Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 02:01PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What do you mean by not caring which positions are open in the team?

Are you arguing that we have not had openings up front, on the wing or an attacking midfield role this season that Januzaj, Pereira or Wilson could have been used in?

Or by openings do you mean massive injury problems, which would point to there not being a plan to develop CBJ, for example, and that he is simply being selected because he is next in line at left back after Shaw, Blind, Rojo, Young and Darmian - 4 of which are currently injured?

LVG has thrown young players in - but I would struggle to see how he is actually developing them - there has been no apparent plan to their use; he has simply used them when no other options were available.

No. We didn't have openings upfront because Rooney was barely injured and we had Martial playing as #9 when Rooney was injured.

For wing option we have Martial who played every game and then Mata, Lingard sharing other wing. So yes, for a wing options chances were limited.

For example, there were lot of chances for a RB and LB, suitable players were rightly promoted.

bucketybuck wrote: »

So if a manager guts his squad and then throws some youth players in from time to time, regardless of whether they have the quality or not, thats good youth development? Not to mention, Januzaj, Wilson, Powell, Varela, Peirera and McNair have 16 league appearances between them this season. Not starts, just appearances. They have really been flooded with chances haven't they?

And how can you talk about trusting Varela, where was that trust when senior player Ashley Young was repeatedly selected ahead of him at full back, before and after the Wolfsburg game? Was he really trusting Powell, or was that all just a hail mary throw? I suspect the number of Powell appearances before and after Wolfsburg might answer that...

Yes. Managers trims his squad to give chances when there is a injury issues.

Lol worthy to even mention Januzaj who was out on loan for half a season and McNair was injured for lengthy time.

You are not even trying anymore. Young players gets chances when there is a injury crisis and that's what happened. If we had bigger squad then some senior player would have played there but since our squad is smaller younger players gets chances when there are injury problems.

Smalling and Blind are fit so McNair didn't get chance.
When Young, Valencia, Darmian were injured Varela got his chances.

Not every single young player gets chances everytime. It's not a FM game. RB and LBs were injured so Varela, Love and CBJ got their chances.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is this a joke? Are we talking about 2 league appearances this season Varela?

Did it make you laugh? He made 4 appearances and then out injured. Darmian was our first choice RB and Valencia was second. Young was trusted as 3rd choice. When all were injured Varela got his chances.

Likewise Shaw, Rojo were out and CBJ got his chance.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 02:02PM

Rossi IRL wrote: »

If Rojo was fit aswell he would be ahead of CBJ. The only reason these guys are playing is because we have nobody else.

When Young and Valencia come back at right back then Darmian will go ahead of CBJ for left back.

We have nobody else because dead wood is cleared and we have smaller squad by choice which Van Gaal clarified more than once.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 02:06PM

Player "XYZ" got his chances only because all the players are injured is just laughable excuse and looks like people don't even read what manager said about the squad.

We have smaller squad by choice. Manager said he likes smaller squad so that he can give youngsters chances and that's exactly what he did when ever there is needed.

Posts like "why didn't Januzaj, Wilson, McNair didn't get their chances" are just lol worty. They didn't get chances because senior players playing in their positions were not out injured.

There isn't a team in the league which played so many players from academy in such short span of time.

UnitedIrishman · 17-02-2016 02:06PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

"Given them a chance" is a wishy washy statement, look past that to how they have actually been used. How Januzaj was feted and then discarded weeks later. How Varela was thrown in the deep end then thrown back into the weeds again. How Peirera has sat scratching all season, how Wilson never got a sniff despite our shockers up front.

Its lazy ****e to just call this being negative, any analysis of the use of our players puts the lie to this myth of him being good for their development.

He's given them game time, minutes, however you want to put it. Feted and discarded - and what did he do at Dortmund? The sum total of fúck all. My point stands, if they're good enough he'll play them. What do you want him to do, play them, they perform badly and then you complain that they aren't up to it. I'm not saying he has got his transfers right or that his reign has been good - I was responding to the claim that Moyes did more for their development. Which is BS.

Mitch Connor · 17-02-2016 02:08PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No. We didn't have openings upfront because Rooney was barely injured and we had Martial playing as #9 when Rooney was injured.

For wing option we have Martial who played every game and then Mata, Lingard sharing other wing. So yes, for a wing options chances were limited.

This is laughable.

So your argument is LVG has developed youngers by playing them when EVERY OTHER FECKING OPTION is injured.

And, when we only had a crap Rooney (and he was pretty fecking crap for the first half of the season) and Martial - there is no reason to think LVG should have looked to 'develop' a young player such as Pereira or Wilson by bringing them on as a sub for an ineffectual player?

Its honestly laughable.

Pro. F · 17-02-2016 02:10PM

TheDoc wrote: »

But I think it is somewhat indicative of what the fans want. He stats are not impressive, he has some very unflattering data in terms of dribbling and ball retention, but the fact he is quick, sharp and CAN skin a defender, means everyone will give him all the time in the world, and the benefit.

This isn't a gripe by the way. I just read some of his stats the other work that F365 shared, in a counter point to the Van Gaal myth that he doesn't like his players taking risks etc. Martial has one of the highest rates of ball losses and unsuccessful dribbles in the team, and a terribly average pass completion rate. But that is all fine, because he is one of the only players in the team that is totally unpredictable.

OK there is a bit of a gripe. As a big Memphis fan, I think that Martial is getting away with some criticism, is Memphis is to be judged equally in terms of the flak he gets. That Memphis isn't being afforded the benefit of the doubt by a lot of fans, is annoying me massively.

F365 have mislead you. Martial's stats are very impressive.

Maximus Alexander · 17-02-2016 02:13PM

More and more, I think I really would like to get Pochettino.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 02:14PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

This is laughable.

So your argument is LVG has developed youngers by playing them when EVERY OTHER FECKING OPTION is injured.

And, when we only had a crap Rooney (and he was pretty fecking crap for the first half of the season) and Martial - there is no reason to think LVG should have looked to 'develop' a young player such as Pereira or Wilson by bringing them on as a sub for an ineffectual player?

Its honestly laughable.

No. What's laughable is you moaning about everything and your conspiracy theories.

You don't play young player for the sake of it. They are given chances as a back up and they were played as back ups. That's a part of nurturing them. You moan when youngsters are thrown in the deep end and you moan whey they are introduced step by step.

Young players are given chances when their is a position opened for them unless they are very very highly talented like Messi, Ronaldo.

Even Butt today explained how they were played because they were lucky with foreign rule. Likewise young players need to wait for their chances. Just because some young player did well in your FM game doesn't mean manager is wrong for not playing him in real life.

Just because he didn't play Wilson (btw I should tell, you have no idea how he was in training) doesn't mean Van Gaal putting trust in young players is a myth. He has proved that many times by playing younger players in crucial games.

bucketybuck · 17-02-2016 02:14PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

I was responding to the claim that Moyes did more for their development. Which is BS.

And I'm responding to the claim that Van Gaal has been good for their development, a claim that once again, does not stand up to the barest scrutiny.

If people want to blindly spout "he gave them chances" and consider that to be good youth development then there is little to be said. We don't need new sticks to beat Van Gaal with, his performances alone have damned him so there is no ulterior motive in pointing out the simple fact that throwing kids in here and there when stuck for players isn't worthy of much praise in my book. Especially when you go through our youth players one by one and realise that hey, they have actually been ****ed around quite a bit.

Liam McPoyle · 17-02-2016 02:30PM

Memphis is an excellent player, last season shows that however he needs a massive toe in the hole, I wouldn't judge him in that harshly as he has been playing in a broken team.

Martial is one of the most exciting young players in world football and I believe if he continues to develop and plays in a better organized team he will be a superstar.

DDG is easily in the top 3, perhaps even top two keepers in the world, he just needs to bulk up his aura.

Shaw is one of the most exciting young defenders in world football. He has been blighted by injuries for us to date but if he can stay fit he will be our first choice LB for years to come.

Schneirderlen hasn't had the best start to his united career but there is a very solid player in there.

Darmian has had a mostly very solid first year with us.

Herrera is a lovely footballer who would thrive under a different manager.

Mike Schmalling is having a standout (in the main) season.

Daley is a useful utility player to have.

Then you have up and comers like CBJ and Jessie. I've been more impressed with CBJ and Jessie can be maddening but has the potential to be very good for us.

Average age of the above is 23.5.

I'd argue that the first 8 names could be a part of our starting 11.

We need a centre half, a winger or attacking MF and a striker.

Without injuries we actually have a very good squad (IMO) which makes LVGs inability to get them working all the more frustrating.

Jose in along with a couple of first team players and we would be as good as anything the PL has to offer.

Mitch Connor · 17-02-2016 02:32PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Young players are given chances when their is a position opened for them unless they are very very highly talented like Messi, Ronaldo.

Utter BS. Football is littered with young players other than Ronaldo and Messi (or their ilk) being given chances off the bench, in games that are considered easy, or in the cup. To try argue young players are only given chances when ever option possible is injured is just plain wrong. Look at the Barca side that played valencia last time out - a load of young players, and not because Suarez, Neymar and Messi were all injured.

United's forward options at the start of September were Martial, Rooney and Wilson. Wilson barely got his fecking boots dirty for the first team despite being the ONLY striker that could be brought on to rest Martial or sub for Rooney (who was quite consistently rubbish).

But sure, playing CBJ because Shaw, Darmian, Blind, Rojo and Young were all unavailable to play there shows 'faith' and proves 'development'. Playing Varela because Valencia, Darmian, Jones and Smalling were unavailable to play right back proves 'faith' and shows development.

Screw giving young players a chance ahead of under performing senior players, or tired senior players or in easier fixtures - as long as those senior players are physically capable of playing then no young footballer who isn't on the level of Ronaldo or Messi is ever going to be started or brought on as a sub. laughable to think it, eh? Unbelievable.

bangkok · 17-02-2016 02:33PM

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

What's the summary of Martial so far? I haven't been getting to see full games a lot this season. Is he our only shining light? I've heard he's inconsistent but what I've seen he looks lively.

The summary is, he has been the best thing to happen to us this season and the most exciting player we have had at the club since Ronaldo.

For a 19 year old player to come to a new country, with no English and a young family and already play 31 games and score 10 goals from a wide position including a brilliant debut goal v Liverpool he has been nothing short of sensational.

Won the Golden Boy award this season

"Tony Martial came from France,
The English press said he had no chance,
£50m down the drain,
Tony Martial scores again,
NA NA NA NA NA NA NA!"

beno619 · 17-02-2016 02:43PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No. What's laughable is you moaning about everything and your conspiracy theories.

You don't play young player for the sake of it. They are given chances as a back up and they were played as back ups. That's a part of nurturing them. You moan when youngsters are thrown in the deep end and you moan whey they are introduced step by step.

I disagree, look how Fergie integrated the likes of Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley.

1 season on loan.
2 season,League Cup + FA Cup + Odd start in the premier league with lots of sub appearances.

There has been no development plan, they have been thrown in because theres nobody else.

Rossi IRL · 17-02-2016 03:01PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

we have smaller squad by choice which Van Gaal clarified more than once.

He also tried to sign a right back and a left back (Debuchy & Nagatomo who are bang average at best) on loan in January.

More proof that he cares jack **** about developing youth players.

MisterAnarchy · 17-02-2016 03:01PM

Good article by Daniel Harris on Van Gaal and Utds plight here if anyone is interested

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football/premier-league/2015-2016/louis-van-gaal-from-orgasmic-serial-killer-to-consummate-cluelessness_sto5181131/story.shtml

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:07PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Utter BS. Football is littered with young players other than Ronaldo and Messi (or their ilk) being given chances off the bench, in games that are considered easy, or in the cup. To try argue young players are only given chances when ever option possible is injured is just plain wrong. Look at the Barca side that played valencia last time out - a load of young players, and not because Suarez, Neymar and Messi were all injured.

United's forward options at the start of September were Martial, Rooney and Wilson. Wilson barely got his fecking boots dirty for the first team despite being the ONLY striker that could be brought on to rest Martial or sub for Rooney (who was quite consistently rubbish).

But sure, playing CBJ because Shaw, Darmian, Blind, Rojo and Young were all unavailable to play there shows 'faith' and proves 'development'. Playing Varela because Valencia, Darmian, Jones and Smalling were unavailable to play right back proves 'faith' and shows development.

Screw giving young players a chance ahead of under performing senior players, or tired senior players or in easier fixtures - as long as those senior players are physically capable of playing then no young footballer who isn't on the level of Ronaldo or Messi is ever going to be started or brought on as a sub. laughable to think it, eh? Unbelievable.

Eh? Lets see how Van Gaal has used young players this season. I'm not even counting players like Shaw, Martial and Depay. Only youngish players who are still finding their feet at top level.

Vs Spurs - NA
Vs Villa - Januzaj started
Vs Club Brugge - Januzaj started
Vs Newcaslte - Januzaj started
Vs Club Brugge - Januzaj started
Vs Swansea - NA
Vs Liverpool - NA
Vs PSV - NA
Vs Southampton - McNair off the bench,
Vs Ipswich - Pereira started.
Vs Sunderland - NA
Vs Wolfsburg - Pereira off the bench
Vs Arsenal - Wilson off the bench
Vs Everton - Lingard off the bench
Vs CSKA - Lingard started
Vs City - Lingard off the bench
Vs Boro - Pereira, Lingard, Wilson started.
Vs Palace - Lingard off the bench
Vs CSKA - Lingard started
Vs WBA - Lingard started, CBJ off the bench
Vs Watford - Lingard started, Pereira, McNair off the bench
Vs PSV - Lingard started
Vs Leicester - McNair started
Vs West Ham - Lingard, McNair started, Varela off the bench
Vs Wolfsburg - Varela, Lingard started, CBJ, Powell off the bench
Vs Bournemouth - Varela, CBJ, Lingard, McNair started, Powell, Pereira off the bench
Vs Norwich - NA
Vs Stoke - Pereira off the bench
Vs Chelsea - CBJ off the bench
Vs Swansea - McNair off the bench
Vs Sheffield Utd - CBJ started, Lingard and Pereira off the bench
Vs Newcastle - Lingard started
Vs Liverpool - Lingard started, CBJ off the bench
Vs Southampton - CBJ, Lingard started, McNair, Januzaj off the bench
Vs Derby - Varela, CBJ, Lingard started
Vs Stoke - CBJ, Lingard started, Pereira off the bench
Vs Chelsea - CBJ, Lingard started
Vs Sunderland - Lingard, CBJ started, Love, Keane off the bench

So he is either starting young players or brining on young players in almost all games. So there is it, something that satisfy your requirement.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:11PM

beno619 wrote: »

I disagree, look how Fergie integrated the likes of Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley.

1 season on loan.
2 season,League Cup + FA Cup + Odd start in the premier league with lots of sub appearances.

There has been no development plan, they have been thrown in because theres nobody else.

By your defn, they played because we didn't have CM apart from Carrick and Rio and Vidic were injured a lot.

Welbeck was played out of position once RVP was signed.

Also it's easy to integrate younger players when you are winning lot of cups. Van Gaal's position is completely different. He is here for short term and his team is not well oiled machine like Fergie's was.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:12PM

Rossi IRL wrote: »

He also tried to sign a right back and a left back (Debuchy & Nagatomo who are bang average at best) on loan in January.

More proof that he cares jack **** about developing youth players.

He cares jack**** about developing youth players but somehow he either started or brought young players off the bench in almost every game.

Even more commendable when you consider what a **** job he is doing resultwise.

TheDoc · 17-02-2016 03:14PM

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Good article by Daniel Harris on Van Gaal and Utds plight here if anyone is interested

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football/premier-league/2015-2016/louis-van-gaal-from-orgasmic-serial-killer-to-consummate-cluelessness_sto5181131/story.shtml

One of the best pieces I've read this year.

One thing I have taken from Van Gaal in his time, is that he is not the manager I expected, in terms of the way he goes about his business. I thought he was a lot more charismatic when seeing him in previous years, or even videos of his Ajax and Barca days. I don't buy into the fan pandering managers who are all arms and waving, tactically organising their team for a ****ing throw in.

But I would have expected to see him on the sideline a few times roaring at someone, or an extravagant celebration here and there. What that article premises in the first few paragraphs, have we ever seen the real, genuine Louis Van Gaal at United?

beno619 · 17-02-2016 03:15PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Eh? Lets see how Van Gaal has used young players this season. I'm not even counting players like Shaw, Martial and Depay. Only youngish players who are still finding their feet at top level.

So he is either starting young players or brining on young players in almost all games. So there is it, something that satisfy your requirement.

Your completely missing the point im just not sure if its intentional or not.

bangkok · 17-02-2016 03:15PM

van gaal will be in the Algarve next summer topping up on the sun tan with the wife, I doubt he gives a toss if Verela or Will Keane or whoever go onto be man utd first team regulars and if Jose comes in next summer they wont be

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:17PM

beno619 wrote: »

Your completely missing the point im just not sure if its intentional or not.

The initial point that Van Gaal trusts young player? Yeah I'm missing it by a mile when you have young players playing in almost all games.

How difficult is it to play senior player out of position rather than trusting younger players like CBJ? Just move Carrick to CB position and Blind to LB.

Mitch Connor · 17-02-2016 03:20PM

I would say Lingard is the only young player he has actually developed in his time at United.

His 'development' of Januzaj is baffling - bigged him up all summer, started him in the opening games then dumps him out of the club on loan. Such a mixed message.

All the defenders minutes are down to injuries to senior players rather than him trusting the young player to perform satisfactorily over a rested senior player. I think McNair got a few such opportunites last season but woefully inconsistent (or just poor) performances have seen him drop out of the picture (correctly imo, he's nowhere near good enough). Pereira was given a couple of opportunities here or there but not at a consistent enough rate for decent player development. Same with Wilson.

Lingard you can def give Van Gaal props for though - was given a chance the first summer, started the first game, came back in after loan/injury and has been a consistent selection this season.

beno619 · 17-02-2016 03:21PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

The initial point that Van Gaal trusts young player? Yeah I'm missing it by a mile when you have young players playing in almost all games.

How difficult is it to play senior player out of position rather than trusting younger players like CBJ? Just move Carrick to CB position and Blind to LB.

The point most people are debating is whether he has developed our young players. Most of the evidence would suggest no.

Your point is that he trusts young players. I disagree and have already highlighted the reasons why.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:24PM

beno619 wrote: »

The point most people are debating is whether he has developed our young players. Most of the evidence would suggest no.

Your point is that he trusts young players. I disagree and have already highlighted the reasons why.

What you mean by developing young players? Like I said all he can do is give the platform for them to shine which he did. It's upto players to make full use of it.

I disagree with your point for the simple reason that our squad is trimmed intentionally and that's how Van Gaal likes his squad. He said it numerous times and he even said he like to have smaller squad so that he can give chances to Younger players which he did.

So the excuse "He only gave chance because no player was available" is not valid at least with Van Gaal.

Mitch Connor · 17-02-2016 03:31PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

What you mean by developing young players? Like I said all he can do is give the platform for them to shine which he did. It's upto players to make full use of it.

I disagree with your point for the simple reason that our squad is trimmed intentionally and that's how Van Gaal likes his squad. He said it numerous times and he even said he like to have smaller squad so that he can give chances to Younger players which he did.

So the excuse "He only gave chance because no player was available" is not valid at least with Van Gaal.

There were at least 4 or 5 options ahead of CBJ for the LB spot at the start of the season - having those options, and turning to CBJ when NONE of them are available doesn't show he built such a squad with the knowledge he could trust CBJ if near half a dozen options were unavailable. It is far more likely he didn't even consider such an eventuality and CBJ has played because the other option at LB instead of him is Joe Riley. CBJ has played (and played well) because half a dozen other options couldn't be played at left back. There is nothing to suggest that if more options at LB had been available that the kid would have been trusted.

There is nothing to suggest LVG looked at the squad in July and thought "CBJ is gonna play a good part this season".

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:34PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

There were at least 4 or 5 options ahead of CBJ for the LB spot at the start of the season - having those options, and turning to CBJ when NONE of them are available doesn't show he built such a squad with the knowledge he could trust CBJ if near half a dozen options were unavailable. It is far more likely he didn't even consider such an eventuality and CBJ has played because the other option at LB instead of him is Joe Riley. CBJ has played (and played well) because half a dozen other options couldn't be played at left back. There is nothing to suggest that if more options at LB had been available that the kid would have been trusted.

There is nothing to suggest LVG looked at the squad in July and thought "CBJ is gonna play a good part this season".

Or he could have gone for safe option of playing Carrick/Schneiderlin as CB with Blind as LB.

IIRC CBJ played even when Young was not injured. It was when Shaw and Rojo were injured he played.

Edit: Just checked and I'm correct. CBJ played even when Young was not injured. So your point about CBJ getting chances only when 5 or 6 players were injured was completely wrong. It was Shaw and Rojo. He came on for Rojo when he made his debut and came on against Wolfsburg when Young was on bench.

beno619 · 17-02-2016 03:38PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

What you mean by developing young players? Like I said all he can do is give the platform for them to shine which he did. It's upto players to make full use of it.

I disagree with your point for the simple reason that our squad is trimmed intentionally and that's how Van Gaal likes his squad. He said it numerous times and he even said he like to have smaller squad so that he can give chances to Younger players which he did.

So the excuse "He only gave chance because no player was available" is not valid at least with Van Gaal.

He hasnt provided a platform at all.

A few sporadic appearances wouldn't be a platform for a young player or an established one for that matter.

We fundamentally disagree on a few concepts here so I wont clog the thread any more but your idea of a platform, trust and development are very different to mine.

Giggsy11 · 17-02-2016 03:38PM

https://twitter.com/DuckerTheTimes/status/699980869482778624

user2011 · 17-02-2016 03:39PM

CBJ has gotten continuous run in the team because of Young's injury. Before that it was Young RB Darmien LB (I know he can play there IMO not to same level as RB) it should of been CBJ and Darmien with young pushed forward

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

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