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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #6482
    acb121
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Arab states did not subject their people to honour killings, female genital mutilations. Imposing the Burqa on women, persecuting religious denominations. These are new occurrences that arose from the disastrous Iraq war.

    In all this we seem to miss out that the region has Shi'ite terrorism, Sunni terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Hold an election in Syria or Egypt today and the vast majority of the population would endorse reclaiming the lands now part of the recognised state of Israel which is a UN state. Presidents like Assad, Sisi and Netanyahu actually reflect the wishes of their citizens a hell of a lot more than the autocratic ruler of Saudi Arabia.

    The Saudi Arabians support Boko Haram in Nigeria, they were the only regime to recognise the Taliban and to bring it back to our own interests a point that is rarely if every brought up the 9/11 attackers were Saudi Arabian citizens. So lets be realistic secular states need security and that leads to restricting liberties for the population. It does not mean they encouraged Islamic terrorism.

    Jesus H Christ.

    I cannot believe anyone would believe such utter nonsense, let alone put their name to it on a messageboard.

    I cannot believe I actually read that, and somebody would actually pipe up with that and show their complete, utter, laughable ignorance.

    PROVE ANYTHING YOU HAVE POSTED THERE.

    All this medieval ( clue is in the word ) shyte preceedes the Iraq War by about one and a half thousand years. In fact, it precedes the formation of the United States of America, the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland or even Israel.

    Mohammed himself described how a clitoris should be mutilated in Islamic texts dating back to the 7th Century.

    Shall I explain any of the rest of it, or do you need a while to take that in before I spell out in large letters and very slowly, the rest of it ?


  • #6483
    acb121
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Arab states did not subject their people to honour killings, female genital mutilations. Imposing the Burqa on women, persecuting religious denominations. These are new occurrences that arose from the disastrous Iraq war.

    In all this we seem to miss out that the region has Shi'ite terrorism, Sunni terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Hold an election in Syria or Egypt today and the vast majority of the population would endorse reclaiming the lands now part of the recognised state of Israel which is a UN state. Presidents like Assad, Sisi and Netanyahu actually reflect the wishes of their citizens a hell of a lot more than the autocratic ruler of Saudi Arabia.

    The Saudi Arabians support Boko Haram in Nigeria, they were the only regime to recognise the Taliban and to bring it back to our own interests a point that is rarely if every brought up the 9/11 attackers were Saudi Arabian citizens. So lets be realistic secular states need security and that leads to restricting liberties for the population. It does not mean they encouraged Islamic terrorism.


    Islamic persecution of religious denominations during the lifetime and under the leadership of Mohammed himself.

    Mohammed himself, led his men in beheading 900 jews in a single afternoon.

    On his deathbed, Mohammed himself, instructed his followers to purge and cleanse the Arabian peninsula and claim the lands for Islam. And he did not mean with a can of Mr Sheen.

    Mohammed himself, came up with the concepts of DHIMMI and JIZYAH, where other religions are second class citizens in " Islamic countries " and must pay a tax to exist. I call that persecution.

    As for Israel, the jews were there nearly 3000 years before Mohammed was even heard of. The Muslims STOLE Muslim Lands from other people. Prior to the 630s there was no such thing as Muslim Lands, because Islam did not exist.


  • #6484
    acb121
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Arab states did not subject their people to honour killings, female genital mutilations. Imposing the Burqa on women, persecuting religious denominations. These are new occurrences that arose from the disastrous Iraq war.
    .

    Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”

    Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."

    Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

    The " Prophet " died in the year 632.

    Women were having their clits mutilated up to and beyond the Iraq War.

    Saddam probably saved the women of his country from it.

    Still, back to business as usual.


  • #6485
    acb121
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Arab states did not subject their people to honour killings, female genital mutilations. Imposing the Burqa on women, persecuting religious denominations. These are new occurrences that arose from the disastrous Iraq war.
    .

    Perhaps you may have missed the Armenian Genocide, amongt NUMEROUS islamically inspired persecutions ?

    Only a million and a half people, easy to miss I know.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide


  • #6486
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ilkhanid wrote: »
    That's being unfair to Buddhists. Apart from the attacks on the Rohynga in Burma there is no mob or religiously-inspired violence across the vast majority of the Buddhist world. ///////////.

    Sri Lanka?


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  • #6487
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    acb121 wrote: »
    Perhaps you may have missed the Armenian Genocide, amongt NUMEROUS islamically inspired persecutions ?

    Only a million and a half people, easy to miss I know.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

    The architects of the Armenian genoicide were secular turks, if I recall. What has this to do with the shooting in Paris?


  • #6488
    Flint Fredstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Flint Fredstone


    Nodin wrote: »
    What has this to do with the shooting in Paris?

    About as much as the IRA but that didn't stop you.


  • #6489
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    All espoused by that noble Brotherhood of Islam. Many of the Jihadists were ex-convicts and became extreme while in prison. Then there is the literature & media that is streaming into the Arab States from good ol Saudi Arabia.
    [...]

    sure, and they have been doing it all since long before any of the gulf wars…


  • #6490
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Nodin wrote: »
    The architects of the Armenian genoicide were secular turks, if I recall.

    Yes, they just happened to target Christians.
    Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians and the Ottoman Greeks were similarly targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government, and their treatment is considered by many historians to be part of the same genocidal policy.
    The Greek genocide, part of which is known as the Pontic genocide, was the systematic ethnic cleansing of the Christian Ottoman Greek population from its historic homeland in Anatolia during World War I and its aftermath (1914–23). It was instigated by the government of the Ottoman Empire against the Greek population of the Empire and it included massacres, forced deportations involving death marches, summary expulsions, arbitrary execution, and the destruction of Christian Orthodox cultural, historical, and religious monuments.
    The Assyrian genocide (also known as Sayfo or Seyfo, ("Sword")) Syriac: ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ or ܣܝܦܐ) refers to the mass slaughter of the Assyrian population of the Ottoman Empire and those in neighbouring Persia (by Ottoman troops)[1][2] during the First World War, in conjunction with the Armenian and Greek genocides.[4][5]

    The Assyrian civilian population of upper Mesopotamia (the Tur Abdin region, the Hakkâri, Van, and Siirt provinces of present-day southeastern Turkey, and the Urmia region of northwestern Iran) was forcibly relocated and massacred by the Muslim Ottoman (Turkish) army, together with other armed and allied Muslim peoples, including Kurds, Chechens and Circassians, between 1914 and 1920, with further attacks on unarmed fleeing civilians conducted by local Arab militias.[4]


  • #6491
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    Yes, they just happened to target Christians.

    Who were also not Turks, as the Young Turks were Ultra nationalists, who btw over threw the Sultan, who was the Religious authority.


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  • #6492
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Arab states did not subject their people to honour killings, female genital mutilations. Imposing the Burqa on women, persecuting religious denominations. These are new occurrences that arose from the disastrous Iraq war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country#Middle_East

    Also, the fact you think they didn't persecute religious minorities is ludicrous before the US invaded Iraq is ludicrous.
    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    In all this we seem to miss out that the region has Shi'ite terrorism, Sunni terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Hold an election in Syria or Egypt today and the vast majority of the population would endorse reclaiming the lands now part of the recognised state of Israel which is a UN state. Presidents like Assad, Sisi and Netanyahu actually reflect the wishes of their citizens a hell of a lot more than the autocratic ruler of Saudi Arabia.

    That's... Comforting?
    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The Saudi Arabians support Boko Haram in Nigeria, they were the only regime to recognise the Taliban and to bring it back to our own interests a point that is rarely if every brought up the 9/11 attackers were Saudi Arabian citizens. So lets be realistic secular states need security and that leads to restricting liberties for the population. It does not mean they encouraged Islamic terrorism.

    And nobody likes the Saudis. Your argument that other "secular" Arab States aren't repressive because they're not as openly repressive as the Saudis doesn't make sense to me.


  • #6493
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    wes wrote: »
    Who were also not Turks, as the Young Turks were Ultra nationalists, who btw over threw the Sultan, who was the Religious authority.

    The Young Turks had also split between Conservative elements and the Liberalists, and the YT realized they couldn't push secularism hard because the vast majority of Turks were religious in nature.


  • #6494
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    DFGrange wrote: »
    Islam is the youngest of the major religions and is going through a period of unrest which is limited compared to when Christianity has erupted. The problem is that in the modern world the effects of a few misguided zealots are amplified far beyond anything seen before.

    The world goes on and they'll be forgotten in time.
    Do you even history bro?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7y2LRcf4kc


  • #6495
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    The Young Turks had also split between Conservative elements and the Liberalists, and the YT realized they couldn't push secularism hard because the vast majority of Turks were religious in nature.

    Yes, they didn't push it as hard as they wanted to, but the fact remains the leaders during that period were secular nationalists, and there genocide was about maintaining Turkish supremacy more than anything.


  • #6496
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    wes wrote: »
    Yes, they didn't push it as hard as they wanted to, but the fact remains the leaders during that period were secular nationalists, and there genocide was about maintaining Turkish supremacy more than anything.

    Which wasnt even the first Turkish pogrom/genocide. The Turks conquered the land and expelled the Byzantine Greeks and created an Islamic state


  • #6497
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Do you even history bro?

    Stuff and nonsense from a far right channel is not history, though hopefully one day it will be.


  • #6498
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Nodin wrote: »
    Stuff and nonsense from a far right channel is not history, though hopefully one day it will be.

    Facts dont have political persuasion. Islamic armies conquered and expelled European peoples from North Africa and Byzantium and got as far as the south of France. Islam has always been a religion of conquest from the get go, and still is.

    I suppose its easier to throw out buzzwords then actually refuting the facts........


  • #6499
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Facts dont have political persuasion. Islamic armies conquered and expelled European peoples from North Africa and Byzantium and got as far as the south of France. Islam has always been a religion of conquest from the get go, and still is.

    And France conquered north Africa, the Brits India and large swathes of Africa and Asia, the Belgians part of Africa, various powers warred against China and so on. Whats your point?


  • #6500
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Nodin wrote: »
    And France conquered north Africa, the Brits India and large swathes of Africa and Asia, the Belgians part of Africa, various powers warred against China and so on. Whats your point?

    So Imperialism is bad? Or is that only European imperialism is bad? And if not, should we not resist Eastern Imperialism?
    IS certiantly seem to be quite overtly talking aobut their imperial intentions.


  • #6501
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    conorhal wrote: »
    So Imperialism is bad? Or is that only European imperialism is bad? And if not, should we not resist Eastern Imperialism?
    IS certiantly seem to be quite overtly talking aobut their imperial intentions.

    All Imperialism is bad. Talking about "Islamic Imperialism" as exceptional, particularily in relation to the Turks is nonsense as it was just another expansionist Empire.


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  • #6502
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Nodin wrote: »
    All Imperialism is bad. Talking about "Islamic Imperialism" as exceptional, particularily in relation to the Turks is nonsense as it was just another expansionist Empire.

    I didn't mention the Turks (though the Ottoman's were pretty expansionist and imperialist) I asked you about IS. Should we not squelsh their imperialist intentions?


  • #6503
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    conorhal wrote: »
    I didn't mention the Turks (though the Ottoman's were pretty expansionist and imperialist) I asked you about IS. Should we not squelsh their imperialist intentions?


    O I think we should just get rid of them full stop.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94303984&postcount=6


  • #6504
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Nodin wrote: »
    Sri Lanka?

    I wouldn't characterize that as religiously inspired, it was more an ethnic struggle in which religion was one of the differentiating factors, somewhat like Northern Ireland. I don't recall any statements by Buddhist-or Hindu-religious leaders relating to the conflict.
    acb121 wrote: »
    Unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be reformed, for numerous reasons.

    I disagree. That statement is too broad. No faith is irreformable. For a start I think, Shi'a Islam is more amenable to reform. But I do think that Sunni Islam has a big struggle ahead of it, for the reasons you stated: the status of the Koran and the multiplication of religious authority in the Sunni Islamic world.


  • #6505
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ilkhanid wrote: »
    I wouldn't characterize that as religiously inspired, it was more an ethnic struggle in which religion was one of the differentiating factors, somewhat like Northern Ireland. I don't recall any statements by Buddhist-or Hindu-religious leaders relating to the conflict.


    ..................

    You might read -
    http://www.tricycle.com/reviews/buddhism-betrayed-religion-politics-and-violence-sri-lanka

    then depress yourself by noting they've found new scapegoats.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23653213


  • #6506
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,360 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    acb121 wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ.

    I cannot believe anyone would believe such utter nonsense, let alone put their name to it on a messageboard.

    I cannot believe I actually read that, and somebody would actually pipe up with that and show their complete, utter, laughable ignorance.

    PROVE ANYTHING YOU HAVE POSTED THERE.

    All this medieval ( clue is in the word ) shyte preceedes the Iraq War by about one and a half thousand years. In fact, it precedes the formation of the United States of America, the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland or even Israel.

    Mohammed himself described how a clitoris should be mutilated in Islamic texts dating back to the 7th Century.

    Shall I explain any of the rest of it, or do you need a while to take that in before I spell out in large letters and very slowly, the rest of it ?

    Your outrage is unnecessary. Saudi Arabia was one of the only countries to recognise the Taliban in Afghanistan. They also support the cause of the Wahhabist cause of Boko Haram.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram


  • #6507
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    PARIS (Reuters) - The ringleader behind the Nov. 13 attacks in Paris had plans to strike Jewish targets and to disrupt schools and the transport system in France, according to sources close to the investigation.

    Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Belgian national of Moroccan origin, also boasted of the ease with which he had re-entered Europe from Syria via Greece two months earlier, exploiting the confusion of the migrant crisis and the continent's passport-free Schengen system, the sources said on Friday.

    Their comments, confirming excerpts from a confidential police witness statement leaked to a French magazine this week, fleshed out a picture of the Islamic State militant who spearheaded the Nov. 13 attacks targeting cafes, a concert hall and sports stadium in Paris in which 130 people were killed.

    The witness statement, quoted in the Valeurs Actuelles weekly magazine, describes how Abaaoud approached his cousin Hasna Ait Boulahcen two days after the killing spree asking her to hide him while he prepared further attacks.

    Very lucky that there weren't further attacks carried out.


  • #6508
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Well big surprise, it took hardly any time at all for France to abuse the emergency laws, and use them to ban climate change protests:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/27/paris-climate-activists-put-under-house-arrest-using-emergency-laws

    The French government is - right now - a far greater threat to the French public, than any terrorist group.

    I mean, this is a really flagrant violation of the purpose of the emergency laws, and of the spirit they were enacted with (stopping terrorists) - using them to opportunistically ban protests, shows that a big part of the purpose behind enacting these emergency laws, has nothing at all to do with terrorism - that's just an excuse - but to acquire greater power against political opponents.


  • #6509
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    In fairness, a large gathering could certainly be a target in the current climate.

    However, you are entirely correct that these emergency laws need to be relaxed in the very near future.

    The potential for abuse is horrendous.


  • #6510
    leavingirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 551 ✭✭✭leavingirl


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Well big surprise, it took hardly any time at all for France to abuse the emergency laws, and use them to ban climate change protests:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/27/paris-climate-activists-put-under-house-arrest-using-emergency-laws

    The French government is - right now - a far greater threat to the French public, than any terrorist group.

    I mean, this is a really flagrant violation of the purpose of the emergency laws, and of the spirit they were enacted with (stopping terrorists) - using them to opportunistically ban protests, shows that a big part of the purpose behind enacting these emergency laws, has nothing at all to do with terrorism - that's just an excuse - but to acquire greater power against political opponents.

    Un-fcuking-believable but not surprising. People need to please wake up.


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  • #6511
    the evasion_kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭the evasion_kid


    leavingirl wrote: »
    Un-fcuking-believable but not surprising. People need to please wake up.

    “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste – it’s an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before”. - Obamas former chief of staff-rahm emanuel


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