What to tell kids when they ask?

PopePalpatine · 31-12-2015 03:30PM

Swanner wrote: »

Nonsense. It's a perfect analogy particularly when you look at the census 2011 figures and see that the vast vast majority of people in this country define themselves as belonging to a religious organisation. 84% of the population define themselves as Roman Catholic. Yet you say they have no mandate ?

You mightn't like it but they have a very significant mandate from the vast majority of the population and the stats support that.

And yet we approved marriage equality. There's been a survey a few weeks ago where 40% of respondents said they wanted a secular education. You, frostyjacks, OEJ, and the Legatus Lackeys don't have a "vast majority".

Mary63 · 31-12-2015 03:40PM

The problem is the catholic schools in high demand areas are full of catholic children.You don't expect Irish schools or Muslim schools or Protestant schools to turn away their cohort just because they haven't places for non muslim children for example.Why should the catholic school management be expected to do this either.

Why should the local catholic school turn away parish children to accommodate atheists who are going to whinge every time a child blesses herself.Do you think the catholic parents whether they practice or not and that is entirely between themselves and their God,want to have atheists parents wearing a track to the school moaning because their child is exposed to religion,the principal and teachers have better things to do than facilitate pandering to this nonsense.A few prayers will never do any child a bit of harm.

xband · 31-12-2015 03:51PM

Because almost all schools in Ireland (well over 90%) are nominally catholic giving them a de facto monopoly on the provision of an obligatory attendance state service.

It's a ridiculous way to organise anything and we shouldn't really have public schools with any particular religious policies. They should simply be welcoming to everyone, like all other state services.

The Bishop Basher · 31-12-2015 03:51PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And yet we approved marriage equality. There's been a survey a few weeks ago where 40% of respondents said they wanted a secular education. You, frostyjacks, OEJ, and the Legatus Lackeys don't have a "vast majority".

40% is still a minority. and a minority is a minority no matter what way you swing it.

But just as you question the authenticity of religious people, equally I meet many people who label themselves atheist but actually when you have a discussion with them you find they often have some form of belief in something. That's not atheism.

Understandably, they got pissed off with the RC church, they rejected the dogma and they stopped going to mass but they also threw the baby out with the bathwater without ever doing any real soul searching or without seeking out alternatives. That's perfectly ok by the way. I'm not judging their motives or their actions. But if you have some form of a belief in something other, you are not an atheist.

Many others have found alternatives and you can see numbers in the CoI are increasing as a result.

I'm not challenging anyone's beliefs here. How can I. I'm just relaying my own personal experience from discussions with others and I would challenge the label in some cases. This is the problem. There are so many nuances and possibilities that a one size fits all can never ever work.

The trend by the way is definitely moving away from religion. I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing myself but i have no doubt that change is coming. But for now you are a minority living in a democracy and like it or not, that can come with distinct disadvantages as your currently discovering.

Once again, and back on point, you might not like it, but reality is reality.

Huntergonzo · 31-12-2015 03:54PM

Swanner wrote: »

I don't know. Do you ? Are you suggesting they're not really Roman Catholic ? Are you saying you understand their beliefs better then they do ? Please elaborate. I'm intrigued to know where your going with this one..

I know a nonbeliever who identifies himself as a 'catholic', now what he calls himself is none of my business but the criteria these days seems highly subjective.

Ps, you really need me to hold your hand to where I'm going with this one, it isn't hard..........if the catholic church runs the education system then a lot of people are probably going to identify themselves as catholics.

The problem is though that most of the '84%' were given a menu with only 1 option, to quote the great Homer Simpson = "What if we picked the wrong religion? Every week we're just making God madder and madder"

Swanner wrote: »

We vote for our government, made up primarily of Christians and even more primarily of Roman Catholics, who in turn make these decisions. That's democracy in action. Sorry it doesn't suit your agenda but as with my original point, while I don't like it any more then you do, I accept that for now it is the reality.

I don't care what the religion of a politician is and it shouldn't matter anyway the state should be neutral on such matters. Now please explain your "perfect analogy", in a month or so you will get the chance to democratically choose who you want to run the country and therefore formally express your opposition to FG. I'm totally against the catholic church (or any religion) running publicly funded schools, when do I formally get to express my opposition in the form of a vote and when did the country actually vote for the current situation?

Ps, just to be clear I personally don't want a vote on religion in schools anyway, the majority should never rule in cases of human rights but I would love you to explain your "perfect analogy".

xband · 31-12-2015 03:54PM

Also why oh why do people thing the C of I schools are an alternative for non religious parents ?!!?

Basically we've got Catholic Schools and C of I which is more or less the same thing just with a slightly different take on a couple of things.

Only Educate Together is even remotely close to being a normal public school system.

In a functioning, modern country state education services that are open to all are considered a fundamental right.

Ireland is also making itself unattractive to inward investors and people with high skills who want to move here because of this.

I know two couples who opted to go elsewhere rather than take up IT jobs here because of lack of public schools. They're now in the US.

Also can you imagine the uproar if Trinity were to pursue a similar policy to most of our schools in 21st century Ireland and gave you 200 bonus CAO points for providing a C of I baptismal cert?!?

There would be uproar and rightly so!

So why is it somehow acceptable in school, yet not in college/university not in employment.

Certain companies in past used to reserve jobs for their faith communities. Was that acceptable ?!

Meanwhile UCC and NUIG are secular universities since their foundation and nobody seems to think they're incapable of providing very high quality education without any need for mass, prayers, statues or anything else.

There are a lot of double standards in place and primary/secondary school getting endless exceptional case treatment.

The Bishop Basher · 31-12-2015 04:03PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I know a nonbeliever who identifies himself as a 'catholic', now what he calls himself is none of my business but the criteria these days seems highly subjective.

Agreed. See my post above RE: Atheists. I have no doubt these labels are misused regularly by all sides.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

The problem is though that most of the '84%' were given a menu with only 1 option, to quote the great Homer Simpson = "What if we picked the wrong religion? Every week we're just making God madder and madder"

I don't buy this. I grew up with 1 option. I chose the second one. We have free will. Whether we chose to use it or not is another matter.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I don't care what the religion of a politician is and it shouldn't matter anyway the state should be neutral on such matters. Now please explain your "perfect analogy", in a month or so you will get the chance to democratically choose who you want to run the country and therefore formally express your opposition to FG. I'm totally against the catholic church (or any religion) running publicly funded schools, when do I formally get to express my opposition in the form of a vote and when did the country actually vote for the current situation?

Once again, there are dreams and there's reality. Just because the current reality doesn't suit you, doesn't make it any less of a reality. If you want change the reality, you're going to have to get out there and do it.

The Bishop Basher · 31-12-2015 04:05PM

xband wrote: »

Also why oh why do people thing the C of I schools are an alternative for non religious parents ?!!?

Basically we've got Catholic Schools and C of I which is more or less the same thing just with a slightly different take on a couple of things.

It's a different ethos. Much more liberal and free thinking for the most part with a lot less dogma and interference in the daily lives of those that follow the faith.

But it's an interesting point. Are they genuinely non religious or are they just running away from the RC church ? Who knows, it'll be different for everyone. Just another layer of complexity.

One eyed Jack · 31-12-2015 04:06PM

Mary63 wrote: »

The problem is the catholic schools in high demand areas are full of catholic children.You don't expect Irish schools or Muslim schools or Protestant schools to turn away their cohort just because they haven't places for non muslim children for example.Why should the catholic school management be expected to do this either.

Why should the local catholic school turn away parish children to accommodate atheists who are going to whinge every time a child blesses herself.Do you think the catholic parents whether they practice or not and that is entirely between themselves and their God,want to have atheists parents wearing a track to the school moaning because their child is exposed to religion,the principal and teachers have better things to do than facilitate pandering to this nonsense.A few prayers will never do any child a bit of harm.

That's a thought that seems to cause a few parents here quite a degree of distress, to the point where at least one poster claimed that they would be disappointed if their child ever displayed religious beliefs, and they would feel that they had failed as a parent!

(Very reminiscent of the kind of parents that say they would be disappointed if their child was gay, and they'd feel they had failed as a parent)

I think some posters here are missing the point that by enrolling their children in schools with a religious ethos, they as parents are expected to contribute to the school community. The school are perfectly entitled to discriminate against parents who have no interest in contributing to, and maintaining the ethos of the school. It's one of the reasons I did not enroll my child in the local ET school - because I had no interest as a parent in contributing to the school.

I still support the idea of a secular education system, and I have supported a petition for a local ET secondary school in my area, because I understand that there are other parents will want to make use of it. That's really what needs to happen in this country - Government needs to fund the building of new schools to accommodate parents who do not want to send their children to schools with a religious ethos. That's the whole point of a secular education system, is to offer parents more choices, not to restrict their choices by trying to have Government close down schools with a religious ethos, or trying to restrict schools with a religious ethos from maintaining their ethos.

Huntergonzo · 31-12-2015 04:09PM

Mary63 wrote: »

A few prayers will never do any child a bit of harm.

No but child rape will and the church is very good at that and even better at covering it up.

xband · 31-12-2015 04:13PM

Swanner wrote: »

It's a different ethos. Much more liberal and free thinking for the most part with a lot less dogma and interference in the daily lives of those that follow the faith.

But it's an interesting point. Are they genuinely non religious or are they just running away from the RC church ? Who knows, it'll be different for everyone. Just another layer of complexity.

It's somewhat more liberal but it can be pretty dogmatic too. I'm familiar with both communities and their similarities are *far* bigger than their differences.

You've still got religious assemblies and so on in many Protestant schools and plenty of other things like RE classes.

They're still not fully inclusive public schools in anything approaching any modern sense.

One eyed Jack · 31-12-2015 04:16PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And yet we approved marriage equality. There's been a survey a few weeks ago where 40% of respondents said they wanted a secular education. You, frostyjacks, OEJ, and the Legatus Lackeys don't have a "vast majority".

Actually we do, if you're keeping up with the "progress" of the Forum on Pluralism and Patronage you'd know this - on paper, divestment seemed like the perfect solution and everything would go smoothly.

In practice however, parents at local level in the areas which were identified for divestment have said "Nuh uh, not happening on our watch mate!". They are very much opposed to the idea.

I'm not sure why you think a person who identifies as religious, couldn't also be secular, and be able to tell the difference between civil and religious matters. Does that go back to the earlier study with the amazing findings that children are children?

Huntergonzo · 31-12-2015 04:18PM

Swanner wrote: »

Agreed. See my post above RE: Atheists. I have no doubt these labels are misused regularly by all sides.

Then how do we trust that '84% is a genuine figure, you must if you're referring to it.

Swanner wrote: »

I don't buy this. I grew up with 1 option. I chose the second one. We have free will. Whether we chose to use it or not is another matter.

Well good for you, but sadly I think a lot of people aren't capable of free thought, they just go along with what they were told since they were children.

Swanner wrote: »

Once again, there are dreams and there's reality. Just because the current reality doesn't suit you, doesn't make it any less of a reality. If you want change the reality, you're going to have to get out there and do it.

Or in other words you realize you're analogy is no good and you can't defend it so you're not even going to try, fair enough, we'll park that one so.

kylith · 31-12-2015 04:26PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Hmmm, you seem to have completely missed the point. First of all, it is not religious or fantastical stories, it is religious and fantastical stories. They were given religious stories and they were also given fantastical stories that were not religious in nature.

You second line is actually kind of stupid, and this is what shows you completely missed the point. These children believed the religious AND the fantastical stories where real stories. That is the point. To be frank, the result seems so obvious, what else would one expect? If you teach children to believe fantastical stories that happen to be religious in nature are you really surprised that those same children happen to also believe fantastical stories that aren't religious?

If you chip away and suppress a child's critical thinking and, at the same time, fill it with sh1t like believing stuff without evidence is a positive trait, what, exactly, do you expect to produce?

Also, what does "separating fact from fiction in real stories" even mean?

MrP

And then we wonder how crap like homeopathy, crystal healing, mediums, psychics and the rest of that nonsense gets a hold. And some people say that religious stories do no harm to critical thinking and reasoning abilities, and that adults are well able to tell factual from fictional.

Mary63 wrote: »

A few prayers will never do any child a bit of harm.

You'd be happy for your child to spend half an hour every day being told how Allah is the only god, and to spend a few minutes in the morning, evening, and before and after lunch chanting about how great Allah is, would you? After all, it won't do them any harm, will it?

Shrap · 31-12-2015 04:30PM

kylith wrote: »

And then we wonder how crap like homeopathy, crystal healing, mediums, psychics and the rest of that nonsense gets a hold. And some people say that religious stories do no harm to critical thinking and reasoning abilities, and that adults are well able to tell factual from fictional.

So true.

You'd be happy for your child to spend half an hour every day being told how Allah is the only god, and to spend a few minutes in the morning, evening, and before and after lunch chanting about how great Allah is, would you? After all, it won't do them any harm, will it?

I wouldn't bother going there though based on Mary's contributions in t'other thread. If you recall, she claimed to have no difficulty with her son making a bar mitzvah if it was in his educational interests and has no difficulty in general with lying about a child's baptism in order to get them into a better school.

Mary63 · 31-12-2015 04:45PM

If my child was in a muslim school then no I wouldn't have a problem with prayers to Allah,I would have informed myself as to what he would be learning prior to starting in the muslim school.I certainly wouldn't be telling the teacher or principal how to do their job,I can only imagine the response I would get objecting to muslim teaching in a muslim school.

The Bishop Basher · 31-12-2015 04:46PM

xband wrote: »

It's somewhat more liberal but it can be pretty dogmatic too. I'm familiar with both communities and their similarities are *far* bigger than their differences.

When you strip all the bull**** away you'll find that's the case for almost all religions. The basic message is remarkably similar.

One eyed Jack · 31-12-2015 04:54PM

kylith wrote: »

And then we wonder how crap like homeopathy, crystal healing, mediums, psychics and the rest of that nonsense gets a hold. And some people say that religious stories do no harm to critical thinking and reasoning abilities, and that adults are well able to tell factual from fictional.

Not really tbh. All that is, is people looking for answers. They don't even have to be religious. Just look at the anti-vax crowd - in spite of mountains of scientific evidence to the contrary, there are parents who still believe that they know best for their children and they won't vaccinate their children.

You'd be happy for your child to spend half an hour every day being told how Allah is the only god, and to spend a few minutes in the morning, evening, and before and after lunch chanting about how great Allah is, would you? After all, it won't do them any harm, will it?

There's an easy and practical solution to all this - remember to pack a pair of ear defenders and a blindfold in your children's schoolbag in the morning - see no evil, hear no evil, something like that anyway, at least that way their critical thinking and reasoning facilities aren't threatened by exposing them to material that might actually require them to engage their critical thinking and reasoning facilities.

Censoring people from ideas you don't agree with always works, doesn't it?

Huntergonzo · 31-12-2015 05:15PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's an easy and practical solution to all this - remember to pack a pair of ear defenders and a blindfold in your children's schoolbag in the morning - see no evil, hear no evil, something like that anyway, at least that way their critical thinking and reasoning facilities aren't threatened by exposing them to material that might actually require them to engage their critical thinking and reasoning facilities.

Stick on your blindfolds and ear defenders and then get down on your knees and pray children.........sounds like the catholic way alright!

My advice would be, whatever you do don't open your mouth!

ABC101 · 31-12-2015 05:16PM

MrPudding wrote: »

Hmmm, you seem to have completely missed the point. First of all, it is not religious or fantastical stories, it is religious and fantastical stories. They were given religious stories and they were also given fantastical stories that were not religious in nature.

You second line is actually kind of stupid, and this is what shows you completely missed the point. These children believed the religious AND the fantastical stories where real stories. That is the point. To be frank, the result seems so obvious, what else would one expect? If you teach children to believe fantastical stories that happen to be religious in nature are you really surprised that those same children happen to also believe fantastical stories that aren't religious?

If you chip away and suppress a child's critical thinking and, at the same time, fill it with sh1t like believing stuff without evidence is a positive trait, what, exactly, do you expect to produce?

Also, what does "separating fact from fiction in real stories" even mean?

MrP

The key word here is "story".

Statements are being made to the effect that people who hold a belief.... are unable to separate fact from fiction.

Reminds me of the scene in Fr Ted.... with Fr Doogle and the spider baby etc... and Fr Ted has to explain reality and what's in his head etc.

So let me ask a question.

If 100 children (of religious faith) watched Star Wars...would they believe that Star Wars is fact or science fiction?

Would the results be any different from 100 children who had never been exposed to any form / type of religion?

Shrap · 31-12-2015 05:18PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Statements are being made to the effect that people who hold a belief.... are unable to separate fact from fiction.

Reminds me of the scene in Fr Ted.... with Fr Doogle and the spider baby etc... and Fr Ted has to explain reality and what's in his head etc.

The irony is strong in this one...... :pac:

looksee · 31-12-2015 06:51PM

xband wrote: »

Also why oh why do people thing the C of I schools are an alternative for non religious parents ?!!?

Basically we've got Catholic Schools and C of I which is more or less the same thing just with a slightly different take on a couple of things.

Only Educate Together is even remotely close to being a normal public school system.

In a functioning, modern country state education services that are open to all are considered a fundamental right.

Ireland is also making itself unattractive to inward investors and people with high skills who want to move here because of this.

I know two couples who opted to go elsewhere rather than take up IT jobs here because of lack of public schools. They're now in the US.

Also can you imagine the uproar if Trinity were to pursue a similar policy to most of our schools in 21st century Ireland and gave you 200 bonus CAO points for providing a C of I baptismal cert?!?

There would be uproar and rightly so!

So why is it somehow acceptable in school, yet not in college/university not in employment.

Certain companies in past used to reserve jobs for their faith communities. Was that acceptable ?!

Meanwhile UCC and NUIG are secular universities since their foundation and nobody seems to think they're incapable of providing very high quality education without any need for mass, prayers, statues or anything else.

There are a lot of double standards in place and primary/secondary school getting endless exceptional case treatment.

Its the 'give me a child until he is 7' idea. If they have got as far as 3rd level with no religious indoctrination, it is too late.

One eyed Jack · 31-12-2015 07:12PM

looksee wrote: »

Its the 'give me a child until he is 7' idea. If they have got as far as 3rd level with no religious indoctrination, it is too late.

Not too late to be indoctrinated with plenty of other wacky ideologies though...

(assuming they manage to avoid Scientology and Islam)

eviltwin · 31-12-2015 07:28PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not too late to be indoctrinated with plenty of other wacky ideologies though...

(assuming they manage to avoid Scientology and Islam)

Adults who get involved heavily into religion tend to have issues don't they. Not all of them obviously but I'd say the mental health of the Irish branch of scientology would keep a therapist in business for years. I personally think if you grow up without religion and you are a happy and well adjusted person you won't gravitate to one.

ABC101 · 31-12-2015 07:34PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Adults who get involved heavily into religion tend to have issues don't they. Not all of them obviously but I'd say the mental health of the Irish branch of scientology would keep a therapist in business for years. I personally think if you grow up without religion and you are a happy and well adjusted person you won't gravitate to one.

The trouble with happiness... is that it can be elusive.

Many people go through life... doing everything right... and then boom... they lose their job, get thrown on the scrap heap etc etc etc.

Life has its ups and unfortunately it also has its downs!!

But it is important to strive towards personal contentment / happiness, what ever your background.

Huntergonzo · 31-12-2015 07:36PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not too late to be indoctrinated with plenty of other wacky ideologies though...

(assuming they manage to avoid Scientology and Islam)

In fairness them religions are no more wacky than the catholic story about yer man Jesus who was born in a stable of a women who swears blind she's a 'virgin' (ha, whore, wouldn't mind giving Mary one meself though, she looks pretty good in some of them paintings) and when you take communion you're literally eating the little cúnt......thought that eating human flesh was cannabilism by the way, not good!

Ps, honestly shouldn't anybody who hands out or receives communion be arrested on the spot!

eviltwin · 31-12-2015 07:39PM

ABC101 wrote: »

The trouble with happiness... is that it can be elusive.

Many people go through life... doing everything right... and then boom... they lose their job, get thrown on the scrap heap etc etc etc.

Life has its ups and unfortunately it also has its downs!!

But it is important to strive towards personal contentment / happiness, what ever your background.

Yep life will throw you some curveballs but I don't think the healthy reaction to that is to join a religion. I think religion can exploit the vulnerable. I've one friend who changed faith as an adult but it happened organically as she learned about the religion over a few years. That's fair enough.

The Bishop Basher · 31-12-2015 08:04PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Yep life will throw you some curveballs but I don't think the healthy reaction to that is to join a religion.

Maybe not for you which is fine. Why not for others though ?

One eyed Jack · 31-12-2015 08:14PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Adults who get involved heavily into religion tend to have issues don't they. Not all of them obviously but I'd say the mental health of the Irish branch of scientology would keep a therapist in business for years. I personally think if you grow up without religion and you are a happy and well adjusted person you won't gravitate to one.

I'd say you were fairly on the ball tbh. It's one of those chicken and egg things I think where someone who is experiencing mental health issues can certainly go looking for answers in all the wrong places. Then depending upon the level of mental health difficulties, they can veer towards the more extreme, fundamentalist end of the scale.

I agree with you too that if a person grows up without a religion and they are happy and well adjusted, it's unlikely they'll graduate towards a religion.

eviltwin · 31-12-2015 08:14PM

Swanner wrote: »

Maybe not for you which is fine. Why not for others though ?

When your vulnerable? I can understand someone seeking something to give their life meaning, to help them feel better but religion shouldn't recruit the damaged. Totally different to seek support from a church you already belong to but if someone is bereaved, lonely, hurt etc becoming a Catholic, Muslim etc is not the solution.

What to tell kids when they ask?

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