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Why do some men commit rape?

  • 18-02-2016 09:16PM
    #1
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 19,086 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I’ve been trying to remember the first time I heard the word rape. It was probably in secondary school*, a news report, scandals about the church or a reconstruction or an episode of Crimeline, certainly before I ever used the internet in the late 1990s. It's likely there were references* to things like football team A raped team B, before Youtube comments, internet death threats and social media. Banter, 'banter', or 'rape culture'?

    Clearly, rape something I regard as deeply disturbing. It's affront to everything I believe. This undoubtedly holds true for most people. I’ve never known anyone who has been brought before the courts in relation to this crime. I have spoken to one person who was affected by it and it instilled a fear in her I can’t imagine, for many years, and severe mental health issues. To be blunt, I don’t know how anyone gets an erection at the thought of doing it. Obviously some do. We know that sexual thoughts and impulses aren’t always easy to categorise, and out of this it's not surprising that some are more pathological in nature.

    If we look at the CSI version of rape, it’s usually dealt with in 45 minutes. It’s a family member, a work colleague or maybe a popular school boy whose word most the town will take over the girl’s. Therefore it's not reported or dismissed as being her fault. Occasionally, it’s a man down the dark alley. Or the serial off the wall weirdo teased out over a couple of episodes in a more high quality show. Infrequently in popular culture is the full extent of the reality of rape depicted accurately, I suspect.

    With the tabloid media, the headlines often appear to for a 'depraved monster', type approach. I don't think this is particularly helpful when you consider that many attacks have been carried out by those in positions of trust. This is not to say the tabloids don't go into that aspect, I'm sure they do, but I think outing someone as a monster doesn't particularly remind people that some attacks are likely carried out by 'ordinary' men, not CSI psychopaths.

    There's the 'it's about power' perspective which tends to get thrown around. I've never fully understood this because it seems to be just left at that. Power in the moment, physical or psychological power? Something else?

    I've just finished Asking for It by Louise O’ Neill which is a rather unflinching look at rape. Some of Louise's response to the recent UCD situation and her rise in prominence in the world of Irish feminism had me concerned she's cut from the same cloth of as Una Mullally in that hyperfocused way of making every other thing about gender. The book is good, though. At its heart is the local and wider response to rape - blame, blame, blame. Hence the title. In turn, the experience of victim is that of racing thoughts, the self-doubt, self-blame. It's set in current times with the impact of social media underpinning the level of judgement and a disproportionately negative response to the main character, Emma. The author also has a couple of things to say about the low conviction rate and how the judicial system is tilted more towards the accused. I should also say that the attackers in the book appear to be entitled dickheads who can fall back on their community reputation as part of their denial. Handy thing, that.

    To get back to the title of this post, why do some men rape? Well, I had a look on ye old Google. This led me to an Australian website/rape and sexual assault service, which states:
    There is strong evidence to show that a significant proportion of men - and some women - honestly believe that it is alright for a man to force a woman to have sex, whether she wants to or not.

    Three research projects have been carried out in different areas of South Australia, involving over 1000 young men. About one third of them could identify situations in which they believe that it is OK for a man to force a woman to have sex. (The word 'force' is actually used in the question.)

    The circumstances include
    • they have had sex together before
    • she has had sex with other men before
    • she has let him touch her 'above the waist'
    • she has let him touch her 'below the waist'
    • he has spent a lot of money on her

    People who hold these beliefs do not think of 'forcing a woman to have sex' as being wrong. They probably do not think of it as being rape.

    The article also addresses power, violence, feminist interpretations of rape and responsibility as regards victims. Note that this page has a copyright for 2005 and says the last update was in April 2010. One might attack the somewhat vague stats here ('about one third', vague demographics, etc), but it's interesting that some women appear to hold these beliefs too. I would interpret the 5 bullet points as the following:

    1) It's happened before, therefore I get a free pass, fcuk consent
    2) She's experienced, easy. She's horny like me, all the time.
    3) She's open to it, actually communicating she wants the ride.
    4) As above
    5) Entitlement, expecting something back, mememe syndrome.

    For the Irish context, I had a look on Rape Crisis Centre website and didn't really find a webpage directly comparable to the above. There is the 2002 SAVI report, which is almost 400 pages long.
    The prevalence of sexual violence in Ireland is unknown. Incomplete evidence from crime statistics, previous research reports and service uptake figures is insufficient to understand the nature and extent of the problem and to plan and evaluate services and preventive interventions.

    ~

    A survey assessing the prevalence of sexual violence was conducted by anonymous telephone interviews with randomly selected participants from the general population in Ireland. They were interviewed at home telephone numbers in the period March to June 2001.

    Prevalence of Sexual Violence
    Child Sexual Abuse (defined as sexual abuse of children and adolescents under age 17 years)

    Girls: One in five women (20.4 per cent) reported experiencing contact sexual abuse in childhood with a further one in ten (10.0 per cent) reporting non-contact sexual abuse. In over a quarter of cases of contact abuse (i.e. 5.6 per cent of all girls), the abuse involved penetrative sex — either vaginal, anal or oral sex.

    Boys: One in six men (16.2 per cent) reported experiencing contact sexual abuse in childhood with a further one in fourteen (7.4 per cent) reporting non-contact sexual abuse. In one of every six cases of contact abuse (i.e. 2.7 per cent of all boys), the abuse involved penetrative sex — either anal or oral sex.

    ~

    In sum, in four-fifths of cases of child sexual abuse, the perpetrator was known to the abused person. The perpetrator was another child or adolescent (17 years old or younger) in one out of every four cases.

    The report also discusses the experience of adults. More recently, the RCC's 2014 annual report it says that 23.5% of over 9,000 counselling calls it received were from males.

    I see that the RCC has teamed up with the Union of Students in Ireland with its 'ask consent', campaign.

    her.jpg
    Maybe you’re a little unsure about what consent is – and what it isn’t? You may have heard the idea that “no means no,” but this doesn’t really cover it because it puts the responsibility on one person to resist or accept, rather than both of you being responsible for taking things to the next level. It also makes consent about what a partner doesn’t want, instead of about being able to openly express what they do want. Consent should be freely given, and an enthusiastic, clearly communicated and ongoing yes. Never assume consent.

    Yes, I'm unsure about being a human being, unsure about the other person's sobriety, ability to communicate, basic decency. Unsure and assuming the other person is open to stuff 24/7. #angrywhitemanoninternetzbasheskeyboard

    Despite all of this, I feel as though I could spend days researching and even with some of the attitudes on display, I don't think I'd be any wiser about why rape occurs, pathologically. Maybe that's a job for Google Scholar. I know I've not addressed pornography, either. Finally, let me briefly repeat what I said in another thread, if we (Irish society: broadcast and print media) are to have a productive discourse on rape, it should be victim centred, not Una "yet every group of guys has a buddy who is a little wayward, and whose behaviour towards women is dubious" Mullally leading the charge.

    Over to you, tGC.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Interesting opener alright. May need a night to sleep on my reply. :)

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    The question I'd like to ask is how women can falsely accuse a man of raping her and avoid a custodial sentence. That pisses me off


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭Eircom_Sucks


    for sex ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,624 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    why do some men murder
    why to some steal
    why to some commit terrorism

    you'll no more understand the reason behind rape than you would any of the above IMO. to put it very simply, some people are just 'despicable excuses for humanity'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel



    There's the 'it's about power' perspective which tends to get thrown around. I've never fully understood this because it seems to be just left at that. Power in the moment, physical or psychological power? Something else?
    That's because it is about power. Power and sexual repression.

    And I'm also going to add a lack of sexual education in schools. You hear lots of people complaining that young people are learning about sex from what they see in porn, yet a lot of the time these very same people will oppose sex education in schools and instead argue that it's a parent's job. Well guess what? A lot of parents aren't doing their job. A lot are incapable of doing it. A lot are victims of the sexual repression I already mentioned. Sex education should be a core part of the secondary school curriculum. Kids should know as much about sex, sexual health and sexual responsibility by the time they leave school as they do about their other subjects. They may struggle with Maths, English and Irish, but teach them about sex correctly, by which I mean in a healthy, responsible and scientific way, and they will thrive and develop. It will be the most important stuff they ever learn.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,253 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    When I saw the length of your op I gave up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Ezra Wibberley


    Canadel wrote:
    And I say this as a rapist myself.

    Excuse me? Care to elaborate??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    Excuse me?
    Excused.
    Care to elaborate??
    Not really. Do you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    why do some men murder
    why to some steal
    why to some commit terrorism

    you'll no more understand the reason behind rape than you would any of the above IMO. to put it very simply, some people are just 'despicable excuses for humanity'

    People murder for all sorts of reasons. Most murders are fights that go too far, or moments of white hot rage, or even self defence.

    Stealing is probably the easiest crime of all to understand.

    Terrorism is also relatively easy to understand, if you've ever had a firmly held belief, you can see how people can be influenced and brainwashed to kill for political purposes.

    I'm female so hope it's ok to post here. I've not read Asking For It yet, I follow Louise O'Neill on Facebook and I'm starting to feel very uncomfortable about what she posts. I work and interact with a lot of guys and I don't see what herself and Una Mullaly see. I see that if a guy *is* behaving inappropriately on a night out or whatever I've seen him being steered away by his mates. That does happen. Una was trying to make a gender thing out of being verbally abused by some of Dublin's more feral inhabitants... I've male friends who've been mugged and abused by these types, absolutely not gender-based.

    In answer to your question OP, why do men rape? They're not the only ones that do. There are female paedophiles and female rapists too. There are women all over the world who abet abuse, either by turning a blind eye or by actively procuring victims. The men here who are not rapists cannot give you an insight into their minds any more than I can tell you what an earth a grown woman wants from an 11 year old boy.

    I do think it comes from a place of dehumanising, rather than a sexual desire as such. But you could say the same of all crimes. Also Ireland's national pastime of getting blackout drunk doesn't help with the blurring of lines either.

    I find the shutting down of any common sense advice towards women incredibly irritating too. In an ideal world, yes, we could do whatever we want, but we can't. I'd advise male friends not to go around certain areas of Dublin at night- same as women. Basic Internet safety states if you don't want your mum or boss to see it, don't have it on a big cloud server in California. It's not empowering for anyone to send nudes anyway. It's ****ing stupid. You can still feel sympathy for women who find themselves in that situation while ensuring it doesn't happen to you.

    Just on a note on the Aussie survey, I lived there and found it a far more sexist society than Ireland. I think Irish men actually have much more respect for women.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    Excuse me? Care to elaborate??

    Presume it's gallows humour on the "all men are rapists" line. I hope anyway!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Ezra Wibberley


    Canadel wrote:
    Not really. Do you?


    I've not said anything to elaborate on. You threw out a bit of a grenade. I won't ask further questions as it appears you're not open to follow-ups.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Ezra Wibberley


    ivytwine wrote:
    Presume it's gallows humour on the "all men are rapists" line. I hope anyway!

    Hopefully.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    I've not said anything to elaborate on.
    Exactly. I'll elaborate if you do.
    You threw out a bit of a grenade. I won't ask further questions as it appears you're not open to follow-ups.
    Did I? I am open to follow up. It's just interesting how you ignored the rest of my post to find out more about me personally on an anonymous forum. Why not discuss the thread topic instead and the argument I made?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    ivytwine wrote: »
    Presume it's gallows humour on the "all men are rapists" line. I hope anyway!
    Well, we're all potential rapists, but it was just humour. For the most part.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭salamanca22


    Why are some women rapists?

    I hate the fact that some people choose to label all men as potential rapists. That is very far from the fact.

    The definition of potential is as follows:
    having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.

    Now I don't know about you but I definitely do not fit that description. I may have the physical ability to do it, I am larger than most women but I definitely do not have the mental capacity to do it. The potential for my brain to tell my body to do something so heinous is not there so therefore no, I am not a potential rapist and would appreciate it if society would stop telling people that I am.

    Rape is a very serious issue, muddying the waters with weak arguments and in the case of some people watering the meaning down ala "He is raping me by not taking my side of the argument" that some 'feminazis' these days like to throw out. The feminist movement once stood for something great, and indeed still does but views like this just damage it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

    The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭Canadel


    ivytwine wrote: »
    It's not empowering for anyone to send nudes anyway. It's ****ing stupid.
    Well, that's not entirely true. While I don't consider it altogether empowering to send nudes, others do, and I do believe that those people who embrace nudity and have no hiccups about nudity are engaging in a kind of empowerment. The naked body is the most natural thing in the world and yet only a few months ago the internet went into hysteria over the leaked nude photos of a few famous people. Nothing wrong with nudity, or public nudity, which is a class issue for the most part.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

    The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

    You really don't get it at all do you. Going back to someone's hotel room does not imply consent AT ALL. There is no distinction between the scenarios you present, if sex happens without consent its rape, be it in an alleyway or a marital bed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

    The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

    Being violated is being violated, whether it's a stranger in the bushes or someone you trusted enough to go back to a hotel room with. One may be more of a grey area but they are both rape.

    Enjoying dominant/rough/any other type of consensual sex is not wanting someone to force themselves upon you without your consent. That is not "wanting it both ways".


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    You really don't get it at all do you. Going back to someone's hotel room does not imply consent AT ALL. There is no distinction between the scenarios you present, if sex happens without consent its rape, be it in an alleyway or a marital bed.

    There clearly is a distinction. A woman walking home alone at night does not expect to be pounced on. A woman who goes to a hotel room has a reasonable expectation that sexual activity may occur.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    I haven't read the book referenced, though I have seen similar posts to the op, and newspaper articles previously. They seem to be great at highlighting problems, but also short on proposing any solutions.

    Just to take one point, the low conviction rates. Would the op or anybody else like to propose a a solution for this?

    Would people be comfortable with an exception being made for only one crime (rape) where the burden of proof is reduced for a conviction to be given? A crime which under current legislation, can only be commuted by one gender? The implications for men falsely accused would be enormous in this scenario. Any other suggestions?

    I find I have very little time for people on any topic which just criticise and highlight problems without giving any thoughts on concepts and ideas for resolving the problems they are highlighting?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Lu Tze wrote: »
    Just to take one point, the low conviction rates. Would the op or anybody else like to propose a a solution for this?

    Speedy reporting of the crime. If a person waits weeks or months to report a crime of this nature, a lot of it comes down to one person's word against another's. Having physical evidence will go a long way to securing a conviction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    Well, Op....

    In most countries men are the only persons able to commit the act of rape(legally speaking).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Canadel wrote: »
    And I say this as a rapist myself.
    Canadel wrote: »
    Well, we're all potential rapists, but it was just humour. For the most part.

    Mod note:
    Less of the attention seeking please


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    There clearly is a distinction. A woman walking home alone at night does not expect to be pounced on. A woman who goes to a hotel room has a reasonable expectation that sexual activity may occur.

    It's nothing to do with what you consider people's reasonable expectations are. It's about consent, and the absence of that, regardless of the circumstances, is rape. If you can't grasp that I'm not willing to engage with you in further discussion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ivytwine


    I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

    The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

    If you're using that logic then you think marital rape is just fine and dandy. Which it isn't. Even if you have sex once with someone, that doesn't mean consent is given forevermore. This applies to men and women of all orientations.

    RE Fifty Shades, it's a dreadful book and the relationship is very unhealthy, but he gets her to sign a contract to issue her consent. Can you have clearer consent than that? I don't think so. I actually feel quite sorry for your clear lack of sexual imagination if you can't get that powerplays can be fun, when both parties want it- and men do enjoy domination too.
    Canadel wrote: »
    Well, that's not entirely true. While I don't consider it altogether empowering to send nudes, others do, and I do believe that those people who embrace nudity and have no hiccups about nudity are engaging in a kind of empowerment. The naked body is the most natural thing in the world and yet only a few months ago the internet went into hysteria over the leaked nude photos of a few famous people. Nothing wrong with nudity, or public nudity, which is a class issue for the most part.

    I do agree to a certain extent, but we don't live in a society mature enough to think that way. Instead it's just "lol bewbs".
    Lu Tze wrote: »
    I haven't read the book referenced, though I have seen similar posts to the op, and newspaper articles previously. They seem to be great at highlighting problems, but also short on proposing any solutions.

    Just to take one point, the low conviction rates. Would the op or anybody else like to propose a a solution for this?

    Would people be comfortable with an exception being made for only one crime (rape) where the burden of proof is reduced for a conviction to be given? A crime which under current legislation, can only be commuted by one gender? The implications for men falsely accused would be enormous in this scenario. Any other suggestions?

    I find I have very little time for people on any topic which just criticise and highlight problems without giving any thoughts on concepts and ideas for resolving the problems they are highlighting?
    Speedy reporting of the crime. If a person waits weeks or months to report a crime of this nature, a lot of it comes down to one person's word against another's. Having physical evidence will go a long way to securing a conviction.

    Reducing the burden of proof would be very, very dangerous. As it stands, being accused of any sexual impropriety is one of the most damaging thing that can happen to a man in our society. The conviction rate is low because you cannot convict a man of this crime if you're not sure. There are women who falsely accuse. These women should be prosecuted.

    What could be positively done? More support for victims would be number one. The RCC has had its funding massively cut; victims are often forced to travel halfway across the country in the clothes they were raped in for medical tests. Honestly, would you blame a woman for not reporting it in that scenario?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭Lisacatlover


    Why do some people commit theft?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    I think woman are equally responsible in a lot of cases. There's a dichotomy between how women are telling men to behave and what they actually enjoy. Look at the phenomenon of Fifty Shades of Grey; essentially one big rape fantasy. So either women like men to be forceful or they don't; they seem to want it both ways.

    The law should also be changed to reflect the different categories of rape. It's a very broad term as it stands. You read about cases of a girl going back to some guy's hotel room after a night out, which implies consent. Maybe what eventually transpires was wrong but it's not the same as some maniac lurking behind the bushes.

    Wow. Its actually frightening to me that someone would think this.

    You do understand that there is a difference between a rape FANTASY and rape right?

    You also understand that in 50 Shades of Grey there was explicit consent right?

    There are no different categories of rape. Its actually very simple. Either there is consent or there isnt. There may be consent at the start but he or she may withdraw consent during and say NO - at which point if things continue its rape.

    Going back to a hotel room implies that she wants to go back to a hotel room, it does not imply consent and if you think this is true you really need to educate yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    There clearly is a distinction. A woman walking home alone at night does not expect to be pounced on. A woman who goes to a hotel room has a reasonable expectation that sexual activity may occur.

    "Women should have a reasonable expectation that the man they are with will have sex with them"
    "Women should not be viewing all men as potential rapists"

    But women are the ones "wanting it both ways"???


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    ivytwine wrote: »
    What could be positively done? More support for victims would be number one. The RCC has had its funding massively cut; victims are often forced to travel halfway across the country in the clothes they were raped in for medical tests. Honestly, would you blame a woman for not reporting it in that scenario?

    There have been cuts across the whole board, so the Rape Crisis Centre isn't the only organisation to suffer. It's the price paid to make Ireland a great Country to do business in and the fastest growing economy in Europe:pac:

    You mightn't like the process but there's little point in letting the woman go home, have a shower and wash her clothes, if in doing so, she removes the genetic material that can be used as evidence.
    I don't blame men or women who react to being raped in whatever way they choose but I'd like them to know that the best procedure for 'justice' to be served, isn't to go home and make the complaint when you feel courageous enough.


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