Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

IrishTrajan · 06-12-2015 07:43PM

nokia69 wrote: »

well maybe the west should give Assad some "regular bombs" then he can be just as good as the saudis who are bombing Yemen

I'd definitely be in favour of the West giving some 200lb bombs to Assad and the every other one of the belligerent parties in this conflict, but we probably mean different things.

kettlehead · 06-12-2015 09:18PM

Exit polls suggest that FN received 41.7% of the vote. Live results here - http://www.france24.com/en/20151206-liveblog-french-regional-elections-2015

Nodin · 06-12-2015 09:29PM

kettlehead wrote: »

Exit polls suggest that FN received 41.7% of the vote. Live results here - http://www.france24.com/en/20151206-liveblog-french-regional-elections-2015

30.6% according to that article.

KingBrian2 · 06-12-2015 11:22PM

kettlehead wrote: »

Exit polls suggest that FN received 41.7% of the vote. Live results here - http://www.france24.com/en/20151206-liveblog-french-regional-elections-2015

The Far right are becoming popular but also insulated from the rest of French society. The people living in those areas are living in a atmosphere of hostility, the people i'm far more concerned about are the gvt in power. They just went and suspended the laws that make France a leading power. Maybe Hollande really does not believe bombing Syria is going to save Europe merely a publicity exercise. Ignoring the European court of human rights and asking for leeway from fiscal policy will have much more of a dramatic impact. Should Greece get its economy into growth mode France will still be in the doldrums.

France needs to give those Muslims well paid jobs and keeping them from falling into the clutches of violent extremists. I don't know how this will be resolved but focusing on Europe is the priority and not on causing wars overseas and supporting proxies powers. France is a major power and it risks pulling the entire continent into a battle that is not our fight. I don't see why Christians have to be fighting in Muslim countries not to mention atheists and Anglican and Lutherans fighting in Shi'ite and Sunni countries.

JPNelsforearm · 06-12-2015 11:27PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The Far right are becoming popular but also insulated from the rest of French society. The people living in those areas are living in a atmosphere of hostility, the people i'm far more concerned about are the gvt in power. They just went and suspended the laws that make France a leading power. Maybe Hollande really does not believe bombing Syria is going to save Europe merely a publicity exercise. Ignoring the European court of human rights and asking for leeway from fiscal policy will have much more of a dramatic impact. Should Greece get its economy into growth mode France will still be in the doldrums.

France needs to give those Muslims well paid jobs and keeping them from falling into the clutches of violent extremists. I don't know how this will be resolved but focusing on Europe is the priority and not on causing wars overseas and supporting proxies powers. France is a major power and it risks pulling the entire continent into a battle that is not our fight. I don't see why Christians have to be fighting in Muslim countries not to mention atheists and Anglican and Lutherans fighting in Shi'ite and Sunni countries.

Yes, open borders and endless welfare, what a recipe for success

KingBrian2 · 06-12-2015 11:35PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Yes, open borders and endless welfare, what a recipe for success

Nobody well provided your not with the war crowd is talking about open borders with Arab countries.

volchitsa · 07-12-2015 01:06AM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

France is a major power and it risks pulling the entire continent into a battle that is not our fight. I don't see why Christians have to be fighting in Muslim countries not to mention atheists and Anglican and Lutherans fighting in Shi'ite and Sunni countries.

And here was me thinking ISIS were a consequence of the USA and the U.K. (Helped in our own little way by secret renditions etc via Shannon) invading first Afghanistan and then Iraq, a country France, iirc, refused to go intom much to the chagrin of the Usa who called them surrender monkeys and renamed French fries into freedom fries to punish them.

But no, it was still the dastardly French wot done it, by only going and bombing Syria just because some Muslim extremists had assassinated cartoonists in cold blood in Paris, such a little thing to react to really.

opiniated · 07-12-2015 08:36PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The Far right are becoming popular but also insulated from the rest of French society. The people living in those areas are living in a atmosphere of hostility, the people i'm far more concerned about are the gvt in power. They just went and suspended the laws that make France a leading power. Maybe Hollande really does not believe bombing Syria is going to save Europe merely a publicity exercise. Ignoring the European court of human rights and asking for leeway from fiscal policy will have much more of a dramatic impact. Should Greece get its economy into growth mode France will still be in the doldrums.

France needs to give those Muslims well paid jobs and keeping them from falling into the clutches of violent extremists. I don't know how this will be resolved but focusing on Europe is the priority and not on causing wars overseas and supporting proxies powers. France is a major power and it risks pulling the entire continent into a battle that is not our fight. I don't see why Christians have to be fighting in Muslim countries not to mention atheists and Anglican and Lutherans fighting in Shi'ite and Sunni countries.

I'd agree that Muslims in deprived areas need help re: education, housing, etc.
Positive discrimination re: jobs is not something I'd agree with, because,
A: It's not as simple as "Give them a good job, and they'll be grand!". Some ISIS members are from middle class backgrounds, so, where poverty is a fertile breeding ground, unfortunately, lack of poverty does not guarantee that these youths will not join ISIS.

B: If you discriminate positively for Muslims, then you discriminate negatively towards other groups.

volchitsa wrote: »

And here was me thinking ISIS were a consequence of the USA and the U.K. (Helped in our own little way by secret renditions etc via Shannon) invading first Afghanistan and then Iraq, a country France, iirc, refused to go intom much to the chagrin of the Usa who called them surrender monkeys and renamed French fries into freedom fries to punish them.

But no, it was still the dastardly French wot done it, by only going and bombing Syria just because some Muslim extremists had assassinated cartoonists in cold blood in Paris, such a little thing to react to really.

ISIS are a consequence of a bunch of power hungry, sadistic brutes getting enough power and money to brainwash the youths they're using as cannon fodder.

Foreign policy may provide plenty of propaganda for their war machine, and I would personally think that interference from the West has done more harm than good in the ME, but, at the end of the day, the animals who lead ISIS do so to further their own power network.

To blame anything else, without recognising that fact, is ignoring the core of the problem, imo.

KingBrian2 · 07-12-2015 10:01PM

opiniated wrote: »

I'd agree that Muslims in deprived areas need help re: education, housing, etc.
Positive discrimination re: jobs is not something I'd agree with, because,
A: It's not as simple as "Give them a good job, and they'll be grand!". Some ISIS members are from middle class backgrounds, so, where poverty is a fertile breeding ground, unfortunately, lack of poverty does not guarantee that these youths will not join ISIS.

B: If you discriminate positively for Muslims, then you discriminate negatively towards other groups.

ISIS are a consequence of a bunch of power hungry, sadistic brutes getting enough power and money to brainwash the youths they're using as cannon fodder.

Foreign policy may provide plenty of propaganda for their war machine, and I would personally think that interference from the West has done more harm than good in the ME, but, at the end of the day, the animals who lead ISIS do so to further their own power network.

To blame anything else, without recognising that fact, is ignoring the core of the problem, imo.

A core part of the problem is that these groups are inclined to take up arms against their gvt under the accurate belief they will receive financial and political backing from external actors. People are convinced their cause is righteous.

leavingirl · 07-12-2015 10:13PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A core part of the problem is that these groups are inclined to take up arms against their gvt under the accurate belief they will receive financial and political backing from external actors. People are convinced their cause is righteous.

And they hate our freedom!

Nodin · 07-12-2015 10:14PM

opiniated wrote: »

I'd agree that Muslims in deprived areas need help re: education, housing, etc.
Positive discrimination re: jobs is not something I'd agree with, because,
A: It's not as simple as "Give them a good job, and they'll be grand!". Some ISIS members are from middle class backgrounds, so, where poverty is a fertile breeding ground, unfortunately, lack of poverty does not guarantee that these youths will not join ISIS.

B: If you discriminate positively for Muslims, then you discriminate negatively towards other groups.

.

C - "positive discrimination" would be problematic if not illegal under French law. 'Unconstitutional' possibly.

opiniated · 08-12-2015 12:04PM

[QUOTE=KingBrian2;97999780]A core part of the problem is that these groups are inclined to take up arms against their gvt under the accurate belief they will receive financial and political backing from external actors. People are convinced their cause is righteous.[/QUOTE]

True. The question remains as to the motives of the external actors, though.

I'm not at all convinced that they believe their cause is righteous.

I watched a video titled "To the sons of Jews" the last day.
(Be warned:It is absolutely the most gruesome, sickening, thing I have ever made the mistake of clicking into!).

These"righteous" piles of stinking manure were shown calling out several kids (the youngest didn't look any older than 8 or 9) - who then proceeded to shoot "spies" in the head. All graphically recorded, for some sick, warped, purpose.
The "piece de resistance" was the last child, who also looked to be the youngest, beheading a man.

If there is anything remotely "righteous" about both child abuse, and barbarity - I'm darned if I can see what it is!

And these sickos call other people "infidel".

:mad:

I don't know what warped reasoning is being used by Daesh - but righteousness has absolutely nothing to do with it, in any mans language, or moral code.

BoatMad · 10-12-2015 12:41PM

Originally Posted by volchitsa View Post
And here was me thinking ISIS were a consequence of the USA and the U.K. (Helped in our own little way by secret renditions etc via Shannon) invading first Afghanistan and then Iraq, a country France, iirc, refused to go intom much to the chagrin of the Usa who called them surrender monkeys and renamed French fries into freedom fries to punish them.

no fundamentally ISIS is a consequence of the Sunni Shia divide as IS has targeted Shia apostates far more then any other group.

The US invasion merely provided the spark that lit the flame

BoatMad · 10-12-2015 12:41PM

Originally Posted by volchitsa View Post
And here was me thinking ISIS were a consequence of the USA and the U.K. (Helped in our own little way by secret renditions etc via Shannon) invading first Afghanistan and then Iraq, a country France, iirc, refused to go intom much to the chagrin of the Usa who called them surrender monkeys and renamed French fries into freedom fries to punish them.

no fundamentally ISIS is a consequence of the Sunni Shia divide as IS has targeted Shia apostates far more then any other group.

The US invasion merely provided the spark that lit the flame

ISIS are a consequence of a bunch of power hungry, sadistic brutes getting enough power and money to brainwash the youths they're using as cannon fodder.

Thats a convenient soundbite, which has elements of truth ( AL-Zaqwari, was a career jihadist, with a particularly brutal streak), but its not the complete truth by any means

KingBrian2 · 10-12-2015 10:48PM

BoatMad wrote: »

no fundamentally ISIS is a consequence of the Sunni Shia divide as IS has targeted Shia apostates far more then any other group.

The US invasion merely provided the spark that lit the flame

Finally someone is talking sense. This is religious war but your spot on the money. This is a internal Islamic holy war as much to do with the two dominate strains of Islam. They both take Islam too literally and they are destroying all other religions Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhist and the non religious to show how religious they truly are. In their outburst of sectarianism they hit out at other denominations while it is their Islamic co-religionists we see them emulating. Two extreme versions of Islam battling one another and forcing more extreme versions of Islam to appear.

opiniated · 10-12-2015 10:58PM

BoatMad wrote: »

no fundamentally ISIS is a consequence of the Sunni Shia divide as IS has targeted Shia apostates far more then any other group.

The US invasion merely provided the spark that lit the flame

Thats a convenient soundbite, which has elements of truth ( AL-Zaqwari, was a career jihadist, with a particularly brutal streak), but its not the complete truth by any means

That's a statement I've never heard directed at me before.:D:D

I've often been accused of calling a spade a spade, but "soundbite" is one I never expected to hear.

I am aware that both the history of the ME, and, indeed, of Islam, is complicated. I would agree that there are certainly many facets to the current political situation.

However, I stand by my belief that Daesh is led, funded, and controlled by, a bunch of power-hungry, sadistic creeps, who wouldn't know the meaning of the word "righteous", and certainly are not being in the least righteous in the way they set about achieving their political, or religious, goals.

BoatMad · 11-12-2015 02:30PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Finally someone is talking sense. This is religious war but your spot on the money. This is a internal Islamic holy war as much to do with the two dominate strains of Islam. They both take Islam too literally and they are destroying all other religions Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhist and the non religious to show how religious they truly are. In their outburst of sectarianism they hit out at other denominations while it is their Islamic co-religionists we see them emulating. Two extreme versions of Islam battling one another and forcing more extreme versions of Islam to appear.

actually IS does not regard christians for example as apostates ( you merely have to convert ) , it however regards Shias so and deserving of being exterminated

BoatMad · 11-12-2015 02:34PM

opiniated wrote: »

However, I stand by my belief that Daesh is led, funded, and controlled by, a bunch of power-hungry, sadistic creeps, who wouldn't know the meaning of the word "righteous", and certainly are not being in the least righteous in the way they set about achieving their political, or religious, goals.

power-hungry , check
sadisitic check
creeps , well thats an opinion

"certainly are not being in the least righteous in the way they set about achieving their political, or religious, goals"

the trouble with " righteous :" is its always in the eye of the believer.

Its not a good moniker to apply here. the crusades were clearly seen as righteous , the invasion of Hibernia by the english under the popes orders was seen as " righteous "

The people on the receiving side ten to see it differently

ISIL as opposed to ISIS , is a hodge podge of organisations that are taking advantage of the chaos

anyway ISIL as they know it will be subjugated by the west reasonably soon, of course IS Version 2,0 will just appear. ( with different aims )

opiniated · 11-12-2015 02:42PM

BoatMad wrote: »

power-hungry , check
sadisitic check
creeps , well thats an opinion

"certainly are not being in the least righteous in the way they set about achieving their political, or religious, goals"

the trouble with " righteous :" is its always in the eye of the believer.

Its not a good moniker to apply here. the crusades were clearly seen as righteous , the invasion of Hibernia by the english under the popes orders was seen as " righteous "

The people on the receiving side ten to see it differently

ISIL as opposed to ISIS , is a hodge podge of organisations that are taking advantage of the chaos

anyway ISIL as they know it will be subjugated by the west reasonably soon, of course IS Version 2,0 will just appear. ( with different aims )

Neither the crusades, nor the invasion of Hibernia, (or any other Country, for that matter) were/are righteous.

Killing people, whether by legal, or illegal means, is not righteous, as most people understand the word.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that IS, in one form or another, will be around for quite some time, hopefully in a less barbaric form, though.

BoatMad · 11-12-2015 02:47PM

opiniated wrote: »

Neither the crusades, nor the invasion of Hibernia, (or any other Country, for that matter) were/are righteous.

Killing people, whether by legal, or illegal means, is not righteous, as most people understand the word.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that IS, in one form or another, will be around for quite some time, hopefully in a less barbaric form, though.

I was merely illustrating that applying " righteous " is a nonsense.

Killing people is often " justified " , but such justification is of course, clearly biased.

hopefully in a less barbaric for

not in the next 50 years Im afraid, too much polarisation, the next to burst into flames will be Saudia Arabia

Dohnjoe · 11-12-2015 02:53PM

BoatMad wrote: »

anyway ISIL as they know it will be subjugated by the westworld reasonably soon

Fixed that for you

Also they won't ever be "defeated", it's an ideology. However they can have their military power, wealth, operations, members, etc depleted in a conventional sense

BoatMad · 11-12-2015 02:56PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Fixed that for you

Also they won't ever be "defeated", it's an ideology. However they can have their military power, wealth, operations, members, etc depleted in a conventional sense

thanks, world/west in reality its US military assets that will subdue them , irrespective of whose actually pointing that asset at IS.

never said they would be defeated , subdued yes, IS isn't a coherent organisation , its full of hangers on, extremists within extremists , its will fracture and disperse, what will take its place remains to be seen

WarZ · 11-12-2015 02:58PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Finally someone is talking sense. This is religious war but your spot on the money. This is a internal Islamic holy war as much to do with the two dominate strains of Islam. They both take Islam too literally and they are destroying all other religions Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhist and the non religious to show how religious they truly are. In their outburst of sectarianism they hit out at other denominations while it is their Islamic co-religionists we see them emulating. Two extreme versions of Islam battling one another and forcing more extreme versions of Islam to appear.

It has nothing to do with religon. It is to do with regional power. Iran (the biggest threat to the Arab states) happens to be Shia and the Gulf states are Sunni. All jostle for influence in the M.E. the Shia and Sunni divide is just a convenient way for both to use proxies to project influence.

BoatMad · 11-12-2015 03:04PM

WarZ wrote: »

It has nothing to do with religon. It is to do with regional power. Iran (the biggest threat to the Arab states) happens to be Shia and the Gulf states are Sunni. All jostle for influence in the M.E. the Shia and Sunni divide is just a convenient way for both to use proxies to project influence.

NO , thats not what it is. That might be described as the secular position overlaying the whole area.

The fact is that IS, particularly was created by AL-Zaqwari to target Shia apostates , he did so in a particularly brutal way that become IS's stock in trade. This went on until he stood in the way of a big US missile .

However IS then capitalised on the chaos in Iraq and subsequently Syria to convince SUnnis to ally with it and for Jihadists to fight for it,.

It has no real interest in the " West ", other then the more chaos the west causes in the ME, the more supporters are drawn into IS's net. that why they target the west, to force intervention and create more chaos.

This is entirely different to Al-Quaida , who believed that the West was the " great satan " and responsible for all manner of ills.

FatherTed · 11-12-2015 03:30PM

I've thought all along all this IS stuff and previously Al-Qaeda is down to people living sh*t lives in a crap place with no prospects. They see people in the west living relatively good lives(compared to themselves anyway) and they cannot obtain that. And that goes for people likes these guys from Paris and Brussels who were involved in the Paris attacks. If they all had good jobs and a good life they wouldn't even have the time to get all worked up about IS. Is my view too simplistic on this?

BattleCorp · 11-12-2015 03:33PM

FatherTed wrote: »

I've thought all along all this IS stuff and previously Al-Qaeda is down to people living sh*t lives in a crap place with no prospects. They see people in the west living relatively good lives(compared to themselves anyway) and they cannot obtain that. And that goes for people likes these guys from Paris and Brussels who were involved in the Paris attacks. If they all had good jobs and a good life they wouldn't even have the time to get all worked up about IS. Is my view too simplistic on this?

I wouldn't go along with the whole "if they had good lives, they wouldn't be killing us" line of thinking.

The guy in America had an ok life. He had a government job, normal standard of living etc.

WarZ · 11-12-2015 03:38PM

BoatMad wrote: »

NO , thats not what it is. That might be described as the secular position overlaying the whole area.

The fact is that IS, particularly was created by AL-Zaqwari to target Shia apostates , he did so in a particularly brutal way that become IS's stock in trade. This went on until he stood in the way of a big US missile .

However IS then capitalised on the chaos in Iraq and subsequently Syria to convince SUnnis to ally with it and for Jihadists to fight for it,.

It has no real interest in the " West ", other then the more chaos the west causes in the ME, the more supporters are drawn into IS's net. that why they target the west, to force intervention and create more chaos.

This is entirely different to Al-Quaida , who believed that the West was the " great satan " and responsible for all manner of ills.

What I said is exactly what it is. You went off on a bit of a tangent that was in no way related to what I posted.

If you honestly think the conflict in the Middle East is about different religious sects and not a jostle of power between the Arab states and Iran then I don't think I should waste any more time replying to you. That is fairly basic stuff.

KingBrian2 · 11-12-2015 10:33PM

WarZ wrote: »

It has nothing to do with religon. It is to do with regional power. Iran (the biggest threat to the Arab states) happens to be Shia and the Gulf states are Sunni. All jostle for influence in the M.E. the Shia and Sunni divide is just a convenient way for both to use proxies to project influence.

ISIS is a manifestation of US foreign policy of interventionism. Consecutive administrations have held to this policy resulting in the formation of these terrorist organisations.

ilkhanid · 12-12-2015 11:39AM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Finally someone is talking sense. This is religious war but your spot on the money. This is a internal Islamic holy war as much to do with the two dominate strains of Islam. They both take Islam too literally and they are destroying all other religions Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhist and the non religious to show how religious they truly are. In their outburst of sectarianism they hit out at other denominations while it is their Islamic co-religionists we see them emulating. Two extreme versions of Islam battling one another and forcing more extreme versions of Islam to appear.

Going a little too far there. There is a possibility of cooperation with the Shias, none with the Salafists.

BoatMad wrote: »

actually IS does not regard christians for example as apostates ( you merely have to convert ) , it however regards Shias so and deserving of being exterminated

In fact, Christians don't have to convert, just pay a tax (and keep their heads down in terror and accept a lifestyle of permanent humiliation and subjugation).

KingBrian2 · 12-12-2015 07:59PM

ilkhanid wrote: »

Going a little too far there. There is a possibility of cooperation with the Shias, none with the Salafists.

In fact, Christians don't have to convert, just pay a tax (and keep their heads down in terror and accept a lifestyle of permanent humiliation and subjugation).

Shi'a's have been the largest communities in Iraq, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to be targeted by Salafists and Wahhabis. Christian communities have also been targeted in Syria, Egypt and Lebanon. So the notion that religion does not play a crucial role in sponsoring these organisations is untrue.

Religion while not the only factor is a major factor and combined with that is US insistence on interfering in the politics of the region makes these organisations more deadly. Intercommunity dialogue between the dispirit branches of Islam is desperately needed and exclude those that preach violence.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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