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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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  • #572
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    former total wrote: »
    Ummm... you may want to check your own recollection...

    Yeah Maggs definitely wasn't our 12, got that mixed up!

    Although he did actually start at 12 that year. I didn't remember that though just got it mixed up with the previous year.


  • #573
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm amazed at how upset the prospect of Henshaw playing 12 is getting some people, the guy has a load of successful international caps there yet is "wasted". As Buer said the other day, if it wasn't for growing competition at 12, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

    Who's upset? All I said was "it's a pity" his talent will be wasted by being played out of position. IMO he would be better utilised, and would offer more, at 13. Yes, he can play successfully at 12, that does not mean that a) 12 is his best position, so we are getting the most of his talent i.e. not wasting any or b) that he is the best option at 12. That sparked off a bit of debate, which is what the board is about. You seem to be the only one getting upset about it.

    The thing is, we do have growing competition at 12, so it's a valid discussion. If we had no options at 12 then Henshaw is the obvious candidate.

    Perhaps I should have phrased it differently to avoid upsetting some people. Maybe it's a pity that Leinster haven't developed a decent 12, so Henshaw will have to be played there, which is not the best use of his talent. Would that be ok?


  • #574
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Zzippy, you seem upset. Wanna talk about it?

    :D


  • #575
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Who's upset? All I said was "it's a pity" his talent will be wasted by being played out of position. IMO he would be better utilised, and would offer more, at 13. Yes, he can play successfully at 12, that does not mean that a) 12 is his best position, so we are getting the most of his talent i.e. not wasting any or b) that he is the best option at 12. That sparked off a bit of debate, which is what the board is about. You seem to be the only one getting upset about it.

    The thing is, we do have growing competition at 12, so it's a valid discussion. If we had no options at 12 then Henshaw is the obvious candidate.

    Perhaps I should have phrased it differently to avoid upsetting some people. Maybe it's a pity that Leinster haven't developed a decent 12, so Henshaw will have to be played there, which is not the best use of his talent. Would that be ok?

    Why would we be unable to get the most out of his talent if he is starting at 12? What specifically prevents that?


  • #576
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Why would we be unable to get the most out of his talent if he is starting at 12? What specifically prevents that?

    The same thing that has prevented Ireland getting the best of his talent for the entire time he's been played at 12. A lack of space and time on the ball.


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  • #577
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Henshaw will play at 12 for Leinster because that's where he's needed at Leinster, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him move out one for Ireland at some point. It depends how well McCloskey gets on, and how much Payne is valued as a defensive organiser at 13 over Henshaw. Payne is much older though so in a few years he'll be out of the picture and you'll be looking at one of McCloskey/Henshaw, Henshaw/Ringrose, McCloskey/Ringrose, Henshaw/Marshall, Olding/Henshaw or one of a million other combinations tbh. As posters here said(when referring to Leinster) it's about your best use of resources.

    If you're talking about where he's played his best provincial rugby though I don't think there's any doubt it's been at 13 and 15, those are the positions he's played all the way up through age grade into the seniors. They're where he's thrived.


  • #578
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Going back to D'Arcy (god I miss him) - it looked for all the world back in 2004 that his best position was 13.

    And then he spent the next decade playing 12, and made a decent fist of it.

    This doesn't need to be resolved today. We'll find out where Henshaw's best position is sometime in the next 12 months. We'll also find out if McCloskey is any good, where Olding should be playing, whether the Ringrose hype is justified. Aki becomes IQ in November 2017.

    Exciting times, no need to be stressing.


  • #579
    sfbdqc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭sfbdqc


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Henshaw will play at 12 for Leinster because that's where he's needed at Leinster, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him move out one for Ireland at some point. It depends how well McCloskey gets on, and how much Payne is valued as a defensive organiser at 13 over Henshaw. Payne is much older though so in a few years he'll be out of the picture and you'll be looking at one of McCloskey/Henshaw, Henshaw/Ringrose, McCloskey/Ringrose, Henshaw/Marshall, Olding/Henshaw or one of a million other combinations tbh. As posters here said(when referring to Leinster) it's about your best use of resources.

    If you're talking about where he's played his best provincial rugby though I don't think there's any doubt it's been at 13 and 15, those are the positions he's played all the way up through age grade into the seniors. They're where he's thrived.

    How many times has he played 12 for Connacht?


  • #580
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    awec wrote: »
    The same thing that has prevented Ireland getting the best of his talent for the entire time he's been played at 12. A lack of space and time on the ball.

    Both centre positions get a lack of space and time on the ball at international level, he will get far more time and space at pro12 and even european level regardless of which centre position he plays, but I see no reason why he and Ringrose cant switch inside and out in attack throughout the game, he already appears in the 13 channel for Ireland on occasion and I dont see why he cant do the same for Leinster. In defence hes actually better utilised in 12 than 13 if anything


  • #581
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    The same thing that has prevented Ireland getting the best of his talent for the entire time he's been played at 12. A lack of space and time on the ball.

    Even if that was true, why not just move him wider and give him more space?

    The 12 isn't attached to the 10 with a piece of string. And your midfield don't line up in perfect order on every phase. It's not remotely difficult to move your 12 outside.


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  • #582
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    sfbdqc wrote: »
    How many times has he played 12 for Connacht?

    He's started at 12 once that I can think of off the top of my head. He has moved in a few times to accommodate substitutions.


  • #583
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Even if that was true, why not just move him wider and give him more space?

    The 12 isn't attached to the 10 with a piece of string. And your midfield don't line up in perfect order on every phase. It's not remotely difficult to move your 12 outside.

    So why have Ireland completely failed in this regard if it's that easy? Joe Schmidt hasn't succeeded in turning him into an attacking force at 12, you think Leo Cullen will succeed where Schmidt has failed?


  • #584
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    awec wrote: »
    So why have Ireland completely failed in this regard if it's that easy? Joe Schmidt hasn't succeeded in turning him into an attacking force at 12, you think Leo Cullen will succeed where Schmidt has failed?

    Cullen will have players day to day. Far more scope to develop his ability to find space to be more of an attacking force especially at pro12/ERCC level.


  • #585
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    awec wrote: »
    So why have Ireland completely failed in this regard if it's that easy? Joe Schmidt hasn't succeeded in turning him into an attacking force at 12, you think Leo Cullen will succeed where Schmidt has failed?

    Joe has succeeded in getting Henshaw to play very well in the style of play that he has set out for the team. That you don't like the style of play (I don't either) does not mean Joe has failed or that Henshaw has been a failure.

    Putting McCloskey in there won't be any different.


  • #586
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Even if that was true, why not just move him wider and give him more space?

    The 12 isn't attached to the 10 with a piece of string. And your midfield don't line up in perfect order on every phase. It's not remotely difficult to move your 12 outside.

    When people refer to the space you get at 13 or whatever position they're talking about the space you get due to being a receiver further down the line than the 12 typically is. Yeah, your 12 and 13 could just shuffle themselves in the line up to accommodate that, but if your 13 is gonna spend all his time in the 12 channel and vice versa what's the point?


  • #587
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    So why have Ireland completely failed in this regard if it's that easy? Joe Schmidt hasn't succeeded in turning him into an attacking force at 12, you think Leo Cullen will succeed where Schmidt has failed?

    Ireland haven't completely failed in moving him outside.

    He's done exactly that plenty of times for Ireland. Maybe you need to watch more closely.

    Is he an attacking force? Certainly not to the extent he's shone for Connacht. Maybe its possible that international rugby is a higher standard than the Pro 12 or Challenge Cup.


  • #588
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Henshaw playing 13 (for Ireland) is almost a mythical beast at this stage. What are people really expecting to happen if he does play there? Hes playing very well at 12 and I dont see there being much if any change in his performance if he gets moved out to 13, both centre positions get precious little time on the ball at international level these days


  • #589
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Ireland haven't completely failed in moving him outside.

    He's done exactly that plenty of times for Ireland. Maybe you need to watch more closely.

    Is he an attacking force? Certainly not to the extent he's shone for Connacht. Maybe its possible that international rugby is a higher standard than the Pro 12 or Challenge Cup.

    That's a fair point. But he shines far more for Connacht in the wider channels when he's third receiver, when he moves inside he doesn't tend to do as well. Have been watching him for 4 years now and after the first season when he mostly played 15, it's very obvious that he's an excellent 13 who can play 12. It's not a stretch, or unacceptable, to form the opinion that his talent is not being utilised fully at 12.


  • #590
    sfbdqc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭sfbdqc


    He barely plays 12 below international level, to say he can't be successful there at leinster is odd..


  • #591
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    former total wrote: »
    Joe has succeeded in getting Henshaw to play very well in the style of play that he has set out for the team. That you don't like the style of play (I don't either) does not mean Joe has failed or that Henshaw has been a failure.

    Putting McCloskey in there won't be any different.

    Right, but I said he fails in attack. The performances back this up.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Ireland haven't completely failed in moving him outside.

    He's done exactly that plenty of times for Ireland. Maybe you need to watch more closely.

    Is he an attacking force? Certainly not to the extent he's shone for Connacht. Maybe its possible that international rugby is a higher standard than the Pro 12 or Challenge Cup.

    Yes they have. Our centre partnership is inept at attacking. Henshaw plays 12 for Ireland, just because he lines out at 13 the odd time in some moves does not mean he is playing 13. Just like when a winger or a prop stand at first receiver, this does not mean they are a 10.

    And maybe he's an attacking force for Connacht cause they play him in a position that suits his strengths? Radical thinking I know.
    Tox56 wrote: »
    Henshaw playing 13 (for Ireland) is almost a mythical beast at this stage. What are people really expecting to happen if he does play there? Hes playing very well at 12 and I dont see there being much if any change in his performance if he gets moved out to 13, both centre positions get precious little time on the ball at international level these days

    Yea this is mythical. Ireland struggle to do anything in the centre so all of a sudden this is an epidemic across World Rugby. Is there another centre partnership in tier 1 rugby that is as bad as Ireland's when it comes to attacking with the ball? I am not convinced there is.

    There IS more space at 13.


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  • #592
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    sfbdqc wrote: »
    He barely plays 12 below international level, to say he can't be successful there at leinster is odd..

    He has never played 9 either. Or 1, or 2, or 3. In fact he hasn't played loads of positions.

    Maybe Henshaw could play in the second row for Ireland?

    Or maybe has hasn't played in these positions cause they aren't positions that utilised his strengths?


  • #593
    Bazzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    sfbdqc wrote: »
    He barely plays 12 below international level, to say he can't be successful there at leinster is odd..

    I'm pretty sure absolutely nobody has said that though? :confused:


  • #594
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Who's upset? All I said was "it's a pity" his talent will be wasted by being played out of position. IMO he would be better utilised, and would offer more, at 13. Yes, he can play successfully at 12, that does not mean that a) 12 is his best position, so we are getting the most of his talent i.e. not wasting any or b) that he is the best option at 12. That sparked off a bit of debate, which is what the board is about. You seem to be the only one getting upset about it.

    The thing is, we do have growing competition at 12, so it's a valid discussion. If we had no options at 12 then Henshaw is the obvious candidate.

    Perhaps I should have phrased it differently to avoid upsetting some people. Maybe it's a pity that Leinster haven't developed a decent 12, so Henshaw will have to be played there, which is not the best use of his talent. Would that be ok?

    Ah come on now Zippy, since this has been reported, Everytime it's said he is coming here to play 12, a bunch of people are jumping in with "he's not nailed on there, he's not a 12 never has been" which all run contrary to the current reality of things, so clearly it's touching a nerve with some of our more sensitive posters.

    Either way, I'll just wait until there is some kind of confirmation before getting into it further, he may still end up moving to Toulouse to improve his bragging rights on boards!


  • #595
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ah come on now Zippy, since this has been reported, Everytime it's said he is coming here to play 12, a bunch of people are jumping in with "he's not nailed on there, he's not a 12 never has been" which all run contrary to the current reality of things, so clearly it's touching a nerve with some of our more sensitive posters.

    Either way, I'll just wait until there is some kind of confirmation before getting into it further, he may still end up moving to Toulouse to improve his bragging rights on boards!

    The only thing people have taken issue with is the notion that he's nailed on at 12 for Ireland for the future. That's clearly not true, there is literally nothing to suggest this is the case.

    Leinster can play him at 12 all they want, it is a shame to waste him like that but that's Leinster's choice. I hope though that this means he's playing a different position for province and country.


  • #596
    rsh118
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 697 ✭✭✭rsh118


    Henshaw is a good 12 with bags of potential. McCloskey is an excellent 12 with bags of potential.

    Henshaw is a very good 13. Let's put them into their positions. Henshaw has learned lots from Payne!


  • #597
    stephen_n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    awec wrote: »
    Right, but I said he fails in attack. The performances back this up.

    If McCloskey gets picked there and fails to do anything different, what will your opinion be then? that he failed as an attacking threat?


  • #598
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    The only thing people have taken issue with is the notion that he's nailed on at 12 for Ireland for the future. That's clearly not true, there is literally nothing to suggest this is the case.

    Leinster can play him at 12 all they want, it is a shame to waste him like that but that's Leinster's choice. I hope though that this means he's playing a different position for province and country.

    Sure by that reasoning Jamie Roberts and Fofanna are also wasted?

    Henshaw has pace and a bit of a step but is also very strong in contact and eeks space out of nowhere. He has all the tools for a top class 12 but clearly can play elsewhere.

    He's not wasted anywhere, and if he feels his best position is 12 I'd back him to be right.


  • #599
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    The only thing people have taken issue with is the notion that he's nailed on at 12 for Ireland for the future. That's clearly not true, there is literally nothing to suggest this is the case.

    Theres nothing to suggest it?

    Would the fact he's been playing there consistently for Ireland for a whilw now not be a bit of a suggestion?


  • #600
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    rsh118 wrote: »
    Henshaw is a good 12 with bags of potential. McCloskey is an excellent 12 with bags of potential.

    Henshaw is a very good 13. Let's put them into their positions. Henshaw has learned lots from Payne!

    Well, see this is the problem underpinning the whole discussion.

    People are comparing McCloskey's performances in the Pro12 with Henshaw's performances at international level, and coming to the conclusion that McCloskey is the better 12. That's bananas.

    Likewise, you can't say that because Henshaw is much better at 13 on the basis of his showings there with Connacht, because it's a quantum leap downwards in quality and intensity compared to international level.


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  • #601
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Theres nothing to suggest it?

    Would the fact he's been playing there consistently for Ireland for a whilw now not be a bit of a suggestion?

    I've missed all those games where Henshaw and Payne have been tearing it up.

    Just because he has played there to date is no indication that this is where his future is. The centre options at Ireland are growing on a yearly basis, the odds of Henshaw shifting out one position must be very decent.


This discussion has been closed.
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