Strength & Conditioning for Runners

Lougheee · 21-12-2015 11:05PM

happygoose wrote: »

S&C seems to be overlooked by a lot on here. I think there's a fear factor and the thought that it's something that'll be hard to get into, easy to get wrong, something for track and field, something that'll lead to weight gains, something that'll get people injured. It's actually easy to get into and easy to make progress in. You'd need the help and advice of a proper S&C coach though, ideally one who knows athletics and is aware of your goals, one that can spend an hour a month with you addressing technique and spotting weaknesses etc.

Nice post HG. I have pigeonholed myself as a distance runner who just runs distance. You can become set in your ways. I agree with what you say about how easy it can be to progress at first because a lot of us are starting from scratch. So literally anything I do in the gym is an improvement on the nothing I have been doing all year. Introducing a new component to your training regimen takes a bit of effort, but the excitement drawn from making those gains is great fuel for the fire.

I've done a lot of swimming this year. One thing I've learned is you can get hooked on making those little improvements week on week. I would be giddy driving home from swimming after setting a big PB in training. If I can get that feeling with the gym I know I'll keep coming back. Not sure if that is completely applicable to S&C but that's what I'm trying to tell myself as strength work in the gym is probably where I could make the biggest improvement with the least effort, if I bothered to address them. 'My ambition is handicapped by laziness.'

pconn062 · 22-12-2015 10:34AM

Lougheee wrote: »

Nice post HG. I have pigeonholed myself as a distance runner who just runs distance. You can become set in your ways. I agree with what you say about how easy it can be to progress at first because a lot of us are starting from scratch. So literally anything I do in the gym is an improvement on the nothing I have been doing all year. Introducing a new component to your training regimen takes a bit of effort, but the excitement drawn from making those gains is great fuel for the fire.

I've done a lot of swimming this year. One thing I've learned is you can get hooked on making those little improvements week on week. I would be giddy driving home from swimming after setting a big PB in training. If I can get that feeling with the gym I know I'll keep coming back. Not sure if that is completely applicable to S&C but that's what I'm trying to tell myself as strength work in the gym is probably where I could make the biggest improvement with the least effort, if I bothered to address them. 'My ambition is handicapped by laziness.'

That's a great point, and it's one of the things that has kept me at the gym. Runners are competitive and need targets and goals, so it's things like lifting weights PB's that keep me going.

DubOnHoliday · 22-12-2015 11:17AM

This is a very good thread. Over the last few months I've developed a big imbalance in my core. One side being much strong than the other resulting in sevaral issues on the weaker side, namely OP and ITB. I've started a gym programme to build back up the strength which I'd largely overlooked after taking up running. Hopefully it won't take to long to sort myself out.

colossus-x · 22-12-2015 07:32PM

Been doing squats for bodybuilding purposes consistently for the last almost 2 years when I would have been running longer than that. Last few months I defiantly feel more power in my legs and my overall running performance. It takes a long time to build significant muscle/strength so it will take quite a while to feel the benefits but they do come afaic.

Timmaay · 23-12-2015 01:22AM

http://www.flotrack.org/article/21661-to-make-it-to-the-next-level-strength-training-is-a-must

Myles Splitz · 24-12-2015 02:17PM

A Great thread can't believe I missed it first time around.

I think one of the biggest issues here is that Strength and conditioning is too broad a term and as such is interpreted differently by individuals.

I think this needs to be broken down into following

1) Flexibility and mobility. Core, injury prevention etc is often what people associate with the term

2) Strength (again broken into different parts)
- Anatomical Adaptation
- Hypertrophy
- Max Strength (Force Production)

UP, HG and Chivito all made valid points about different aspects of training. I would even suggest that HG's point about anatomical adaptation even be taken further with a phase of lighter higher rep ranges before the more traditional hypertrophy phase he has mentioned.

For people relatively new to this style of work - Maximise functional range of movement - create muscle mass - Force production (power), you can't have full benefits without all three aspects.

Lastly as demfad mentioned explosive power is just as important. Plyometrics, Complex Training (combination of Power and velocity movements) High Velocity Olympic lifts etc can yield huge benefits coverting power developed from the strength training into tangible performance enhancers

Definitely think that some elements that people often forget about with weight training aside from the injury prevention element.

- Hypertrophy type training can help develop glyocgen stores - increased muscle mass can increase storage capabilities (within reason). This if nothing else should be of interest to Marathon and Half Marathon runners.

- Not all strength training is working on fast twitch. Heavy lifting can be important for fibre recruitment (in particular type II fibres and type IIa) however high rep ranges can help in developing fatigue resistance characteristics which can help develop type one fibre capabilities.

- Running economy can be developed which can yield huge benefits in energy expenditure.

Bottom line is that S & C is just as important an aspect to training as running and if it is incorporated correctly it can yield much higher returns than an extra 45-60 min run as long as the running overall is not being ignored.

pc11 · 25-12-2015 02:10PM

I can't add much to what's been said except:

strength training is very important, particularly as we get older.it maintains muscle mass and balance which are vital. It helps with muscle imbalance, injury prevention, rehab and just running faster.
Don't be afraid to build up steadily to fairly heavy weights. Faffing around wiht little dumbells is a wast of time. Key is to build up carefully.
Don't forget unilateral exercises - squats are superb but don't forget to do lunges and step ups also.
As a general principle, don't be afraid to do intense training. Too many of us, especially older runners and women, just never do intense work, whether it's weights or sprints or intervals. This is a mistake. Once or twice a week, do something hard.
It's worth getting some advice or coaching to do it right. A good physio, personal trainer or coach will get you started.
Take your time, be patient, think long term.

pconn062 · 04-01-2016 06:15PM

Re-reading Magness's Science of Running at the minute and he has a healthy section dedicated to strength training. Regarding reps/weights he says

....start with the complete opposite, higher weight-low reps. The reason is that when lifting heavy for only 1-6 reps, the enhancements in strength are almost entirely neural. The heavy weight challenges the nervous system without having a high total volume to elicit enough of a protein response to trigger changes in muscle size. Therefore, heavy training with low reps is the way to go for neurally induced gains in strength and muscle fiber recruitment.

Essentially, runners (especially long distance runners) are always afraid that lifting heavy weights will cause them to gain weight, but if the reps are kept low there is not enough stimulus to encourage actual changes in the muscle size but strength gains can still be made through changes to the neural response.
It should be said that Magness advises a period of just bodyweight exercises before starting heavy lifting to make sure the body is adapted to some strength work and to ensure correct form is used.

He also has a periodisation plan of how strength training should be incorporated throughout the season. Heavy training like above (deadlifts, lunges, squats) are done in base phase. Then the focus is shifted to power training. These exercises focus on movements that are similar to running, and are not to be confused with plyometrics. He says

The difference is that power training is concerned with a single explosive movement followed by a brief period of rest and then repeating the explosive movement. On the other hand, plyometrics consist of a series of movements one after another with the goal of minimizing the time spent on the ground.

Power training exercises include squat jumps, split jump squats, box jumps and standing long jumps. Also, very steep hill sprints.

Plyo's then are used to improve the shortening of ground contact time and elastic energy storage and release. Examples include single and double support hops or sprinting.

His overall plan for the season looks something like this:

Phase|Main strength workout|Outside strength work
Introduction|Movement based, general strength. Establish balance and movement patterns|
Base|2 days per week of: 2 sets of 4-5 reps progressing w/full rest between full squats and cleans|Hill Sprints
Pre-competition|1-2 days per week of: 2 sets of 6-10 reps of the following-Squat jumps external weight =30% bodyweight, standing long jump (holding dumbells 20% B/W), box jump (weight 10-15% B/W) w/30-90 secs rec, 3-4 mins between sets|Flat sprints and strength endurance circuits
Late Pre-comp|Bodyweight only one day per week of: 1 set of 6-10 reps of standing long jump, box jump for height, single leg squat jump. And 1 set of 5 reps for two plyo exercises (double leg hops, double leg tuck jumps| Flat sprints and high intensity strength endurance circuits
Competition|1 day per week of 1 set of 6-8 reps of 3 plyo exercises: double leg hops, single leg hops, bounding|Specific strength endurance, sprints
Peaking|None or maintenance|Hill sprints/flat sprints for maintenance

Just thought it might be of interest to some.

DubOnHoliday · 06-01-2016 11:29AM

Question: If I do a gym session where I do a lot of leg resitence, lets say an 80 min session where I include a cross trainer to break up my sets. Should I forget running that day? Note, I'm on a recovery road (from ITB) so I have to set some perspective there.

pconn062 · 06-01-2016 11:50AM

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

Question: If I do a gym session where I do a lot of leg resitence, lets say an 80 min session where I include a cross trainer to break up my sets. Should I forget running that day? Note, I'm on a recovery road (from ITB) so I have to set some perspective there.

In my opinion I would say Yes, for now anyway. That is quite a long session and is putting a lot of stress on the legs. General advice (when not recovering from injury) would be to keep your hard days hard so some coaches would advise doing hard running sessions and gym sessions on the same day, which leaves your easy/recovery days VERY easy. However, in my experience I can't handle that so I do my gym days on easy running days and don't go overboard with the intensity (especially on the run).

HelenAnne · 07-01-2016 03:27PM

I went back to Pilates yesterday after a two-week Xmas break. I definitely feel it in my core today

. Of course I'd said I'd keep it up over the break, but apart from a bit of stretching etc and a few half-hearted push ups, I didn't really. I never push myself as hard at home alone anyway as I do in class, so I'm definitely going to keep it up for 2016.

(I know Pilates doesn't sound as hard as lifting huge weights etc, but I find it pretty tough!)

IvoryTower · 14-01-2016 05:27PM

According to magness, would 2 weeks be pre-competition time? or late pre-competition? I'm doing my first race at the end of the month(I think), should I leave out heavier stuff for jumping squats etc?

it's a pity really cause I'm only getting going!

pconn062 · 14-01-2016 10:50PM

IvoryTower wrote: »

According to magness, would 2 weeks be pre-competition time? or late pre-competition? I'm doing my first race at the end of the month(I think), should I leave out heavier stuff for jumping squats etc?

it's a pity really cause I'm only getting going!

It really depends how long your season is going to be. If you were only going to do a few indoor races then I wouldn't make any drastic changes to your S+C plan, apart from not doing any leg work a few days before the race. Indoor season is usually very short so I would just stick with my normal plan and then aim to periodise it a little more for outdoor season, which is much longer.

rom · 15-01-2016 01:53AM

Personally running is a hobby. I like it. I don't like gym work. I did do it a few years back with a 1 to 1 coach twice a week for 6 weeks and it made a huge difference and still have the plan but I hated it. tbh I am going to take up swimming shortly for this reason. I believe Krusty does climbing to build core but again if its something you enjoy then you don't mind doing it.

Chivito550 · 15-01-2016 12:06PM

IvoryTower wrote: »

According to magness, would 2 weeks be pre-competition time? or late pre-competition? I'm doing my first race at the end of the month(I think), should I leave out heavier stuff for jumping squats etc?

it's a pity really cause I'm only getting going!

I'd always do weights on a Monday and Thursday. If the race was on a Saturday I'd do maybe one less set of each leg exercise on the Thursday (but don't drop the weight). If the race was on a Sunday, you could get away with doing the full session. When I was in Australia I'd do my gym work on Monday and Wednesday, and I never adjusted my Wednesday gym session for a Saturday race.

My coach in Melbourne told me that I can't be freshening up for every race. Some races you just have to train through.

The more important races I ease back on the gym work a small bit.

Myles Splitz · 15-01-2016 12:09PM

IvoryTower wrote: »

According to magness, would 2 weeks be pre-competition time? or late pre-competition? I'm doing my first race at the end of the month(I think), should I leave out heavier stuff for jumping squats etc?

it's a pity really cause I'm only getting going!

pconn062 wrote: »

It really depends how long your season is going to be. If you were only going to do a few indoor races then I wouldn't make any drastic changes to your S+C plan, apart from not doing any leg work a few days before the race. Indoor season is usually very short so I would just stick with my normal plan and then aim to periodise it a little more for outdoor season, which is much longer.

Personally I would be inclined to agree with pconn to an extent here.

I would say continue your usual routine but I would decrease the weight on reps, opt for a deloading day where you focus on form instead.

Chivito550 · 15-01-2016 12:11PM

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Personally I would be inclined to agree with pconn to an extent here.

I would say continue your usual routine but I would decrease the weight on reps, opt for a deloading day where you focus on form instead.

Advice I've usually been given has been to never decrease the weight. Keep the intensity, just do less sets. Might be different for a distance runner, but that's what both my previous S&C coaches would tell me.

happygoose · 15-01-2016 12:16PM

http://ylmsportscience.blogspot.ie/2015/05/runners-never-stop-strength-training.html

Myles Splitz · 15-01-2016 12:29PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Advice I've usually been given has been to never decrease the weight. Keep the intensity, just do less sets. Might be different for a distance runner, but that's what both my previous S&C coaches would tell me.

With sprinters usually that would be the more favorable approach no doubt especially for the more power based (100/200 especially) given the high rep low weight nature of it however given IT's winter background with cross country and the more middle distance sessions (I know he has since changed approach but the athlete background still applies given his previous XC training and the middle distance style sessions he had been doing (5x800 etc) )

Neither is wrong but my personal opinion would be the former in this incidence would yield better feeling of recovery at the moment with the Less volume approach working better in the summer race period.

carlaboi · 17-01-2016 08:07PM

Can anyone recommend a good S&C coach please? Need someone to guide me!

Gavlor · 17-01-2016 09:16PM

carlaboi wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a good S&C coach please? Need someone to guide me!

I've heard good things about john kavanagh but he spends a lot of time in the states. Worth a try though

IvoryTower · 17-01-2016 09:17PM

Gavlor wrote: »

I've heard good things about john kavanagh but he spends a lot of time in the states. Worth a try though

Conor mcgregors coach?!

Gavlor · 17-01-2016 09:34PM

IvoryTower wrote: »

Conor mcgregors coach?!

A+

Seannew1 · 23-01-2016 08:19PM

Last November, I couldn't break through the sub 24 mark at 5k so decided in December to undergo a gym programme and do circuits etc. I haven't been doing much running as I've focussed entirely on the strength and resistance training. I do feel like I've got a lot stronger, however, I went for a 5k run today and was slow and struggled a lot with my breathing. Have I jepordised my running fitness in favor of this strength/resistance prowess? Would be interested to hear your thoughts as I'm sure you lot are more prolific experienced runners than an amateur like me!!

pconn062 · 23-01-2016 09:25PM

Seannew1 wrote: »

Last November, I couldn't break through the sub 24 mark at 5k so decided in December to undergo a gym programme and do circuits etc. I haven't been doing much running as I've focussed entirely on the strength and resistance training. I do feel like I've got a lot stronger, however, I went for a 5k run today and was slow and struggled a lot with my breathing. Have I jepordised my running fitness in favor of this strength/resistance prowess? Would be interested to hear your thoughts as I'm sure you lot are more prolific experienced runners than an amateur like me!!

I wouldn't say you have jepordised anything by doing the circuit training, you've simply let your running fitness slide. If you get back into regular running while maintaining the circuits, you should be able to get back to where you were.

Seannew1 · 24-01-2016 02:42PM

pconn062 wrote: »

I wouldn't say you have jepordised anything by doing the circuit training, you've simply let your running fitness slide. If you get back into regular running while maintaining the circuits, you should be able to get back to where you were.

Thanks, I've been doing long distance running(around the 16k mark) more regularly, of course at very slow speeds. I've left the speed work, I assume this is what I need to work on again? I assumed that the gym work I was doing(which is all speed related) would help me.

Bluesquare · 26-01-2016 08:33AM

Hi,

I want to add core/strengthening work to my schedule . I find it difficult to find the time to fit everything in- long commute kids etc. Currently running about 35k a week but will be building towards 60k for a marathon in September .

I am looking for a recommendation for a DVD - I find following programs by myself way to dull and need more structure . I like Shaun T and the dynamic core from t25 but the rest of the set are too jumpy .

Any help appreciated.

Thanks
Bluesquare

IvoryTower · 26-01-2016 11:46AM

For mobility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W5noV3EkRI

Core Exercises for Running/Cycling/Swimming

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=486

RuMan · 26-01-2016 01:28PM

Bluesquare wrote: »

Hi,

I want to add core/strengthening work to my schedule . I find it difficult to find the time to fit everything in- long commute kids etc. Currently running about 35k a week but will be building towards 60k for a marathon in September .

I am looking for a recommendation for a DVD - I find following programs by myself way to dull and need more structure . I like Shaun T and the dynamic core from t25 but the rest of the set are too jumpy .

Any help appreciated.

Thanks
Bluesquare

Jay Johnson has some good stuff. Short routines and running specific. Hill work is also useful. In an ideal world i'd be going to the gym/pilates a few times week realistically i wont bother so if i manage a 10-15 min running specific routine at the end of most runs i'm happy. I also used an App (YAYOG) with vidoes on my phone which has a bodyweight exercise programme. Not entirely running specific but useful. Might be worthwhile visting a S&C coach initally to help identify weaknesses and set up an individual programme you can work on yourself.

DubOnHoliday · 26-01-2016 06:17PM

I find running the day after a S&C session really tough, the legs are so stiff and heavy. Is that a sign I'm doing to much in the S&C? Or should I just do as I'm doing and run it out the next day...

Strength & Conditioning for Runners

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