Club (ESP)
Sevilla (ESP)
Valencia (ESP)
Villarreal (ESP)
Liverpool (ENG)
Manchester United (ENG)
Tottenham (ENG)
Dortmund (GER)
Leverkusen (GER)
Braga (POR)
Sparta Praha (CZE)
Lazio (ITA)
Shakhtar Donetsk (UKR)
Fenerbahçe (TUR)
Basel (SUI)
Olympiacos (GRE)/Anderlecht (BEL)

Fingers crossed we draw Sparta,but if we don't get them then I'd love to get Liverpool,as there also one of the weakest teams left in the competition and they'd both pose little threat too us in the last 16 and it'd be a good chance for Riley,Rashford,Varela,Poole and Pereira too get some much needed experience and playing time.

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 26-02-2016 07:07AM

If the second leg falls on paddys day and we got Liverpool then the mods will need too shut down boards ha ha

Liam McPoyle · 26-02-2016 07:30AM

MrMac84 wrote: »

If the second leg falls on paddys day and we got Liverpool then the mods will need too shut down boards ha ha

Are games scheduled for that day?

homerjay2005 · 26-02-2016 07:50AM

Only reading back throught the thread now.....so many Kate gifs......

Lovely Bloke · 26-02-2016 07:54AM

Bret Hart wrote: »

Fingers crossed we draw Sparta,but if we don't get them then I'd love to get Liverpool,as there also one of the weakest teams left in the competition and they'd both pose little threat too us in the last 16 and it'd be a good chance for Riley,Rashford,Varela,Poole and Pereira too get some much needed experience and playing time.

what is this bullshít?

brinty · 26-02-2016 07:54AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Only reading back throught the thread now.....so many Kate gifs......

You started it...
This new cuddlier funny positive version of homerjay is so much more fun...
I think you might be the man to drive the tram....
#positivitytram...

26-02-2016 08:02AM

Looks like Martials injury may not be as bad as first thought. Please god he's ok for Arsenal

bucketybuck · 26-02-2016 08:06AM

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Looks like Martials injury may not be as bad as first thought. Please god he's ok for Arsenal

Should he be risked against Arsenal regardless? Its a very short turnaround to a game that we of course want to win, but that probably won't affect our season anyway, so why risk him?

Martial should have been rested weeks and months ago, but surely he should be given a break now that he is carrying a strain, he is still just a kid after all.

Cookie_Dough · 26-02-2016 08:11AM

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Looks like Martials injury may not be as bad as first thought. Please god he's ok for Arsenal

I hope so too. Though it wouldn't do him any harm to have a rest. I wouldn't mind Memphis playing striker on Sunday if he could play like last night. I know Danish lads (can't spell it

) are much weaker opposition etc but he really seems like this confidence is back. Rushford also impressed me with how he played, especially as he wasn't expecting to be starting.

Liam McPoyle · 26-02-2016 08:14AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Should he be risked against Arsenal regardless? Its a very short turnaround to a game that we of course want to win, but that probably won't affect our season anyway, so why risk him?

Martial should have been rested weeks and months ago, but surely he should be given a break now that he is carrying a strain, he is still just a kid after all.

If he has even an inkling of anything then he shouldn't be anywhere near the squad for the game.

26-02-2016 08:20AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Should he be risked against Arsenal regardless? Its a very short turnaround to a game that we of course want to win, but that probably won't affect our season anyway, so why risk him?

Martial should have been rested weeks and months ago, but surely he should be given a break now that he is carrying a strain, he is still just a kid after all.

Fair point, then that's a sure start for Rashford up front then...alongside who?
We are not exactly bursting with options.

It's alot to ask the 18 year old when you think about it...leading the line against Arsenal

26-02-2016 08:22AM

Cookie_Dough wrote: »

I hope so too. Though it wouldn't do him any harm to have a rest. I wouldn't mind Memphis playing striker on Sunday if he could play like last night. I know Danish lads (can't spell it ) are much weaker opposition etc but he really seems like this confidence is back. Rushford also impressed me with how he played, especially as he wasn't expecting to be starting.

I would disagree here, keep him way out left where he played last night.
He provided more service into the front men when he did this rather than continuously cutting inside and getting predictably caught out.
Bare in mind he will be up against a better defense but still he looked much more of a threat when he started playing like a proper winger.

I want to see more of that energy and strength he showed also.
He actually looked to win the ball back if he got tackled and lost possesion which was another + point

glued · 26-02-2016 08:28AM

Would love to see more of Riley, Rashford, Periera etc in the league. They looked much more hungry and confident than the players currently in the side. Some of the play between Memphis and Riley was brilliant last night. Yes the opposition were terrible but that was by far our best performance of the season. Hopefully this good form continues.

secman · 26-02-2016 08:30AM

Sand wrote: »

I don't think it will - I think Mourinho would be a less than optimal appointment given the claimed aims of the club to play attacking football and bring youth players through, but I dont think the powers that be give a damn about the "United Way" anymore than the fans do when the chips are down. Short term success always trumps long term dynasties as far as most teams are concerned.

And since SAF left ,he hasn't got the gig....why ?
Obviously there are people in the hierarchy who don't want him. God knows he has had plenty of opportunities with our last 2 appointment's records.

citytillidie · 26-02-2016 08:43AM

Business Cat wrote: »

Are games scheduled for that day?

Yea 1st legs are March 10th 2nd legs March 17th

Maximus Alexander · 26-02-2016 09:31AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

As you allude to though, neither way reflects well on Van Gaal.

He always intended debutants to be his viable squad options? Well our league position and CL exit would suggest it wasn't a good decision, would it not? But if he never expected to be dipping this deep into the well then that doesn't speak to his forward planning and squad management, does it?

I personally don't think throwing kids in last minute is player development anyway, there is more to creating future first team players than just putting them on the field in big games and hoping they don't freeze. This constant refrain of "LVG trusts his youths" gets on my wick really, I suspect if Van Gaal did exactly what Pellegrini did in the FA cup against Chelsea, instead of accusations of forfeiting the game people would spin it as Van Gaal trusting his youths.

To be honest, I do wonder if people in here vastly overstate the whole youth development thing, is it just so they have something to cling to? Seriously, youth development is a means to an end, not the end itself, I would far rather have senior players pushing for titles than loads of kids getting their debuts week after week as we coast to midtable. I would far rather we developed one or two top quality players along side competitive senior pros instead of swathes of kids thrown in at the deep end every week. Do we want to be a youth academy or a title winning side? Southampton or Manchester United? On this very page there are people wary of Mourinho because he might not be kid friendly. Yeah, I'd rather have the titles than the kids thank you very much.

Developing a few kids should be ancilliary to a successful season, not a reason to claim success itself.

I don't really disagree with most of this, I have criticized him myself for letting so many players leave. I'm always delighted to see young players come through, but not at the expense of the club's competitiveness.

But that's not really the point I was driving at, which was that if people are going to criticize him, criticize him for the right things - there're lots of them! Saying he's not giving youth a chance, but is instead being forced into it is completely wrong headed.

Mitch Connor · 26-02-2016 09:49AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Saying he's not giving youth a chance, but is instead being forced into it is completely wrong headed.

In your opinion.

In my opinion if he had a fully fit squad to pick from last night than Riley would not have started at left back, Rashford would not have started up front. I reckon if Fellaini was fit last night he probably would have started ahead of Rashford, for example.

For me, to say he is giving youth a chance and developing players he would need to be picking those youth players ahead of more experienced players, when the opportunity is there to do so - but I feel the only player he has done this with (and done it fairly consistently) is Lingard. Every othe rplayer people praise him for developing has been thrown in to the side because all the other options in their position were injured.

As I said last night - look at the Rashford debut as an example.

LVG went in to September with 2 senior strikers and one youth striker in the first team squad - Rooney, Martial and Wilson.

Wilson got feck all game time or chances. Wilson was loaned out (when Keane was already out on loan) leaving us with just Rooney and Martial - with Rashford seemingly next up. Rashford appeared in not squads, never mind playing for the first team and Fellaini was used as the next man up in attack rather than Rashford, as was Memphis.

Keane comes back into the squad having asked (himself) for his loan to be terminated as opposed to LVG deciding it was time to give him a chance. Keane only gets into the match day squad after Rooney gets injured - and gets into the match day squad ahead of Rashford who had been (arguably) the 3rd or 4th choice striker at the club for 4 months - because there were only 2 or 3 other strikers at the club.

Keane then gets injured and then so does Martial - with Rooney and Fellaini also still injured. So Rashford comes into the side - when the only options available to LVG at this point, due to injuries, are to play him or move Memphis up front and bring Pereira in.

So, while we have some claming LVG should be praised for showing faith in Rashford and giving him a chance - I feel his actions over the course of the season show that he was only played because LVG had no other choices left.

In the same vein, I wouldn't praise Pellegrini for giving youth a chance vs Chelsea last weekend because, with 6 debutants in one game, I don't feel there was any planning involved in playing those players - other than to give senior players a few more days off and give himself a handy excuse for putting the FA Cup on lowest priority and basically throwing the game.

For managers to get praise for developing young players, imo, there needs to be a pattern to how and when the players are played, there needs to be some sort of plan and integration of the players into the match day squad and first team on occasions that aren't dictated solely by injury issues.

bucketybuck · 26-02-2016 10:06AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Saying he's not giving youth a chance, but is instead being forced into it is completely wrong headed.

For me this argument goes like this:

- Van Gaal is playing the kids.
- He is playing the kids because he has no other option.
- He has no other option because he cut the squad down to the bare bones.
- He cut the squad down to the bare bones because he wanted to play the kids.

Stated like that it all sounds like a reasonable plan, yes? He always wanted to use and develop the kids, yes?

The problem with it is that it isn't supported by the managers actions elsewhere. He hasn't handled most of the kids particularly well, he has messed more than a few of them around, he hasn't made any of them better than they were a year ago.

But most importantly, he has not used those kids except when he had to, only in emergencies. If he is all about the kids why do you only see them when we are stuck? When you think of developing youth you think of playing a kid alongside senior pros in the proper situations, against smaller teams and with older players there to protect and guide them. When does Van Gaal do that? How many times has an available senior player been dropped for a kid in the name of player development? Take the Newcastle game for example, the perfect game to play Varela and give him experience, but instead we see Ashley Young at right back. You never see a crap Mata taken out to give Pereira some development time, we never saw a putrid Rooney taken out to give Wilson some experience.

No, we only see these lads when Van Gaal has absolutely no other choice, and it completely undermines any attempts to claim his squad choices were all about trusting the kids.

Eta: Beaten I see, but the point is the same.

Polo_Mint · 26-02-2016 10:15AM

Id like to see Lingard, Rashford, Pereira, McNair, Wilson, Depay, Martial, Borthwick - Jackson, Blackett, Varela , Shaw and Schneiderlin building United future.

This would bring excitement back to United

Maximus Alexander · 26-02-2016 10:25AM

Why would he be dropping more talented and experienced senior players to start academy products instead? This almost never happens - there has to be a reason to drop your first string players, and more often than not it's down to injury. He still elected to get rid of third and fourth choice senior players and draw on the youth teams instead.

Now you make a pretty compelling argument that he has handled it badly, that maybe these players should have appeared in more squads and made some late sub appearances, etc. But that's a totally separate argument to saying that he hasn't relied on youth, hasn't given them a chance, and that it's basically an accident.

This can be valid:

bucketybuck wrote: »

- Van Gaal is playing the kids.
- He is playing the kids because he has no other option.
- He has no other option because he cut the squad down to the bare bones.
- He cut the squad down to the bare bones because he wanted to play the kids.

And he can still have handled it badly. They're separate arguments.

Mitch Connor · 26-02-2016 10:32AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why would he be dropping more talented and experienced senior players to start academy products instead? This almost never happens - there has to be a reason to drop your first string players, and more often than not it's down to injury.

This just isn't true though.

Many, MANY players get their debuts and play games because the management team feel they are ready for the chance, the opposition and game allows (in theory) for some experimentation and the management team feel a senior player could be rested in favour of giving a young player.

You have stated this arguement previously too, and I completely disagreed with it then as well - young players can, and are, developed and brought into first team squads without injuries meaning there are literally no other options.

Did Beckham only get into the team because of injuries (along with a few other young players) or did Fergie feel a home game vs Galatasaray (i think) was a good game to blood a few younger players? Did Fergie only play young players in the League Cup because all the senior players just happened to be injured for those games?

Injuries CAN be a reason for players to be given a prolonged shot in the first team but it is hardly uncommon for players to be introduced and used in the first team on a rotational basis because the management team feel they are ready.

bangkok · 26-02-2016 10:32AM

great training session last night, hopefully we can give a good performance this sunday. Hopefully that was the turning point for Memphis

bucketybuck · 26-02-2016 10:38AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why would he be dropping more talented and experienced senior players to start academy products instead?

Because thats what you need to do if you actually want young players to develop. You create the best environment for them to learn, and in the main they learn most by first playing without pressure in suitable games alongside experienced teammates.

Why drop experienced players for academy products? Because sometimes you take the long view and make the change so that when the time comes those kids will have had some prior experience.

This almost never happens - there has to be a reason to drop your first string players, and more often than not it's down to injury.

What about resting young players like Martial before he gets injured? What about taking underperforming players like Mata or Rooney out for a few games? These kids are our squad, so what about simple squad rotation? And what about player development?

There are plenty of reasons to drop a player for a game and don't forget, I'm not talking about dropping the first team for a load of kids, but simply taking a player out here and there at the right times to give these kids some gametime. Van Gaal doesn't do that unless he is stuck.

Maximus Alexander · 26-02-2016 10:38AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

This just isn't true though.

Many, MANY players get their debuts and play games because the management team feel they are ready for the chance, the opposition and game allows (in theory) for some experimentation and the management team feel a senior player could be rested in favour of giving a young player.

You have stated this arguement previously too, and I completely disagreed with it then as well - young players can, and are, developed and brought into first team squads without injuries meaning there are literally no other options.

Did Beckham only get into the team because of injuries (along with a few other young players) or did Fergie feel a home game vs Galatasaray (i think) was a good game to blood a few younger players? Did Fergie only play young players in the League Cup because all the senior players just happened to be injured for those games?

Injuries CAN be a reason for players to be given a prolonged shot in the first team but it is hardly uncommon for players to be introduced and used in the first team on a rotational basis because the management team feel they are ready.

Using the likes of Beckham as an example doesn't really lend any weight to your position to be honest. You're relying on an exceptional talent to prove the point - is there anyone under 20 at United that you'd put on Beckham's level?

Maximus Alexander · 26-02-2016 10:40AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

What about resting young players like Martial before he gets injured? What about taking underperforming players like Mata or Rooney out for a few games? These kids are our squad, so what about simple squad rotation? And what about player dvelopment?

There are plenty of reasons to drop a player for a game and don't forget, I'm not talking about dropping the first team for a load of kids, but simply taking a player out here and there at the right times to give these kids some gametime. Van Gaal doesn't do that unless he is stuck.

As I said, I'm not arguing that he hasn't handled it badly. I said only a few days ago that Martial needed a rest. The fallacy that he didn't intend to have to rely on youths this season is what I have a problem with.

bucketybuck · 26-02-2016 10:48AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Using the likes of Beckham as an example doesn't really lend any weight to your position to be honest. You're relying on an exceptional talent to prove the point - is there anyone under 20 at United that you'd put on Beckham's level?

Then don't look at Beckham, look at one of his teammates, Nicky Butt.

Butt was brought into the squad around the same time as Beckham, a great player but not exceptional and he was often rotated into the team in league and cup games as a squad option, and not necessarily because of any injuries.

What about Fletcher, did he only play when everybody else was injured? Did Wes Brown only get on the field when everybody else was injured?

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

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