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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #6752
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    21% of Syrians support ISIS. They are not all innocent little lambs/doctors/engineers.

    http://metrocosm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/what-muslims-really-think-of-isis.png


  • #6753
    seanaway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    ISIS controls an area larger than Scotland, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of innocent civilians in that part.

    But if the UK (and the rest) focus their bombings on oil refineries, known ISIS military targets,... then i don't see any problem with it.

    Question remains how easy that will be.

    True. many of the truck drivers are civilians. That's why leaflets were dropped to tell them they would shortly be bombed and to get away.

    How easy to bomb refineries? Easy. They can't be moved, unlike trucks.


  • #6754
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    kettlehead wrote: »
    21% of Syrians support ISIS. They are not all innocent little lambs/doctors/engineers.

    http://metrocosm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/what-muslims-really-think-of-isis.png

    Well, considering they will kill you if you protest then I'd say they will be 'popular' yeah...

    http://aranews.net/2015/12/gunmen-kill-a-sharia-judge-in-isis-held-syrian-city/
    In the meantime, dozens of people took to the street in Manbij to protest against ISIS atrocities, but the group opened fire on the protesters, killing at least two and wounding several others. The rest of the protesters were arrested, activists told ARA News in Manbij.


  • #6755
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    seanaway wrote: »
    He clearly stated '...you have to take out their families' i don't think he needs elaborate further. he didn't say 'you may have to' or 'it may happen in the course of..'

    well yes, in some context where it makes complete sense…just a slightly unfortunate choice of words maybe...


  • #6756
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    It must be absolute hell to be an average Joe who just wants to live in peace in Syria, likely to be slaughtered at any given time by Assad's forces, ISIS, or Western forces.

    You make it sound like the civil war there is something that shouldn't spoil their nightly viewing of coronation street.

    The country is in melt down , there are no average joes.


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  • #6757
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    ISIS controls an area larger than Scotland, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of innocent civilians in that part.

    But if the UK (and the rest) focus their bombings on oil refineries, known ISIS military targets,... then i don't see any problem with it.

    Question remains how easy that will be.

    yes, there surely are innocents in the isis territory who are trapped in the whole mess…though i suspect in places like al-raqqah the number of really innocent folks will be relatively small…but that’s just my take on things…
    and yes, bombing should be focused on oil refineries and infrastructure, as trump and others have also suggested, yet i also think the use of “human shields” should not keep anyone from bombing isis when a target presents itself…


  • #6758
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Knex. wrote: »
    The Rubberbandits actually penned it fairly accurately on facebook a few minutes ago

    Sounds good but isn't the on the ground evidence that the aerial campaigns against Al-Quida seriously disrupted their ability to organize and operate in a coherent manner?

    I protested against the Iraq war etc and I think the 70.000 moderates is a fantasy, to paraphrase Robert Fisk, if there was actually a 70,000 strong moderate army we wouldn't be here because they would have already have control of Syria.
    That doesn't mean that I think aerial strikes are useless though, for one thing it may cripple ISIS revenue generation.


  • #6759
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    seanaway wrote: »
    True. many of the truck drivers are civilians. That's why leaflets were dropped to tell them they would shortly be bombed and to get away.

    How easy to bomb refineries? Easy. They can't be moved, unlike trucks.

    We don't know if those drivers have been coerced. People still have to earn a living.

    Bombing refineries may have environmental implications.


  • #6760
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    kettlehead wrote: »
    21% of Syrians support ISIS. They are not all innocent little lambs/doctors/engineers.

    http://metrocosm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/what-muslims-really-think-of-isis.png

    Take that with a heavy pinch of salt, large swathes of the country are under ISIS control. Likewise when Assad was in power, he was "polling" 99% in elections.


  • #6761
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Take that with a heavy pinch of salt, large swathes of the country are under ISIS control. Likewise when Assad was in power, he was "polling" 99% in elections.

    Brutal civil wars polarise opinion, I suspect there are very few neutrals in these areas now.


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  • #6762
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Brutal civil wars polarise opinion, I suspect there are very few neutrals in these areas now.

    When the Nazis, the Soviets, Nationalist guerillas and all kinds of killers were laying waste to Eastern Europe in the forties,you can be sure the thing uppermost in the lives of most civilians was to survive,to protect their families, to get shelter and something to eat, to stay out of the way of men with guns.


  • #6763
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Brutal civil wars polarise opinion, I suspect there are very few neutrals in these areas now.

    They are just people like you or me who want to survive

    The reports from those stuck in cities like Mosul in Iraq under ISIS occupation are horrendous - and these are from people who have lived through the war, the ensuing chaos, the insurgency and the daily bombings, murders, kidnappings

    Millions in Syria don't give a damn about either side, they are just trying to survive, by either clawing their way to Jordan/Turkey/Europe, loading their children onto death-boats, or sticking it out in a war-torn country filled with horror


  • #6764
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    They are just people like you or me who want to survive

    The reports from those stuck in cities like Mosul in Iraq under ISIS occupation are horrendous - and these are from people who have lived through the war, the ensuing chaos, the insurgency and the daily bombings, murders, kidnappings

    Millions in Syria don't give a damn about either side, they are just trying to survive, by either clawing their way to Jordan/Turkey/Europe, loading their children onto death-boats, or sticking it out in a war-torn country filled with horror

    While that's a convienent picture to paint , it's not the reality , in all conflicts there is a large body of " soft" support. Sure no one wants to get killed , but Sunnis know whose is " buttering their bread" at the moment and its not Assad.

    This is ultimately a battle for religious supremacy over secular orthodoxy , there are few neutrals. Most have left.


  • #6765
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    ilkhanid wrote: »
    When the Nazis, the Soviets, Nationalist guerillas and all kinds of killers were laying waste to Eastern Europe in the forties,you can be sure the thing uppermost in the lives of most civilians was to survive,to protect their families, to get shelter and something to eat, to stay out of the way of men with guns.

    Indeed , that is merely natural survivial instincts. However equally all these conflicts you mention, drew enormous sectarian soft support , including the German population , the Serbs , the communists , nationalists in Spain etc.

    Ever guy who spouts an opinion at a bar , fuels these conflicts. , there are millions of such people in these conflicts.

    It's a convenient conceit to present these conflicts as small or not so small groups battling each other. , IS draws enormous support from Sunnis generally, and selafist/whabbists in particular , even though millions will never waive an AK 47 around.


  • #6766
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Sounds good but isn't the on the ground evidence that the aerial campaigns against Al-Quida seriously disrupted their ability to organize and operate in a coherent manner?

    I protested against the Iraq war etc and I think the 70.000 moderates is a fantasy, to paraphrase Robert Fisk, if there was actually a 70,000 strong moderate army we wouldn't be here because they would have already have control of Syria.
    That doesn't mean that I think aerial strikes are useless though, for one thing it may cripple ISIS revenue generation.

    There might actually be 70,000 moderates. However they are probably scattered in 40 or so different groups who hate each other only slightly less than they hate assad.


  • #6767
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    BoatMad wrote: »
    whose mindset ?


    as to changing mindsets , what do u suggest, personally I feel several B52s full of HE ordnance is a powerful mindset changer , but others might prefer 250,000 professional troops on the ground, !, to each his own :D
    Yeah, military force really helped Ireland change it's mind about that whole independence thing. Shut us ad our ideas right on up, so it did!


  • #6768
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yeah, military force really helped Ireland change it's mind about that whole independence thing. Shut us ad our ideas right on up, so it did!

    ....not half as much as discriminating against the faith of our fathers knocked the popery right out of them. Made us the stalwart protestant nation we are today.


  • #6769
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I protested against the Iraq war etc and I think the 70.000 moderates is a fantasy, to paraphrase Robert Fisk, if there was actually a 70,000 strong moderate army we wouldn't be here because they would have already have control of Syria.
    That doesn't mean that I think aerial strikes are useless though, for one thing it may cripple ISIS revenue generation.
    I'm not saying it necessarily is or is not an accurate number, but I don't get how an army of 70,000 moderates would have already ousted 200,000+ ISIS on their own?


  • #6770
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....not half as much as discriminating against the faith of our fathers knocked the popery right out of them. Made us the stalwart protestant nation we are today.

    Now all we need to do is to put up "No Muslims" signs across the land and we'll be sorted, sure they won't know what to do and they'll immediately convert to different religions, bringing instant peace worldwide!


  • #6771
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    BoatMad wrote: »
    While that's a convienent picture to paint , it's not the reality , in all conflicts there is a large body of " soft" support. Sure no one wants to get killed , but Sunnis know whose is " buttering their bread" at the moment and its not Assad.

    and it's not ISIS

    You seem to be mistaking this for sides when the clear majority support neither at this stage, the country is/was 70% (secular) Sunni, I don't see millions flocking to ISIS held territory do you?

    There are however millions fleeing the country


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  • #6772
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I'm not saying it necessarily is or is not an accurate number, but I don't get how an army of 70,000 moderates would have already ousted 200,000+ ISIS on their own?

    ISIS is trying to control a vast territory, and while there is probably 200,000 members of ISIS I doubt thats the size of their combat force.
    Anyway while there might be X numbers of men under arms in the Syrian Rebels, the fact is they are not what you would call moderate, the al-Nusra Front have came out and said that Alawites and others will have to convert if they win.

    A coherent functioning force of 70,000 men under arms is extremely formidable, look at the vast majority of modern conflicts and you will see that the numbers involved are far generally far less.


  • #6773
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    ISIS is trying to control a vast territory, and while there is probably 200,000 members of ISIS I doubt thats the size of their combat force.
    Anyway while there might be X numbers of men under arms in the Syrian Rebels, the fact is they are not what you would call moderate, the al-Nusra Front have came out and said that Alawites and others will have to convert if they win.

    A coherent functioning force of 70,000 men under arms is extremely formidable, look at the vast majority of modern conflicts and you will see that the numbers involved are far generally far less.
    The estimates I have read are actually of 200,000 militants in ISIS, but aside from that a major issue as someone else pointed out (and I think you're getting at?) is that they are far from coherent - different factions with different viewpoints, etc. Makes it much harder to fight as a group than a force like ISIS, before even going into their being outnumbered by 3 to 1.


  • #6774
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    kettlehead wrote: »
    21% of Syrians support ISIS. They are not all innocent little lambs/doctors/engineers.

    http://metrocosm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/what-muslims-really-think-of-isis.png

    Nobody said they were all innocent little lambs.

    If 21% support Daesh - then how many of the remaining 79% support Assad (and are willing to use violence) - and how many just want peaceful Democracy?
    BoatMad wrote: »
    You make it sound like the civil war there is something that shouldn't spoil their nightly viewing of coronation street.

    The country is in melt down , there are no average joes.

    I know the Country is in meltdown. What I don't know is how many Syrians willingly took up arms, and how many wanted change by Democratic, peaceful means.


  • #6775
    custard gannet
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭custard gannet


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Why are you not addressing the fact that they didn't even poll Muslims exclusively, just "people with Muslim surnames" ?

    It's pretty telling, how desperate you are to avoid answering this question at any and all costs.

    For someone who keeps trying to claim that the poll is misrepresentation just because it didn't provide the result you were looking for this is pathetic.

    Most people with Muslim surnames are, at least, nominally Muslim. This may change in Britain in 200 years time when there will be people who have a Muslim surname courtesy of a single Muslim ancestor from our time. Such folks are already reasonably common in the Caribbean and South Africa. But for now, it is accurate pointer as to their, at the least, census tick option. Whether they are actually religious is irrelevant, I seem to recall some guy arrested on his way to Syria with one of those Islam for dummies- a condensed overview of the Koran because he couldn't be bothered reading the real thing. Not to mention, again, your friends in Paris who occupied themselves with drinking and drug use until they suddenly found a cause to latch on to.


  • #6776
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Now all we need to do is to put up "No Muslims" signs across the land and we'll be sorted, sure they won't know what to do and they'll immediately convert to different religions, bringing instant peace worldwide!

    And not before time. Now if you'll excuse me there's a lodge meeting I must attend.


  • #6777
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    custard gannet wrote: »
    For someone(............)found a cause to latch on to.

    I'm afraid, as stated before, its poll by the Sun, refused by a reputable company who would not undertake a hasty underfinanced survey to make cheap headlines for a well known rag.


  • #6778
    custard gannet
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭custard gannet


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm afraid, as stated before, its poll by the Sun, refused by a reputable company who would not undertake a hasty underfinanced survey to make cheap headlines for a well known rag.

    Which has absolutely no bearing on the findings of the poll.

    But anyway, I'll let you get back to celebrating that people are too afraid to follow their instincts these days for fear of being branded by your lot. While we're not hitting the Rotherham numbers in terms of victims, I'm sure you will be happy with this return.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344736/Neighbors-Saudi-husband-wife-San-Bernardino-shooters-noticed-acting-suspiciously-did-NOT-report-fear-racial-profiling.html


  • #6779
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    custard gannet wrote: »
    Which has absolutely no bearing on the findings of the poll............

    Of course it does, as it was carried out in a rushed, underfunded and imprecise way. This has all been detailed before.


  • #6780
    custard gannet
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭custard gannet


    Nodin wrote: »
    Of course it does, as it was carried out in a rushed, underfunded and imprecise way. This has all been detailed before.

    But it hasn't. All anyone posted were a few opinion pieces from the Guardian which were....Well....Opinion. Along with an unverified article from Vice from someone who claimed to have done the poll which only served to point out how clear the question asked had been.


    I see you nicely avoided responding to how your mindset has lead to 14 preventable deaths today. Classy.


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  • #6781
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    custard gannet wrote: »
    But it hasn't. All anyone posted were a few opinion pieces from the Guardian which were....Well....Opinion. Along with an unverified article from Vice from someone who claimed to have done the poll which only served to point out how clear the question asked had been.
    Again, it did not do this. Again, you appear to have no idea how accurate research is conducted. Although something tells me if the number was 1% we'd be getting lectures on methodological rigour from you.


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