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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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Comments

  • #542
    sfbdqc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭sfbdqc


    If Henshaw signs with Leinster, it will solve the problem at 12. Which has been a problem position.


  • #543
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    sfbdqc wrote: »
    If Henshaw signs with Leinster, it will solve the problem at 12. Which has been a problem position.

    Which is a pity, because he's wasted there. Yes, he can play there very well, but he's a far better 13 and 15, and it's not making the most of his talent.


  • #544
    sfbdqc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭sfbdqc


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Which is a pity, because he's wasted there. Yes, he can play there very well, but he's a far better 13 and 15, and it's not making the most of his talent.

    I am very confident he can be an excellent 12 if he plays there regularly.. something he doesn't do.

    To say he is wasted there...


  • #545
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    sfbdqc wrote: »
    I am very confident he can be an excellent 12 if he plays there regularly.. something he doesn't do.

    To say he is wasted there...

    It's not unreasonable to say a team is not utilising a player's talent to the full by playing him out of position just because they have a problem in that position. Henshaw is primarily a 13, he is also an excellent fullback. He thrives better with a bit more space. Using him as a 12 where he has less space to show his skills is not the best use of that resource. It's only 2 years since he was touted as BOD's successor for Ireland - the only reason he was played at 12 is because of D'Arcy's departure and Payne emerging as a viable option at 13 - we literally had no one else to fill that position. Yes, he can be an excellent 12 but that's not incompatible with saying his talent is wasted there.


  • #546
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I think it really is incompatible. He'd be wasted if he was on the wing. Or at flanker. It's not a waste when you're putting him in a position where he has clearly excelled at the very top level. I mean, how can it be a waste if he plays well and benefits his team? He may perform better in another position but it's not a waste if he's playing really well there.

    A pretty decent equivalent is saying that it was a waste putting D'Arcy to 12 (a position he actually didn't have any experience in) to accommodate others. But it wasn't a waste. It was the best use of resources and allowed Leinster and Ireland get their two best centres onto the field at the same time which ultimately was of benefit to all parties.

    A waste would be putting him at 13, dropping a highly promising player in Ringrose and being forced to play someone like Reid at 12 which would, in turn, impact on Henshaw at 13. You can't simply look at everything in isolation.


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  • #547
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Two points:
    1. You're talking about a guy who is still only 22. He's still developing and who knows what his best position will be? Noel Reid is a very good 12 (with some obvious weaknesses) but was always a 10. D'Arcy had the 12 jersey for ages but started life as a 15, then moved to the wing, then turned out to be rather good at 12. Shane Horgan was always a 12, but turned into a much better winger. So who knows?

    2. The more important question is, where does he fit best for the team? For Ireland, it's definitely 12 and for Leinster it will be the same, if Ringrose continues to develop. A centre partnership of Henshaw/Ringrose looks better than Reid/Henshaw I have to say.


  • #548
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Buer wrote: »
    I think it really is incompatible. He'd be wasted if he was on the wing. Or at flanker. It's not a waste when you're putting him in a position where he has clearly excelled at the very top level. I mean, how can it be a waste if he plays well and benefits his team? He may perform better in another position but it's not a waste if he's playing really well there.

    A pretty decent equivalent is saying that it was a waste putting D'Arcy to 12 (a position he actually didn't have any experience in) to accommodate others. But it wasn't a waste. It was the best use of resources and allowed Leinster and Ireland get their two best centres onto the field at the same time which ultimately was of benefit to all parties.

    A waste would be putting him at 13, dropping a highly promising player in Ringrose and being forced to play someone like Reid at 12 which would, in turn, impact on Henshaw at 13. You can't simply look at everything in isolation.

    It is not as if this sort of thing is without precedent (being forced to move players to other positions even if it weakens your team).


  • #549
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    There's also no reason why a good coach and good half backs should be unable to get the most out of Henshaw at 12 by moving him outside on deeper phases. Sometimes it's almost like people think that the number written on someone's back is legally binding.


  • #550
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    former total wrote: »
    Two points:
    1. You're talking about a guy who is still only 22. He's still developing and who knows what his best position will be? Noel Reid is a very good 12 (with some obvious weaknesses) but was always a 10. D'Arcy had the 12 jersey for ages but started life as a 15, then moved to the wing, then turned out to be rather good at 12. Shane Horgan was always a 12, but turned into a much better winger. So who knows?

    2. The more important question is, where does he fit best for the team? For Ireland, it's definitely 12 and for Leinster it will be the same, if Ringrose continues to develop. A centre partnership of Henshaw/Ringrose looks better than Reid/Henshaw I have to say.

    There is absolutely nothing definite about this.

    Henshaw/Ringrose may work really well for Leintser but again, what works well for a province is completely irrelevant as other examples have shown.


  • #551
    Hype710
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Hype710


    Unless there's a big budget to work with I'd probably keep Triggs. He's done well especially when you compare to some of the recent failures in the position. He's a tight head lock too if I'm not mistaken so would compliment the likes of Molony and Ryan well.


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  • #552
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    former total wrote: »
    2. The more important question is, where does he fit best for the team? For Ireland, it's definitely 12 and for Leinster it will be the same, if Ringrose continues to develop. A centre partnership of Henshaw/Ringrose looks better than Reid/Henshaw I have to say.

    Undoubtedly true. You can't just look at resources in isolation.

    It's like the old discussion about Nacewa being a better 15 than Kearney. Even if he is, it's far more beneficial to have Nacewa on the wing and Kearney at 15 than vice versa or Nacewa at 15 and someone like McFadden on the wing.

    It's about the best utilisation of resources to benefit the bigger picture.


  • #553
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    It is not as if this sort of thing is without precedent (being forced to move players to other positions even if it weakens your team).

    Obviously talking about Payne but that's probably irrelevant given that Ireland and Leinster are probably both going to want Henshaw at 12.

    The Ulster/Ireland situation doesn't correlate to the Henshaw one being discussed. One has a player in one position for his province, moving to another with the team to match what he's doing at international level. The other will have a player playing the same position for both as desired by both province and country.


  • #554
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,031 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Leo: You're on the bench.......for Ireland :confused:
    Ferg: :confused:

    FMcF: they're short of locks and wingers. One of us has to go.
    LC: well I have a load of Better Call Saul's to watch so...


  • #555
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Buer wrote: »
    Obviously talking about Payne but that's probably irrelevant given that Ireland and Leinster are probably both going to want Henshaw at 12.

    Again, I don't think Henshaw is a nailed on long term 12 for Ireland. We've seen nothing to date that suggests this is definitely where his future lies.

    What happens if we discover (shockingly, I know) that he's actually a brilliant 13 and Ireland perform better with him there?


  • #556
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Hype710 wrote: »
    Unless there's a big budget to work with I'd probably keep Triggs. He's done well especially when you compare to some of the recent failures in the position. He's a tight head lock too if I'm not mistaken so would compliment the likes of Molony and Ryan well.

    I'd be reluctant. He has looked off the pace at times, for example against the Dragons when he was poor and fell off a simple tackle for their try.

    Going on his comments this morning in the media, I don't think he's too enthusiastic about rugby here anyway and looks like he's already thinking about home.


  • #557
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It's amazing. The move isn't confirmed, the position he will play is unknown and yet the first shots in the great 2017 Henshaw v McCloskey debate have well and truly been fired.

    I'm amazed at how upset the prospect of Henshaw playing 12 is getting some people, the guy has a load of successful international caps there yet is "wasted". As Buer said the other day, if it wasn't for growing competition at 12, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

    My opinion on it is simple, if Henshaw is coming to Leinster to play 12, then 12 is where he wants to play, and Leinster is where he wants to play it, because he certainly had plenty of other options.


  • #558
    irishgrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    awec wrote: »
    Again, I don't think Henshaw is a nailed on long term 12 for Ireland. We've seen nothing to date that suggests this is definitely where his future lies.

    What happens if we discover (shockingly, I know) that he's actually a brilliant 13 and Ireland perform better with him there?

    I'd agree with this. Assuming nothing changes significantly with player performance I would imagine that Aki will have be a strong contender at 12 next year and Henshaw or an other will play outside him.


  • #559
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's amazing. The move isn't confirmed, the position he will play is unknown and yet the first shots in the great 2017 Henshaw v McCloskey debate have well and truly been fired.

    I'm amazed at how upset the prospect of Henshaw playing 12 is getting some people, the guy has a load of successful international caps there yet is "wasted". As Buer said the other day, if it wasn't for growing competition at 12, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

    My opinion on it is simple, if Henshaw is coming to Leinster to play 12, then 12 is where he wants to play, and Leinster is where he wants to play it, because he certainly had plenty of other options.
    You mean if Ireland had nobody else to play 12 nobody would question playing a 13/15 there?

    Truly shocking Venjur, imagine that! :pac:

    I am not sure why you're amazed either. Have you been watching Ireland since last August? Do you think the frustration of Ireland's centre partnership has just magically appeared out of thin air?


  • #560
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    Again, I don't think Henshaw is a nailed on long term 12 for Ireland. We've seen nothing to date that suggests this is definitely where his future lies.

    What happens if we discover (shockingly, I know) that he's actually a brilliant 13 and Ireland perform better with him there?

    Then he can play at 13 for Ireland and 12 for Leinster if he's established there.

    As I mentioned elsewhere and IBF says, they'll mix and match anyway and Henshaw already does pop up at 13 for Ireland in attack.

    There's plenty of precedent for players playing in different positions for their provinces as well. SOB played blindside for us in the 2011 6N but played openside in the HEC knock outs, for example.

    I don't recall Sexton ever having to line out at 12 for Leinster either before the weird ROG/Sexton axis being tried for Ireland in the latter stages of games.


  • #561
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Buer wrote: »
    I think it really is incompatible. He'd be wasted if he was on the wing. Or at flanker. It's not a waste when you're putting him in a position where he has clearly excelled at the very top level. I mean, how can it be a waste if he plays well and benefits his team? He may perform better in another position but it's not a waste if he's playing really well there.

    A pretty decent equivalent is saying that it was a waste putting D'Arcy to 12 (a position he actually didn't have any experience in) to accommodate others. But it wasn't a waste. It was the best use of resources and allowed Leinster and Ireland get their two best centres onto the field at the same time which ultimately was of benefit to all parties.

    A waste would be putting him at 13, dropping a highly promising player in Ringrose and being forced to play someone like Reid at 12 which would, in turn, impact on Henshaw at 13. You can't simply look at everything in isolation.

    Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6 Nations in 2004 playing outside centre. Up to that he had been playing on the wing for Leinster.

    Only 3 other Irish players have won that (BOD, Bowe & POC).


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  • #562
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    jm08 wrote: »
    Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6 Nations in 2004 playing outside centre. Up to that he had been playing on the wing for Leinster.

    I'm well aware....that's precisely my point? :confused:

    Once BOD was back they put him at inside centre to best utilise their resources and it was a massive success.


  • #563
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    jm08 wrote: »
    Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6 Nations in 2004 playing outside centre. Up to that he had been playing on the wing for Leinster.

    No he didn't. We had another guy called Brian O'Driscoll who used to play outside centre.

    D'Arcy's move to centre began at Leinster.


  • #564
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishgrover wrote: »
    I'd agree with this. Assuming nothing changes significantly with player performance I would imagine that Aki will have be a strong contender at 12 next year and Henshaw or an other will play outside him.

    Ireland have plenty of options in the centre and those options will only grow in the next few years.

    The idea that Henshaw is nailed on as a 12 is just fantasy.


  • #565
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    The idea that Henshaw is nailed on as a 12 is just fantasy.

    It's not fantasy given he is absolutely nailed on there, currently. Would anyone take a bet that he doesn't start there against England? I doubt it which would suggest he's about as nailed on as possible.

    That may change in the future though.


  • #566
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6 Nations in 2004 playing outside centre. Up to that he had been playing on the wing for Leinster.

    Only 3 other Irish players have won that (BOD, Bowe & POC).

    This is massively false.

    D'Arcy won Player of the Year in 2006 playing inside center. Kevin Maggs was our 12 in 2004.

    People have this really bizarre recollection of our midfield in that competition. The media said that D'Arcy would probably play outside O'Driscoll because of his lack of experience and so everyone just kept repeating that ad nauseum when in reality we played quite narrowly and both players played off O'Gara and now it's just become an accepted fact.


  • #567
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Sorry, he was IRB nominee in 2004 playing 13.


  • #568
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,019 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Buer wrote: »
    Then he can play at 13 for Ireland and 12 for Leinster if he's established there.

    I sincerely hope you are right, because this would mean Ulster get to play Henderson at 6 and Payne at 15.


  • #569
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This is massively false.

    D'Arcy won Player of the Year in 2006 playing inside center. Kevin Maggs was our 12 in 2004.

    People have this really bizarre recollection of our midfield in that competition. The media said that D'Arcy would probably play outside O'Driscoll because of his lack of experience and so everyone just kept repeating that ad nauseum when in reality we played quite narrowly and both players played off O'Gara and now it's just become an accepted fact.

    Ummm... you may want to check your own recollection...


  • #570
    sfbdqc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 323 ✭✭sfbdqc


    Hype710 wrote: »
    Unless there's a big budget to work with I'd probably keep Triggs. He's done well especially when you compare to some of the recent failures in the position. He's a tight head lock too if I'm not mistaken so would compliment the likes of Molony and Ryan well.

    Ryan will easily be able to play tighthead lock once he fills out.

    Leinster don't need a signing at lock with plenty of young talented players needing the gametime to develop.


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  • #571
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    Sorry, he was IRB nominee in 2004 playing 13.

    Who played 12 for Ireland against Wales, England, Scotland and Italy in 2004?


This discussion has been closed.
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