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Steven Avery (making a murderer) Guilty or innocent?

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Comments

  • #332
    Noo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭Noo


    8-10 wrote: »
    If you don't think that they made a mistake finding him guilty of murder, do you also think that they did not make a mistake finding him Not Guilty of mutilating a corpse?

    If they correctly found him not guilty of that - who burned the body?

    If you think that Steven Avery burned the body, then the jury must have gotten that wrong?

    This was also something that stuck with me, if everything happened the way the prosecution made out then how on earth was he found guity of murder but not of mutilating a corpse? Obviously getting the murder conviction was the biggie but its still odd.


  • #333
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Ri_Nollaig wrote: »
    He served 18 years for the first proven wrongful conviction and has been in prison for 11 for the second which is currently pending.

    So you are saying 29+ years for killing a cat? :confused:
    I love my cat too but seriously?
    I don't think you'd even get a fine if you did that here. Half the country's scumbags would be locked up every Halloween if it was the case!

    Think the documentary showed that he was a colourful character to say the latest and probably not the nicest person, i.e. killing the cat and probably other things. But still talking the vast majority of his adult life in prison at this stage. For his own sanity I hope he did the murder as its just unbelievable otherwise.

    Eh you could easily serve jail time for it.

    People continually omit the fact he was sentenced to six years for ordering a woman into his car at gunpoint.


  • #334
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Tigger wrote: »
    It's not justice but if burning a cat gets 29 years the the scrotes would probably stop.
    But he wasn't/isn't in prison for 29 years for burning a cat :confused: And there is no such sentence for burning a cat so it won't stop scumbags from burning cats unfortunately.

    He did get the punishment on the statutes for animal cruelty back in the early 80s. Subsequent sentences (including the wrongful one) are for different crimes.


  • #335
    Ri_Nollaig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭Ri_Nollaig


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Eh you could easily serve jail time for it.

    I know there is animal cruelty laws here, but most [especially if they are under 18] will likely get away with it. :(
    You would really have to go out of your way to get any sort of custodial sentence for animal cruelty in Ireland.


  • #336
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Eh you could easily serve jail time for it.

    People continually omit the fact he was sentenced to six years for ordering a woman into his car at gunpoint.

    He's clearly a saint


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  • #337
    8-10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,799 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    Ri_Nollaig wrote: »
    He served 18 years for the first proven wrongful conviction

    6 of these 18 years was for a conviction of endangering safety when he ran his cousin off the road and put a gun to her head don't forget! (episode 1)

    Proven wrongful conviction for the sexual assault - yes. But doesn't mean he shouldn't have served none of the 18, he still should have served 6 of them.


  • #338
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Senna wrote: »
    I would really hate if his new DA found something that could quash his conviction, he gets out, not retrial and no answers.
    I think he done it, but would like a retrial to get a fair judgment.

    So you'd hate if he was exonerated because of new evidence to prove he didn't do it? You'd hate if an innocent man was set free? All because you wouldn't get answers about what really happened... Right.


  • #339
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    8-10 wrote: »
    If you don't think that they made a mistake finding him guilty of murder, do you also think that they did not make a mistake finding him Not Guilty of mutilating a corpse?

    If they correctly found him not guilty of that - who burned the body?

    If you think that Steven Avery burned the body, then the jury must have gotten that wrong?

    Brendan Dassey was found guilty of mutilating the corpse. Just like Kratz said "one man is responsible for this" and both of them are in prison...


  • #340
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    People continually omit the fact he was sentenced to six years for ordering a woman into his car at gunpoint.

    Just to sit there or did he take or somewhere and do something?


  • #341
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Eh you could easily serve jail time for it.

    People continually omit the fact he was sentenced to six years for ordering a woman into his car at gunpoint.

    You seem to be implying that he was attempting to kidnap some random woman?

    He actually ordered the woman out of her car, at gunpoint, as she drove past his property ......... the woman in question was his cousin, the gun wasn't loaded and the motive for his action was to frighten her into stop spreading (false, according to him) rumours about him .......... it was basically a domestic/family dispute that got out of hand.
    And, obviously, Steven handled the situation terribly resulting in a (relatively harsh) sentence of six years which he served every day of ....... and then some!

    Unfortunately for Mr. Avery, the woman (his cousin) was married to a Manitowoc County Sheriff's Deputy ......... it would appear that this incident was the catalyst for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department to focus on Steven Avery (and only Steven Avery) when the rape occurred ........ they managed to achieve their goal of having him (wrongfully) convicted of that crime.


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  • #342
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Tigger wrote: »
    He's clearly a saint
    I think they were implying the very opposite to that.

    He definitely doesn't seem like a saint but wrongful conviction is wrongful conviction. And sketchy evidence is sketchy evidence.


  • #343
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    Ken Kratz: AMURDERERSAYSWHAT

    Avery : What

    Ken Kratz: Case closed


  • #344
    Senna
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    smash wrote: »
    So you'd hate if he was exonerated because of new evidence to prove he didn't do it? You'd hate if an innocent man was set free? All because you wouldn't get answers about what really happened... Right.

    I meant the conviction being squashed on a technicality that isn't related to evidence or guilt, which let's face it, that's probably the best this new DA can hope for. Obviously new evidence would answer some/maybe all questions. Sorry I can't be quite as dramatic as you with my answers.


  • #345
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Senna wrote: »
    I meant the conviction being squashed on a technicality that isn't related to evidence or guilt, which let's face it, that's probably the best this new DA can hope for. Obviously new evidence would answer some/maybe all questions. Sorry I can't be quite as dramatic as you with my answers.

    No it's not. His new attorney (Not DA) is allowed build a case surrounding alternative suspects and evidence pointing to them. This evidence will include at the very least:
    • The additional blood found in the SUV which was identified as human but dismissed as it didn't match Avery or Halbach.
    • The additional fingerprints found in the SUV which were dismissed as they didn't match Avery or Halbach.
    • The deletion of voice mails from Halbach's phone which would link in to the theory that Avery was not Halbach's final stop.

    Strang and Buting could not introduce additional suspects or deviate from the case because their sole job was to defend Avery on the charge of murder and the course to do so was to prove that the evidence either wasn't sufficient or was planted by a corrupt police force.


  • #346
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    You seem to be implying that he was attempting to kidnap some random woman?

    He actually ordered the woman out of her car, at gunpoint, as she drove past his property ......... the woman in question was his cousin, the gun wasn't loaded and the motive for his action was to frighten her into stop spreading (false, according to him) rumours about him .......... it was basically a domestic/family dispute that got out of hand.
    And, obviously, Steven handled the situation terribly resulting in a (relatively harsh) sentence of six years which he served every day of ....... and then some!

    Unfortunately for Mr. Avery, the woman (his cousin) was married to a Manitowoc County Sheriff's Deputy ......... it would appear that this incident was the catalyst for the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department to focus on Steven Avery (and only Steven Avery) when the rape occurred ........ they managed to achieve their goal of having him (wrongfully) convicted of that crime.

    "In 1985, Avery was charged with assaulting his cousin after he ran her off the road at gunpoint. The cousin, the wife of a part-time Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy, had earlier complained that Avery had exposed himself when she drove past his house.[7] Avery was sentenced to six years for endangering the safety of another person.[8] According to Avery, the gun was not loaded, and he was trying to stop her from spreading false rumors about him"

    You are presenting Mr Averys side of the story. If she is telling the truth puts a different slant on it eh?


  • #347
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    "In 1985, Avery was charged with assaulting his cousin after he ran her off the road at gunpoint. The cousin, the wife of a part-time Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy, had earlier complained that Avery had exposed himself when she drove past his house.[7] Avery was sentenced to six years for endangering the safety of another person.[8] According to Avery, the gun was not loaded, and he was trying to stop her from spreading false rumors about him"

    You are presenting Mr Averys side of the story. If she is telling the truth puts a different slant on it eh?

    Were you trying to prove some point with that post??? :confused:

    What you quoted is exactly what I have already posted, minus the part in bold ....... is that in some way significant to you?


  • #348
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    "In 1985, Avery was charged with assaulting his cousin after he ran her off the road at gunpoint. The cousin, the wife of a part-time Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy, had earlier complained that Avery had exposed himself when she drove past his house.[7] Avery was sentenced to six years for endangering the safety of another person.[8] According to Avery, the gun was not loaded, and he was trying to stop her from spreading false rumors about him"

    You are presenting Mr Averys side of the story. If she is telling the truth puts a different slant on it eh?

    Yet when Sandra Morris was deposed she was fumbling over her own stories and started to back track on her claims of public masturbation etc.


  • #349
    xtradel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭xtradel


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    "In 1985, Avery was charged with assaulting his cousin after he ran her off the road at gunpoint. The cousin, the wife of a part-time Manitowoc County sheriff's deputy, had earlier complained that Avery had exposed himself when she drove past his house.[7] Avery was sentenced to six years for endangering the safety of another person.[8] According to Avery, the gun was not loaded, and he was trying to stop her from spreading false rumors about him"

    He had no feckin underwear!! How would he not expose himself after a shower and wearing a towel whilst drying himself off in the manitowac sun....or snow depending on the episode :pac:


  • #350
    recylingbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭recylingbin


    MonkieSocks wrote: »
    why would Avery, who was probably gong get a lot of money, through a filed a $36 million federal lawsuit against Manitowoc County.

    Kill a Woman, who a lot of pepople knew was going out to his peoperty.

    .

    Just to watch her die?


  • #351
    Ann22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,005 ✭✭✭Ann22


    "The Staircase" is another great, guilty or innocent serialised documentary (on YouTube). I was glued to it. There's a short follow up episode after the final one so don't read up on Wiki soon as it's over.


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  • #352
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    Ann22 wrote: »
    "The Staircase" is another great, guilty or innocent serialised documentary (on YouTube). I was glued to it. There's a short follow up episode after the final one so don't read up on Wiki soon as it's over.
    I went straight on to The Staircase after Making a Murderer and thought it was great too. The Jinx is also well worth a watch.


  • #353
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Just watched episode nine. Did not realise Brendan's fate before that. Poor boy. :(


  • #354
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Guilty....... as sin!


  • #355
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    I've just reached the end of Making A Murderer. Throughout it, I veered back and forth between thinking Steven Avery was innocent and then guilty of Teresa Halbach's murder... now I'm convinced he is innocent of it.
    I do not think a guilty person would request 24 boxes of case files and get to work day in day out at the prison law library, determined never to give up, never losing momentum, on building an appeal case for themselves - and still with such resolve ten years after the crime was committed.


  • #356
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,181 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Azalea wrote: »
    I've just reached the end of Making A Murderer. Throughout it, I veered back and forth between thinking Steven Avery was innocent and then guilty of Teresa Halbach's murder... now I'm convinced he is innocent of it.
    I do not think a guilty person would request 24 boxes of case files and get to work day in day out at the prison law library, determined never to give up, never losing momentum, on building an appeal case for themselves - and still with such resolve ten years after the crime was committed.

    What else are you going to do. Guilty or innocent, even he knows there were plenty of screw ups by both 'law enforcement' and the prosecution.


  • #357
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    What else are you going to do. Guilty or innocent, even he knows there were plenty of screw ups by both 'law enforcement' and the prosecution.
    What else are you going to do? Well I don't think a guilty person would go to that much trouble seeing as they're guilty. Of course you are right in that they might, but I still think he's innocent of this crime (not innocent of others in his past, apart from the first wrongful conviction) - not just because of that, but because of the very sketchy evidence and the inconsistencies and slip-ups by law enforcement and its associated personnel (most explicit in the Brendan Dassey case) and the involvement of his county (attempted to be kept under wraps) in the initial investigation when the official line was that they were not to be involved.


  • #358
    J Mysterio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,181 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Its a cliche that everyone in jail is innocent. Many never admit guilt and many spend significant time working on their cases inside, you have a lot of time.


  • #359
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,151 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    The non disposal of the Rav 4 and the blood left in it with his knowledge of DNA from the previous case are what raises most doubts for me, 2 simple simple things that nobody in his shoes could be so stupid to let go.


  • #360
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    And then there are people who are found guilty based on solid evidence, who haven't got cause for protestations of innocence - Avery is not one of those IMO.


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  • #361
    Tipperary Fairy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Tipperary Fairy


    Ann22 wrote: »
    "The Staircase" is another great, guilty or innocent serialised documentary (on YouTube). I was glued to it. There's a short follow up episode after the final one so don't read up on Wiki soon as it's over.

    It was the owl!


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