Why do some men commit rape?

19-02-2016 05:06PM

I do some work for a charity that aims to end sexual abuse in prisons and penal institutions, whether male, female or adolescent.

http://justdetention.org/

JDI operates internationally, All donations welcome and it's a Five Star Charity as described by Charity Navigator.

In that scenario, the most common reason why people rape is because they can.

To assert dominance, because they feel entitled to sex, to dehumanise the victim, and to be feared...they rely on the low rate of reporting, the low rate of prosecution, and the low rate of conviction, the stigma the victim feels, everything that means they feel they can because there is nothing to stop them.

Obviously this is a very specific scenario.

ancapailldorcha · 19-02-2016 05:20PM

Post by and response to troll deleted.

py2006 · 20-02-2016 02:50PM

I find the whole consent thing worrying. At least the verbal consent. Who actually does that? Its a passion killer right? You just know if he/she wants to engage. At least right thinking people do.

When I was younger, the definition of rape was some evil scumbag lurking in the bushes at night and grabbing a random woman. That seems to have dissolved into, 'ladies, you had a good night but if you regret it the next morning you've been raped'.

How do you prove you asked her? If she regrets it the next day (and is the sort) she could easily just say she wasn't asked or doesn't remember.

Based on that definition I (as a man) have been raped at least 5 or 6 times in the last few years. Based on sex I regretted and every other sexual encounter because she never actually asked me if I wanted to.

Of course, men can't be victims!!

Why do men some people rape? Its a hard question to answer. Mental health amongst men isn't really tackled in this country. Does this lead to rapes and murders? Who knows.

Lady is a tramp · 20-02-2016 03:12PM

I was raped a couple of weeks back. "Date raped", I guess.

A few days ago, he texted me to apologise. That he'd taken drugs, that it was totally out of character for him to do what he did. Weirdly that made me feel better (although of course I didn't reply.) But at least, to know that yeah, it was wrong, what had happened.

I would be a strong advocate for womens' rights in these cases, but in my case, no. I've been told by the Gardai and the hospital and my mental health team that it was rape, but I don't care. I refused to be referred to the sexual assault unit, I refused to be physically examined, I insisted on showering before letting the Gardai take me to the hospital (against their advice, they made me sign that I was insisting on a shower even though they told me not to.)

Yeah there were bruises and bleeding and stuff, but who the hell is going to take that seriously. It's my word against his that I begged him not to do it, that I fought back, that I have the injuries to my hands to prove it. All he'd have to say is that it was just rough sex. That I wanted it. It would never stand up in court.

I guess the text he sent apologising could count as evidence, but I don't care. You see, as far as I'm concerned, I'm every bit as much to blame as him. If not moreso. And I hate myself for thinking that way. I'd never judge another woman as harshly as I'm judging myself. As far as I'm concerned, I pretty much asked for it, I'm responsible. That does NOT absolve him of his responsibility for what he did. But even though, objectively, I know I wasn't in the wrong. Emotionally, I feel very much responsible.

So why did he do it? I don't know. He said drugs, but I don't really believe that. I mean, he seemed quite lucid at the time.

Control. Power. The knowledge that you have the power to hurt someone else so deeply, both physically and emotionally, and probably permanently. And actually wanting to do it. I can't empathise with that frame of mind at all.

Psychopathic behaviour, in my opinion.

20-02-2016 03:14PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I was raped a couple of weeks back. "Date raped", I guess.

A few days ago, he texted me to apologise. That he'd taken drugs, that it was totally out of character for him to do what he did. Weirdly that made me feel better (although of course I didn't reply.) But at least, to know that yeah, it was wrong, what had happened.

I would be a strong advocate for womens' rights in these cases, but in my case, no. I've been told by the Gardai and the hospital and my mental health team that it was rape, but I don't care. I refused to be referred to the sexual assault unit, I refused to be physically examined, I insisted on showering before letting the Gardai take me to the hospital (against their advice, they made me sign that I was insisting on a shower even though they told me not to.)

Yeah there were bruises and bleeding and stuff, but who the hell is going to take that seriously. It's my word against his that I begged him not to do it, that I fought back, that I have the injuries to my hands to prove it. All he'd have to say is that it was just rough sex. That I wanted it. It would never stand up in court.

I guess the text he sent apologising could count as evidence, but I don't care. You see, as far as I'm concerned, I'm every bit as much to blame as him. If not moreso. And I hate myself for thinking that way. I'd never judge another woman as harshly as I'm judging myself. As far as I'm concerned, I pretty much asked for it, I'm responsible. That does NOT absolve him of his responsibility for what he did. But even though, objectively, I know I wasn't in the wrong. Emotionally, I feel very much responsible.

So why did he do it? I don't know. He said drugs, but I don't really believe that. I mean, he seemed quite lucid at the time.

Control. Power. The knowledge that you have the power to hurt someone else so deeply, both physically and emotionally, and probably permanently. And actually wanting to do it. I can't empathise with that frame of mind at all.

Psychopathic behaviour, in my opinion.

Please get help. You're not processing this logically, and self-blame will add to the damage you feel.

This isn't your fault, tell yourself that often and believe it.

But please do get help as soon as you can.

eviltwin · 20-02-2016 03:16PM

Lady is a tramp, I sincerely hope you reach out to the rape crisis network and get support. You deserve it no matter what the circumstances. My heart dropped reading your username, I hope it's just coincidental and not an indication of how you see yourself.

Lady is a tramp · 20-02-2016 03:18PM

Candie wrote: »

Please get help. You're not processing this logically, and self-blame will add to the damage you feel.

This isn't your fault, tell yourself that often and believe it.

But please do get help as soon as you can.

Look I'm not going to believe it wasn't my fault for a long time. I will process it. Eventually. I've just too much else going on right now. For now, it somehow helps me to take control of the situation and to say it WAS my fault.

Anyways I've some very good counsellors who I trust, also I'm being admitted to a psychiatric hospital today/tomorrow, so I guess it'll probably come up in conversation then.

I honestly amn't all that upset about it because it doesn't feel like it happened to me. I'm sure the normal emotional reactions will come in time, though.

Lady is a tramp · 20-02-2016 03:19PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Lady is a tramp, I sincerely hope you reach out to the rape crisis network and get support. You deserve it no matter what the circumstances. My heart dropped reading your username, I hope it's just coincidental and not an indication of how you see yourself.

Lol yeah actually I think I set up that account the day after it happened. Not really a conscious thing. But probably not a coincidence.

Wibbs · 20-02-2016 03:20PM

Candie wrote: »

Please get help. You're not processing this logically, and self-blame will add to the damage you feel.

This isn't your fault, tell yourself that often and believe it.

But please do get help as soon as you can.

+1000. This was rape and no mistake. Hell, even the prick knows it and admits it.

20-02-2016 03:21PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Look I'm not going to believe it wasn't my fault for a long time. I will process it. Eventually. I've just too much else going on right now. For now, it somehow helps me to take control of the situation and to say it WAS my fault.

Anyways I've some very good counsellors who I trust, also I'm being admitted to a psychiatric hospital today/tomorrow, so I guess it'll probably come up in conversation then.

I honestly amn't all that upset about it because it doesn't feel like it happened to me. I'm sure the normal emotional reactions will come in time, though.

Please do fully disclose what's happened to you to your care providers, and articulate how you're thinking about it, which sounds very damaging.

The only person responsible for rape is the rapist. Hopefully professional care in hospital will help you see that and I wish you the very best of luck with your recovery.

And please know it's not your fault.

Tasden · 20-02-2016 03:26PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Look I'm not going to believe it wasn't my fault for a long time. I will process it. Eventually. I've just too much else going on right now. For now, it somehow helps me to take control of the situation and to say it WAS my fault.

Anyways I've some very good counsellors who I trust, also I'm being admitted to a psychiatric hospital today/tomorrow, so I guess it'll probably come up in conversation then.

I honestly amn't all that upset about it because it doesn't feel like it happened to me. I'm sure the normal emotional reactions will come in time, though.

There are no "normal" reactions. And the worst thing for me was the expectations re how i should feel. So many tv shows show the same reactions/responses to being raped, so I wondered why I didn't feel that way. Why I didn't feel fearful of all men suddenly or afraid to go out again or whatever else is usually depicted on tv. There is no normal way to feel.
Blame is a common way to feel at first but it does not mean it is right. Don't pressure yourself to feel a certain way. Just discuss how you are feeling with your counsellor/support team. Its not your fault. It's never your fault.

Lady is a tramp · 20-02-2016 03:36PM

Tasden wrote: »

There are no "normal" reactions. And the worst thing for me was the expectations re how i should feel. So many tv shows show the same reactions/responses to being raped, so I wondered why I didn't feel that way. Why I didn't feel fearful of all men suddenly or afraid to go out again or whatever else is usually depicted on tv. There is no normal way to feel.

Y'know that's a funny thing. I saw my counsellor a couple of days later. She was aware of what had happened. It wasn't an official appointment, just something that happened.

I was dressed up in a nice dress and shoes, makeup on, hair done. She was clearly confused. She didn't really know what to make of it. I was completely glib and blase about the whole thing.

The more something affects me, the more blase I am about it. I hope she knows that. I think she knows that, she seems to know me better than I know myself a lot of the time!

For now I need to need my makeup on and my eyebrows done and wear nice clothes and try to be and look normal. I am getting the help I need, both publicly and privately, and I'll be OK. I can't deal with what happened now. Hopefully I can soon.

I still think he's a b@stard of the highest order. But it'll be a while before I forgive myself for what happened.

Tasden · 20-02-2016 03:44PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Y'know that's a funny thing. I saw my counsellor a couple of days later. She was aware of what had happened. It wasn't an official appointment, just something that happened.

I was dressed up in a nice dress and shoes, makeup on, hair done. She was clearly confused. She didn't really know what to make of it. I was completely glib and blase about the whole thing.

The more something affects me, the more blase I am about it. I hope she knows that. I think she knows that, she seems to know me better than I know myself a lot of the time!

For now I need to need my makeup on and my eyebrows done and wear nice clothes and try to be and look normal. I am getting the help I need, both publicly and privately, and I'll be OK. I can't deal with what happened now. Hopefully I can soon.

I still think he's a b@stard of the highest order. But it'll be a while before I forgive myself for what happened.

And that's ok. You're accepting help so on some level you do know you need help and need to process things. That will all come in time. You have nothing to forgive. You don't need to forgive yourself or forgive him. You just need to focus on processing it and moving forward. If that means wearing your full face of makeup and best clothes while you do so then so be it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Liam McPoyle · 20-02-2016 05:11PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I was raped a couple of weeks back. "Date raped", I guess.

A few days ago, he texted me to apologise. That he'd taken drugs, that it was totally out of character for him to do what he did. Weirdly that made me feel better (although of course I didn't reply.) But at least, to know that yeah, it was wrong, what had happened.

I would be a strong advocate for womens' rights in these cases, but in my case, no. I've been told by the Gardai and the hospital and my mental health team that it was rape, but I don't care. I refused to be referred to the sexual assault unit, I refused to be physically examined, I insisted on showering before letting the Gardai take me to the hospital (against their advice, they made me sign that I was insisting on a shower even though they told me not to.)

Yeah there were bruises and bleeding and stuff, but who the hell is going to take that seriously. It's my word against his that I begged him not to do it, that I fought back, that I have the injuries to my hands to prove it. All he'd have to say is that it was just rough sex. That I wanted it. It would never stand up in court.

I guess the text he sent apologising could count as evidence, but I don't care. You see, as far as I'm concerned, I'm every bit as much to blame as him. If not moreso. And I hate myself for thinking that way. I'd never judge another woman as harshly as I'm judging myself. As far as I'm concerned, I pretty much asked for it, I'm responsible. That does NOT absolve him of his responsibility for what he did. But even though, objectively, I know I wasn't in the wrong. Emotionally, I feel very much responsible.

So why did he do it? I don't know. He said drugs, but I don't really believe that. I mean, he seemed quite lucid at the time.

Control. Power. The knowledge that you have the power to hurt someone else so deeply, both physically and emotionally, and probably permanently. And actually wanting to do it. I can't empathise with that frame of mind at all.

Psychopathic behaviour, in my opinion.

I know you didn't post looking for sympathy but this makes me really really sad and im sorry you had to go through what you went through.

PopePalpatine · 20-02-2016 08:45PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

So, if 50 Shades of Grey implies women want a man to dominate them, does this mean Lolita imply men like to prey on barely-pubescent girls?

You seem to have some pathological resentment of women.

The Black Oil · 20-02-2016 08:49PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I was raped a couple of weeks back. "Date raped", I guess.

A few days ago, he texted me to apologise. That he'd taken drugs, that it was totally out of character for him to do what he did. Weirdly that made me feel better (although of course I didn't reply.) But at least, to know that yeah, it was wrong, what had happened.

I'm sorry this happened to you. What you've outlined is really what we see in other serious offences such as assaults on a Saturday night. 'I was off my face'. Some people appear to offer any excuse to distance themselves from what happened and personal responsibility isn't in their heads, at all.

orubiru · 21-02-2016 05:32PM

py2006 wrote: »

I find the whole consent thing worrying. At least the verbal consent. Who actually does that? Its a passion killer right? You just know if he/she wants to engage. At least right thinking people do.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Sure, nobody will know how much of a passion killer it is until they have actually tried it out. I do believe though that a lot of women will eventually turn round and say to the guy "OK, you don't have to keep asking me like this every single time".

Who really knows though? I'm not sure if there have been any studies and I'm pretty sure that all women were not consulted on how to draw up a proper code of sexual conduct for all men to follow. It seems sort of like a grey area.

My main worry is what happens if the consent classes etc fail to have any impact.

How would you resolve an argument where the lady running the Consent Class at university is getting opposition from a group of 10 or so girls who don't want their boyfriends to continuously, verbally, ask for consent?

It feels like the whole thing is going down a weird path where couples are entering into some kind legal contract for sex. He literally has to obtain legal permission to have sex with her. This essentially puts you in a situation where a man acquires legal "ownership" of the woman's sexuality.

How do women who won't require a man to obtain verbal, continuous, affirmative consent fit into this equation? Will they be shunned or accepted or will they be openly vilified?

Does this end up in a situation where sex can only be had under a legally binding contract (let's just call it "marriage") and any sex had outside of that (lets just call it "pre-marital sex") is deemed illegal and punishable by law?

I'm not saying that this will happen. I am only semi-seriously suggesting it. However, what happens if the consent classes and such fail to have any significant impact? More drastic measures?

Lemming · 21-02-2016 08:11PM

orubiru wrote: »

It feels like the whole thing is going down a weird path where couples are entering into some kind legal contract for sex. He literally has to obtain legal permission to have sex with her. This essentially puts you in a situation where a man acquires legal "ownership" of the woman's sexuality.

How do women who won't require a man to obtain verbal, continuous, affirmative consent fit into this equation? Will they be shunned or accepted or will they be openly vilified?

There is also the notion of whether or not she has to ask him for consent when she wants it? Or is it to be suggested that either a woman doesn't have to ask and can simply demand/take when expected or because a guy has an erection therefore "he must want it/women can't rape men/etc."

Whilst having a healthy and robust discourse on being sensible when it comes to matters sexual and avoiding any misunderstandings between two adults is to be encouraged, the key emphasis should be on the word "healthy". The current message that is being put out there is anything but healthy; less discussion and more dictat of what the guys should have to do, with absolutely nothing about when the scenario gets turned around. It's all very one-sided and not a little insulting as a guy to be implied - if not told outright - that I'm a rapist in waiting, I need to be less rapey, and that I am to personally take responsibility for all the rapey things that any men anywhere ever do.

anothernight · 21-02-2016 08:23PM

Lemming wrote: »

There is also the notion of whether or not she has to ask him for consent when she wants it? Or is it to be suggested that either a woman doesn't have to ask and can simply demand/take when expected or because a guy has an erection therefore "he must want it/women can't rape men/etc." There would appear to be lots of discussion dictats of what the guys should have to do, but absolutely nothing about when the scenario gets turned around.

Scroll down to see the poster with reversed genders: http://www.drcc.ie/media1/consent-page/

Lemming · 21-02-2016 08:29PM

anothernight wrote: »

Scroll down to see the poster with reversed genders: http://www.drcc.ie/media1/consent-page/

Wow. Buried at the very bottom of the page! Go DRCC! Almost like an afterthought.

But at least they have added something, so it's an improvement on all the sh1te going on in the media and in major campuses.

Edit: I think that DRCC would get a more encompassing message out there if those two images were a side-by-side thing (or one image, flip-sides if you will). It would also make the fact that there are two seperate messages (one for him, one for her) very obvious rather than people seeing similar colours and then simply assuming it is the same image at the bottom of the page as the top having taken the time to read through the article and getting to the end just move on. Which is a pity as the article itself does its best to stay neutral and give advice to everyone rather than just focus on one gender.

anothernight · 21-02-2016 08:46PM

Lemming wrote: »

Wow. Buried at the very bottom of the page! Go DRCC! Almost like an afterthought.

But at least they have added something, so it's an improvement on all the sh1te going on in the media and in major campuses.

Edit: I think that DRCC would get a more encompassing message out there if those two images were a side-by-side thing (or one image, flip-sides if you will). It would also make the fact that there are two seperate messages (one for him, one for her) very obvious rather than people seeing similar colours and then simply assuming it is the same image at the bottom of the page as the top having taken the time to read through the article and getting to the end just move on. Which is a pity as the article itself does its best to stay neutral and give advice to everyone rather than just focus on one gender.

I agree that it's terrible design, but I think they meant to have an image in the beginning, one at the end, and all the text (and video) in between. I honestly don't think they meant anything by it, especially when the content of the page is completely gender-neutral.

EDIT: Over on this page you only have the male version: http://www.drcc.ie/2015/09/ask-consent-campaign-launch-by-minister-for-justice/

The Black Oil · 22-02-2016 11:10PM

My sense of the consent debate is that it's not in great shape at the moment. Debate the topic, in general? OK. Consent classes? Debate that too. Make consent media/PR campaigns more visible - go for it. Fire out a few tweets and columns..., well, we appear to be more fixated on clamour than solutions. Thinking back, I don't think my sex education in the 90s had much of a discussion beyond biology and contraception i.e. condoms. Knowing Ireland, this likely hasn't changed much. Louise O' Neill ends her book with an afterthought that includes (paraphrasing): "We need to talk about rape. We need to talk about consent. We need talk and talk and talk so that the Emma's (lead character) of this world feel supported". OK, and how are we going to do that, what comes next?

I did some searching about consent on Google Scholar last night - I've not poured over any of the following in great detail, but I was a little surprised at what I found.

I criticised CSI et al in my OP. Depending on the show, perhaps they've a positive role to play. Take these with a grain of salt as research abstracts rarely give you the full picture.

Law & Order, CSI, and NCIS: The Association Between Exposure to Crime Drama Franchises, Rape Myth Acceptance, and Sexual Consent Negotiation Among College Students

Findings indicate that exposure to the Law & Order franchise is associated with decreased rape myth acceptance and increased intentions to adhere to expressions of sexual consent and refuse unwanted sexual activity; whereas exposure to the CSI franchise is associated with decreased intentions to seek consent and decreased intentions to adhere to expressions of sexual consent. Exposure to the NCIS franchise was associated with decreased intentions to refuse unwanted sexual activity. These results indicate that exposure to the specific content of each crime drama franchise may have differential results on sexual consent negotiation behaviors.

The UK's National Union of Students have a report: That's* what she said: Women students' experiences of 'lad culture' in higher education *(emphasis theirs). And "In light of the findings, NUS has called on Women and Equalities Minister Jo Swinson to convene a summit on ‘lad culture’." Jo Swinson lost her seat in the 2015 UK general election, the above report was published 2012.

Page 18
Research on sex and relationships amongst undergraduates in the UK is relatively underdeveloped in comparison with our American counterparts

OK, more research needed and Ireland's probably similar to the UK in this respect.

Page 35
‘Lad culture’ as thought by our participants to involve the following;

- ‘Banter’
- Sexism and misogyny
- Sexualisation and the objectification of women
- Rape supportive attitudes, sexual harrassment

"The one guy in my group of friends who went to an all-boys school, we went out fresher’s week and…I was likely ‘go in and buy some jugs’ and he grabbed my boob and said ‘I’ll have this one’….he’s one of my really good friends now…but I just found that so acceptable. I was shocked, I slapped him quite hard actually. I just didn’t know what to do." Participant C

Prick

Page 37

For almost half the women in our study, ‘lad culture’ was highly sexualised and involved pressure to engage in a high frequency of sexual contact with a number of different partners. Participants noted the dominance of sexual themes, some derogatory towards women, in ‘laddish' conversations, with one interviewee reciting ‘banter’ about ‘notches on the bedpost’, and phrases such as ‘I’d tape that’

Page 38

"Facebook has a Uni Lad group which regularly posts demeaning things about women and rape jokes, which I and my fellow female students find appalling. I’ve seen my male university Facebook friends have ‘like’ this page" (Interviewee 16)

There's no doubt a lot of this goes on. It's not difficult see how columnists have come to their conclusions. If Louise's recent column had same something like 'whilst UCD's recent finding were _____, a 2012 report from the UK found _____' her column might have had more weight been less predictable. I'd bet there's an awful stench desperation and self-centredness about some of these Facebook pages, tbqh. I'll leave reading of all 84 pages of report for another day. The ‘Recommendations and next steps’ section of the report (page 65) is insanely short, half a flippin’ page…it's just the 'lad culture' summit, as mentioned earlier.

There appears to be range of different studies out there looking at various aspects of the problem and I only had a cursory glance. I'm not going to discuss ones where alcohol is highlighted, for now. I've written a number of position papers and policy docs for my job. I don't work in justice system or in an area related to sexual offences. If I had the time and energy I'd really go into this, just to see what's out there.

Take this, for instance. [URL="hhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/258187218_Postfeminist_sexual_agency_Young_women's_negotiations_of_sexual_consent"]Postfeminist sexual agency: Young women’s negotiations of sexual consent[/URL]

Our analysis revealed that the ‘just say no’ approach of risk-avoidance discourse permeated our young women’s consciousness and influenced their perceptions in line with neoliberal ideals encouraging individual responsibility in experiences of violence and inequality. All of the young women in this study had been exposed to dominant risk-avoidance discourses in their experiences of school sex education and sexual violence prevention. The key tenet underpinning these discourses, of women needing to assertively communicate their sexual choices, was also reinforced in their everyday lives through advice from family and friends to be sexually responsible.

From some participants

If you go home with someone you don’t know, you’re putting yourself in that position. Even though you might think differently, everyone knows that gives him the idea that you’re going to have sex, so if they threat[en] or force [you] then [that’s] sexual assault but if it’s just normal advances and you’re too gutless to say ‘I don’t want to do this’ I wouldn’t class that as sexual assault: I would class that as a weakness on your part. (Lisa)

if you’ve been sending certain signals all night and you go off with a guy you can’t just pull out at the last minute . . . you both know things will happen . . . with guys I’ve met, when you know they expect to get laid, you know you have to keep your word.(Tracey)

Researchers

We found that these young women felt that they implicitly consent to sex through particular actions, such as going home with a man or engaging in heated sexual talk. Once these actions are carried out, then they have no choice (even during non pleasurable or coercive encounters) but to follow through with intercourse as it would be inappropriate to simply ‘say no’.

Like the women’s experiences of casual sex, some of the participants described sexual experiences within their intimate relationships as distinctly unpleasant and coercive. This was the case for Holly who returned home with her partner after a social evening and passed out drunk. She later awoke to find her partner attempting to use her body for his sexual pleasure without her consent or her willing participation:

I was like what is he doing? Can’t he see I’m drunk . . . that really upset me that he didn’t really give a **** about what I wanted. (Holly)

So, there are huge personal and expectations here and gender is a factor, I don't think that can be denied. I found this study quite insightful to hear another aspects of women's voices and experiences. Perhaps if more of these negative experiences were used in campaigns then it might help to clearly highlight some of the crap they have put with.

One might criticise aspects of academia for being even further to the left of socialism, but if there's good, reliable research indicating possible solutions then it needs to be brought into the mainstream. No shutting it down because it offends or is perceived as blaming someone.

Lisacatlover · 23-02-2016 10:15AM

The Black Oil wrote: »

There appears to be range of different studies out there looking at various aspects of the problem and I only had a cursory glance. I'm not going to discuss ones where alcohol is highlighted, for now. I've written a number of position papers and policy docs for my job. I don't work in justice system or in an area related to sexual offences. If I had the time and energy I'd really go into this, just to see what's out there.

Take this, for instance. [URL="hhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/258187218_Postfeminist_sexual_agency_Young_women's_negotiations_of_sexual_consent"]Postfeminist sexual agency: Young women’s negotiations of sexual consent[/URL]

From some participants

So, there are huge personal and expectations here and gender is a factor, I don't think that can be denied. I found this study quite insightful to hear another aspects of women's voices and experiences. Perhaps if more of these negative experiences were used in campaigns then it might help to clearly highlight some of the crap they have put with.

One might criticise aspects of academia for being even further to the left of socialism, but if there's good, reliable research indicating possible solutions then it needs to be brought into the mainstream. No shutting it down because it offends or is perceived as blaming someone.

The second link couldn't really be called 'good, reliable research' it's based on an interview with only 8 women, who all just happen to express similar opinions, and clearly an exercise in supporting what the researches already believe and want to argue in favour of.

I think that's part of the problem to be honest. A lot of the academic work out there is an agenda driven exercise in confirmation bias. People setting out to support their preconceived ideas rather than determine the reality of things.

newport2 · 23-02-2016 12:02PM

Lisacatlover wrote: »

I think that's part of the problem to be honest. A lot of the academic work out there is an agenda driven exercise in confirmation bias. People setting out to support their preconceived ideas rather than determine the reality of things.

+1000

That's a big problem in a lot of topics, not just this one. And a lot of people fall for it, hook, line and sinker.

Is it just my perception or has it always been this bad? I think because of the way media has changed, there is not as much money and time put into open minded and unbiased analysis to determine reality as you say. Probably largely due to the fact that, particularly in emotive topics such as this one, researchers (and the universities supposedly behind them) would be reluctant to publish the results if they didn't show the "right" outcome for fear of the reaction to follow. There's too much you're not allowed say now, irregardless of whether it's true or not.

Wibbs · 23-02-2016 12:42PM

newport2 wrote: »

Is it just my perception or has it always been this bad?

It seems to be getting worse and not just a perception. The Lancet reported on a medical science conclave in the UK a while back where speakers were growing increasingly concerned over the trend towards shakiness in much medical science studies and research. A quote from the PDF article said:

this symposium—on the reproducibility and reliability of biomedical research, held at the Wellcome Trust in London last week—touched on one of the most sensitive issues in science today: the idea that something has gone fundamentally wrong with one of our greatest human creations.

The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, “poor methods get results”.

IMHO another line would be better applied to the subject at hand: Part of the problem is that no-one is incentivised to be right. Instead, scientists are incentivised to be productive and innovative. I'd swap out bits in the last sentence to read "Journalists and commentators(and politicians) are incentivised to be noticed, productive and to fit the expected narrative".

The Black Oil · 23-02-2016 08:40PM

Lisacatlover wrote: »

The second link couldn't really be called 'good, reliable research' it's based on an interview with only 8 women, who all just happen to express similar opinions, and clearly an exercise in supporting what the researches already believe and want to argue in favour of.

I think that's part of the problem to be honest. A lot of the academic work out there is an agenda driven exercise in confirmation bias. People setting out to support their preconceived ideas rather than determine the reality of things.

There's truth in what you say, of course. Small sample sizes can't be generalised. If you're looking for red flags in the literature that might seem too agenda driven, the NUS report I referenced might well be interpreted as an example of that. It's abysmally short on solutions, written by a researcher in Gender Studies - a section of academia whose very existence appears to gets some people's backs up, it contains go to buzzwords like 'gendering' of university campuses, something which suit the likes of Mullally down to the ground. One must be critical, but I think not overly so otherwise there's the risk of pushing the debate in the wrong direction and at the more hysterical end we get into nonsense like no-platforming, which is counterproductive.

If you are aware of more neutral yet robust studies I'd be happy to hear them.

24-02-2016 12:58PM

Leaving aside metal health and looking at behavioural issues.

The big issue about consent classes or the like is that underneath its not about consent as such it about trying to reshape relationships and to an extent save people from themselves.

For example if someone enrages in a sex act they were not totally happy with: because of passive aggressive behaviour by the person they are in a relationship. There is a lot more going on that consent.

nozzferrahhtoo · 25-02-2016 12:34PM

OP I do not expect you are going to get a coherent answer to your question. We are talking about one single aspect of human behavior and then asking why people do it. As with most human behavior, there are going to be any number of answers. 10 reasons. 100 reasons. 1000 reasons. Even 10000?

It would be like asking „Why do men play football“. You are not going to get a coherent single answer to it. Some do it to stay fit. Some do it to be part of a social group. Some do it because they are driven to win and beat others. Some do it because they are made to some how. And so on and so on.

So why do men rape? Any number of reasons. And each case of a person raping another will be due to one, or a combination, of those reasons. So when someone tells you „It is about power“ or some other sound bite answer they are simply wrong from the outset.

For some it is about power. For some it is a desire to have sex so strong that it over rides morality and emotion. For some they are just psychopaths who do not care about morality or emotion. For some it will be because they hate women and want to hurt them.

For some it will be the assumption of consent from someone not capable of giving it... based on previous words or actions leading up to that point. The "She came to me hotel room and got drunk" types we have already seen on this thread for example.

For some it will be some messed up view of what it is to "be a man". For some it will be some kind of pressure (social, psychological, some narrative or something else) to "complete the deed". For some it will be the mistaken idea, that some minority of men do appear to have, that "no means yes and really all women want to be raped".

For some it will be…. Well you get the picture. There is no one answer and I could go on listing all day. I imagine every user could probably throw in 10 of their own. But suffice to say.... rape is a complex issue, a complex human behavior, and a sub-set of another complex.... perhaps even THE most complex.... discussion of humans..... human sexuality.

Even the word "rape" is an umberella term to some degree, covering everything from the violent attacker leaping from the bushes, to the actions of a known and trusted family member or friend.

So you are not likely to get any satisfaction in finding an explanation for it I am afraid. It is a many faceted issue with potentially years of study one could invest in any one facet of it.

Lu Tze wrote: »

I find I have very little time for people on any topic which just criticise and highlight problems without giving any thoughts on concepts and ideas for resolving the problems they are highlighting?

Yet diagnosis of what a problem _actually is_ generally tends to be the most important step in solving it. So I have no issue with people discussing, clarifying and laying out the boundaries of what a problem actually is, before even remotely moving to discussing solutions for it.

If you do, great then simply stay out of such conversations would be useful advice. But other than letting us know it bothers you, you have not actually presented any _actual_ issue with doing it.

And I always find myself wondering at the motives of people who wander into a thread on a topic only to moan about how they have no time for the topic, or people discussing that topic.

Let us remind ourselves here the thread topic (it is there in the thread title if you need help) is "Why do men rape?" not "What ideas have we got to prevent people from raping" or anything else.

nozzferrahhtoo · 25-02-2016 12:36PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

Do you actually understand the terms "rape" and "forceful" and "consent" I wonder? Because what you wrote here suggests very strongly that you do not. I have not, nor have I interest in, reading that particular book. But from what I have heard about it, it described a CONSENSUAL S&M/Bondage relationship between two people.

There is a WORLD of difference between consenting to and enjoying "force" in the bedroom, and being forced to have sex. They are not the same thing and you are attempting here to paint them as being the same.

So the "dichotomy" you imagine does not exist, nor does the "wanting it both ways" that you have entirely fabricated.

To add a further level of how wrong you are however, you are extrapolating to a wanton extreme. That is to say... just because one, or some, women enjoy forcefulness and even pain in the bedroom.... that does not mean all of them do.

So not only are you extrapolating a generalization of women from a character in a work of FICTION that does not even EXIST, even if the person did exist you would be extrapolating that "women want it both ways" from the actions or desires of a single person, or small minority.

But your nonsense is exactly the type that occurs when someone takes the actions or positions of a hand full of people and turns it into an "Us against all of them" issue and generalizes a whole group of people based on it.

frostyjacks wrote: »

You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent.

No it does not. Are you Roosh V or something? It sounds like something he would write, literally word for word. Returning to a location with someone implies nothing but you wish to spend time in that location with that someone. Any other "implication" you imagine is entirely of your own fabrication.

frostyjacks wrote: »

Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

It is not "the same" no. It is in fact "worse" in my opinion. Or at least it would be if I saw any utility in ranking them as "better" or "worse".

But in both cases there is a person leaping on another person to force sex without consent on them. In one case however it is a random attack. In the other it is ALSO a breach of trust.

In the former there is of course the horror of the "can happen to anyone, anytime, any place" but me personally, subjectively and entirely my own feeling and opinion, I find rape in a position and situation of trust to be the more horrifying of the two types/categories.

And the MORE a position of trust a person is in the MORE horrifying I find it. Which you might find is why people find things like Child Rape by the Clergy in our country to be more abhorrent than Child Rape in general. Because there is the added lair of the breach of trust represented by it.

frostyjacks wrote: »

A woman who goes to a hotel room has a reasonable expectation that sexual activity may occur.

Perhaps you would do well to learn the difference between "expectation" and "consent" then.

Firstly there is no reason to actually have that expectation. I travel a lot to hotel rooms because I like traveling to see live music. In the past I have invited many people, sometimes one sometimes more, of both sexes, to those hotel rooms to partake of further conversation, the mini bar, and so forth.

No expectation of sex was involved or aroused. So you are simply wrong to suggest that going to a hotel room automatically means such expectation. Perhaps YOU expect sex if someone accompanies you to your hotel room, but this is a comment on the state of your thought processes, not the state of actual reality.

But despite you being wrong from the outset, even if you WERE right about such expectations, your point is _still_ wrong. Because even if you consider sex more likely in that location, and so expect it, that does not in any way imply consent. Even a little bit. Expectation of sex and consent to sex are entirely separate things and you should be wary of conflating the two baselessly in order to justify crime.

Canadel wrote: »

Every person is a potential rapist. Having the potential to rape does not necessarily mean you are ever going to show the capacity to rape or develop into a rapist. But the potential is still there.

I fear that that may simply be a pedantic point of no actual use or merit then? It is pedantically correct to say every person is a potential rapist. But you could say that about any person on any subject.

I am a potential athlete. I am a potential dictator of the next North Korea. I am a potential leader of love and peace for a newly founded religion. I am a potential chef. I am a potential lotto winner.

And as a greater man than me once said.... a point that says everything.... ends up saying nothing at all. And rather than furthering the actual topic of the thread.... it appears to put people on the off topic tangential "No I am not" defensive.

In the context of "Why do some men rape?" is there any merit to the point that everyone is a potential rapist? Does it say or do anything for the actual topic?

The Black Oil · 25-02-2016 12:53PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why do some men murder
why to some steal
why to some commit terrorism

you'll no more understand the reason behind rape than you would any of the above IMO. to put it very simply, some people are just 'despicable excuses for humanity'

Certainly true. The reasons for those 3 are at some level (imo) more identifiable than explanations for rape. They range from domestic, pre-meditated to criminality. Drugs, money, selfishness to political instability and religious ideology can be linked to points two and three..

However, there's no one writing about 'murder culture' in this country is there?* Apart from maybe gangland, which is a very specific. Perhaps Paul Williams is the Mullally of his world, then.

*Or gendering the bejaysus out of it.

We had decades of murder with The Troubles on this island. Maybe that was a murder culture.

Why do some men commit rape?

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