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Steven Avery (making a murderer) Guilty or innocent?

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Comments

  • #362
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    There's a lot of things which don't add up in Steven's case, like failing to crush the car when he had the means at his disposal so to speak, but even still, he didn't strike me as completely innocent. When he heard his verdict, his reaction wasn't one of a completely innocent man. Minimal emotion. Zero outrage. There was just apathy from him as he sat there and listened.

    I'm aware he was locked up for months in the lead-up to the trial and probably expected a guilty verdict, which would've made him less surprised, but if you're about to effectively lose your life because of something you didn't do, you don't sit there quietly. Yet he did. Even at his elocution, did he strike anyone as completely innocent? I heard a man maintaining his innocence, but his general demenaour seemed to betray his words. He looked and sounded defeated in his bid to convince people that he's innocent. He knows that he's guilty.

    It's far less cut and dry with Brendan, who seems to have been victimised by his own lack of intelligence, but there has to be more to that story. There's no way he'd still be locked up if there was video evidence of him being cohersed into making a confession, which there obviously is. The case for his wrongful conviction seems overwhelmingly strong, which is why there has to be another part of the story.

    Finally, It's probably been mentioned, but I really like Dean Strang. You can tell that he and his partner were emotionally attached to the case, which was good to see given that his opposite numbers in the prosecution were solely focused on a conviction.


  • #363
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    There's a lot of things which don't add up in Steven's case, like failing to crush the car when he had the means at his disposal so to speak, but even still, he didn't strike me as completely innocent. When he heard his verdict, his reaction wasn't one of a completely innocent man. Minimal emotion. Zero outrage. There was just apathy from him as he sat there and listened.

    I'm aware he was locked up for months in the lead-up to the trial and probably expected a guilty verdict, which would've made him less surprised, but if you're about to effectively lose your life because of something you didn't do, you don't sit there quietly. Yet he did. Even at his elocution, did he strike anyone as completely innocent? I heard a man maintaining his innocence, but his general demenaour seemed to betray his words. He looked and sounded defeated in his bid to convince people that he's innocent. He knows that he's guilty.

    It's far less cut and dry with Brendan, who seems to have been victimised by his own lack of intelligence, but there has to be more to that story. There's no way he'd still be locked up if there was video evidence of him being cohersed into making a confession, which there obviously is. The case for his wrongful conviction seems overwhelmingly strong, which is why there has to be another part of the story.

    Finally, It's probably been mentioned, but I really like Dean Strang. You can tell that he and his partner were emotionally attached to the case, which was good to see given that his opposite numbers in the prosecution were solely focused on a conviction.



    He seems upset and disappointed to me ...........


  • #364
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Does he look like someone who has been told he's about to spend the rest of his life in prison for something he didn't do? Not to me it doesn't. I'll be more upset than he is there if the football results go against my team tomorrow afternoon.


  • #365
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,745 ✭✭✭threeball


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    There's a lot of things which don't add up in Steven's case, like failing to crush the car when he had the means at his disposal so to speak, but even still, he didn't strike me as completely innocent. When he heard his verdict, his reaction wasn't one of a completely innocent man. Minimal emotion. Zero outrage. There was just apathy from him as he sat there and listened.

    I'm aware he was locked up for months in the lead-up to the trial and probably expected a guilty verdict, which would've made him less surprised, but if you're about to effectively lose your life because of something you didn't do, you don't sit there quietly. Yet he did. Even at his elocution, did he strike anyone as completely innocent? I heard a man maintaining his innocence, but his general demenaour seemed to betray his words. He looked and sounded defeated in his bid to convince people that he's innocent. He knows that he's guilty.

    It's far less cut and dry with Brendan, who seems to have been victimised by his own lack of intelligence, but there has to be more to that story. There's no way he'd still be locked up if there was video evidence of him being cohersed into making a confession, which there obviously is. The case for his wrongful conviction seems overwhelmingly strong, which is why there has to be another part of the story.

    Finally, It's probably been mentioned, but I really like Dean Strang. You can tell that he and his partner were emotionally attached to the case, which was good to see given that his opposite numbers in the prosecution were solely focused on a conviction.

    If hes the emotional person you believe him to be surely he his guilt would be written all over his face in the tv interviews immediately after the murder or in the phone call to his girlfriend who he called in jail within an hour of shooting this girl in the head?
    Maybe he had just resigned himselt to being screwed again.
    You have a case where virtually all the evidence against avery is found by cops who shouldnt be on the property. A cop who calls in a number plate of halbachs car before the car was found in averys yard. A case where they use completely different scenarios to charge two different people for the same murder. A case where the scenario laid out in the press conference never saw the light of day in trial?
    Beyond reasonable doubt? Hope I never end up relying on a jury with you on it


  • #366
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Just seen evidence of him blocking his number calling Theresa earlier in the day then unblocking it 5 hours later.

    Why?


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  • #367
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Does he look like someone who has been told he's about to spend the rest of his life in prison for something he didn't do? Not to me it doesn't. I'll be more upset than he is there if the football results go against my team tomorrow afternoon.
    God I thought he looked gutted. Found that scene quite upsetting.


  • #368
    m1ck007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭m1ck007


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    Just seen evidence of him blocking his number calling Theresa earlier in the day then unblocking it 5 hours later.

    Why?

    Maybe he just felt like it. Doesnt make him a murderer like


  • #369
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Does he look like someone who has been told he's about to spend the rest of his life in prison for something he didn't do? Not to me it doesn't. I'll be more upset than he is there if the football results go against my team tomorrow afternoon.

    He had been through an unlawful conviction before. He's looking at the jury as if, "how could you convict me?".

    That's how I seen it. You obviously seen it differently. It's funny how people can perceive things in different ways depending on what they believe.


  • #370
    m1ck007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭m1ck007


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Guilty....... as sin!

    On what evidence


  • #371
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    If we're judging people on looking guilty / up to no good, then I think its only fair we send the ex and the brother to jail as well.


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  • #372
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    m1ck007 wrote: »
    Maybe he just felt like it. Doesnt make him a murderer like
    I dunno why anyone would just do that because they felt like it - I think it's a bit strange. Doesn't mean I think he's a murderer - most arguments convince me of his innocence, but for me, there is still a teeny bit of room for doubt.


  • #373
    m1ck007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭m1ck007


    Azalea wrote: »
    I dunno why anyone would just do that because they felt like it - I think it's a bit strange. Doesn't mean I think he's a murderer - most arguments convince me of his innocence, but for me, there is still a teeny bit of room for doubt.

    Yea i agree there is room for doubt bur essentially there wasnt enough 'evidence' to convict him and he should be a free man


  • #374
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,745 ✭✭✭threeball


    Azalea wrote: »
    I dunno why anyone would just do that because they felt like it - I think it's a bit strange. Doesn't mean I think he's a murderer - most arguments convince me of his innocence, but for me, there is still a teeny bit of room for doubt.

    Isn't that the whole point of the series and the justice system in general? You may well think theres a possibilty hes guilty but you're not convinced enough to send him to jail for the rest of his life hence he goes free


  • #375
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Azalea wrote: »
    God I thought he looked gutted. Found that scene quite upsetting.

    I'm not saying he doesn't look gutted - I'm saying he doesn't look as gutted as an innocent person would or should had they discovered they'd be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

    He was always going to look gutted regardless whether he did it or not. He'd have known his defence put up a mighty good fight, possibly prompting a bit of hope on his part, but that guilty verdict confirmed his worst fears basically.

    It's the minimal emotion which I can't understand, if he is indeed innocent. No tears. No signs of anger. No pleading. No immediate dispute of any kind. There were just moments of self-pity as he shook his head to each side a few times. That's it. The fact that he had already lost 18 years through a wrongful conviction is all the more reason to display some sort of emotion aside from a bit of head shaking I think.


  • #376
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Azalea wrote: »
    God I thought he looked gutted. Found that scene quite upsetting.

    I'm not saying he doesn't look gutted - I'm saying he doesn't look as gutted as an innocent person would or should had they discovered they'd be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

    He was always going to look gutted regardless whether he did it or not. He'd have known his defence put up a mighty good fight, possibly prompting a bit of hope on his part, but that guilty verdict confirmed his worst fears basically.

    It's the minimal emotion which I can't understand, if he is indeed innocent. No tears. No signs of anger. No pleading. No immediate dispute of any kind. There were just moments of self-pity as he shook his head to each side a few times. That's it. The fact that he had already lost 18 years through a wrongful conviction is all the more reason to display some sort of emotion aside from a bit of head shaking I think.


  • #377
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I'm not saying he doesn't look gutted - I'm saying he doesn't look as gutted as an innocent person would or should had they discovered they'd be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

    He was always going to look gutted regardless whether he did it or not. He'd have known his defence put up a mighty good fight, possibly prompting a bit of hope on his part, but that guilty verdict confirmed his worst fears basically.

    It's the minimal emotion which I can't understand, if he is indeed innocent. No tears. No signs of anger. No pleading. No immediate dispute of any kind. There were just moments of self-pity as he shook his head to each side a few times. That's it. The fact that he had already lost 18 years through a wrongful conviction is all the more reason to display some sort of emotion aside from a bit of head shaking I think.

    What do you want man? Seriously, to expect a certain level of reaction when you haven't been anywhere near what he's been through (presuming he's innocent) is just ridiculous.


  • #378
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    mewe wrote: »
    What do you want man? Seriously, to expect a certain level of reaction when you haven't been anywhere near what he's been through (presuming he's innocent) is just ridiculous.

    Neither have you so where exactly do you get the bollox to tell me I'm wrong?


  • #379
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,745 ✭✭✭threeball


    mewe wrote: »
    What do you want man? Seriously, to expect a certain level of reaction when you haven't been anywhere near what he's been through (presuming he's innocent) is just ridiculous.

    He thinks everyone in life should act like a cornation street character just to add drama to the situation. Doesnt seem to comprehend people deal with life events in different ways.


  • #380
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Neither have you so where exactly do you get the bollox to tell me I'm wrong?

    I'm not the one questioning someones level of reaction in such a serious situation.


  • #381
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I'm not saying he doesn't look gutted - I'm saying he doesn't look as gutted as an innocent person would or should had they discovered they'd be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

    He was always going to look gutted regardless whether he did it or not. He'd have known his defence put up a mighty good fight, possibly prompting a bit of hope on his part, but that guilty verdict confirmed his worst fears basically.

    It's the minimal emotion which I can't understand, if he is indeed innocent. No tears. No signs of anger. No pleading. No immediate dispute of any kind. There were just moments of self-pity as he shook his head to each side a few times. That's it. The fact that he had already lost 18 years through a wrongful conviction is all the more reason to display some sort of emotion aside from a bit of head shaking I think.
    Guess it's a matter of personal perspective. He looked exactly as upset as I expected him to - a look of knowing it was likely that that would be the verdict. At the end of his tether - no energy left to get worked up anymore.


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  • #382
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Neither have you so where exactly do you get the bollox to tell me I'm wrong?

    Btw what are you on about with how do I have the bollox to tell you you're wrong? Is your opinion fact? Let us all bow down to your superior opinion. Seriously, get real.


  • #383
    m1ck007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 573 ✭✭✭m1ck007


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Neither have you so where exactly do you get the bollox to tell me I'm wrong?

    Are you....... Ken Kratz??


  • #384
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    mewe wrote: »
    Btw what are you on about with how do I have the bollox to tell you you're wrong? Is your opinion fact? Let us all bow down to your superior opinion. Seriously, get real.

    Me get real? You're the one jumping down people's throat for suggesting that Steven Avery is guilty and then offering amateur theories as to why he might be guilty.

    Is my opinion fact? No. I used the phrase "I think" at the very end of my last post. Does that suggest I'm speaking authoritatively about this subject? It's my opinion.


  • #385
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Me get real? You're the one jumping down people's throat for suggesting that Steven Avery is guilty and then offering amateur theories as to why he might be guilty.

    Is my opinion fact? No. I used the phrase "I think" at the very end of my last post. Does that suggest I'm speaking authoritatively about this subject? It's my opinion.

    What are you on about? What amateur theory did I offer? I simply called you out on your (imo) amateur psychoanalysis. You need to calm down there Chet.


  • #386
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    I'm talking about my amateur theories. You see, I'm quite humble mate. I'm not trying to come across as an expert. I'm not taking people's heads off for having alternative views. You, on the other hand, are. I'm the one who needs to calm down though :rolleyes:


  • #387
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Ladies, please - no fighting in the war room.


  • #388
    mewe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭mewe


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I'm talking about my amateur theories. You see, I'm quite humble mate. I'm not trying to come across as an expert. I'm not taking people's heads off for having alternative views. You, on the other hand, are. I'm the one who needs to calm down though :rolleyes:

    Fair enough I picked you up wrong on that so. You're the one who was like how dare you say I'm wrong. I certainly aint one for jumping down peoples throat but if I disagree with your opinion I'm within my rights to say it. Lets agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.


  • #389
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Guilty.


  • #390
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    I'm not saying he doesn't look gutted - I'm saying he doesn't look as gutted as an innocent person would or should had they discovered they'd be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

    He was always going to look gutted regardless whether he did it or not. He'd have known his defence put up a mighty good fight, possibly prompting a bit of hope on his part, but that guilty verdict confirmed his worst fears basically.

    It's the minimal emotion which I can't understand, if he is indeed innocent. No tears. No signs of anger. No pleading. No immediate dispute of any kind. There were just moments of self-pity as he shook his head to each side a few times. That's it. The fact that he had already lost 18 years through a wrongful conviction is all the more reason to display some sort of emotion aside from a bit of head shaking I think.

    The man looked gutted when the Verdict was read out, he was in total shock and looked like he was going to vomit ......... in short, you're wrong in your assessment of his reaction, simple as that really.


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  • #391
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    Je suis Mario wrote: »
    Guilty.

    Not Guilty.


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