Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

DubVelo · 20-11-2015 01:38AM

Red King wrote: »

Ireland is not part of the UK.

Very good! Do you want a special gold star?

bajer101 · 20-11-2015 01:39AM

Everybody on this thread, homework for tonight is to go away, study the Quran and the Hadiths. Talk to some Muslims and discover what they actually think and believe.

long range shooter · 20-11-2015 01:39AM

Red King wrote: »

Ireland is not part of the UK.

Are you serious?

long range shooter · 20-11-2015 01:41AM

bajer101 wrote: »

Everybody on this thread, homework for tonight is to go away, study the Quran and the Hadiths. Talk to some Muslims and discover what they actually think and believe.

homework for tonight is to follow the news.,whats next.

m@cc@ · 20-11-2015 01:43AM

Depp wrote: »

If you read my post I said that it was bad that it was more important than stopping terrorism, sorry I didn't complete the statement thought i got the message across but nice try though you almost deflected again, keep at it though you might eventually!

Also in response to your post from earlier, I never excused them in any way, shape or form, they are subhuman embodiments of evil, end of. My point is that having a book like the qur'an drilled into you from a young age its not exacty going to make extremism less likely to happen is it? On your second point however I agree completely, bombs aren't going to solve Islamic terrorism, it will stop Daesh, who should be stopped, but another madman will pop up using the same motivations and justifications coming from the same evil lines in the same ''Peaceful'' book. And you'll still be here banging on about how the IRA were just as bad.

I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. Never mentioned the IRA.

My point has always been that words are open to interpretation and should not be used to excuse terrorism. I've pointed to people negative interpretations of Christianity as a comparison which you agreed with. So, wouldn't it be more productive to focus on the interpretations?

Depp · 20-11-2015 01:47AM

m@cc@ wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

So say for instance, we buy into the belief that Islam is evil. What do you propose we do to solve it? Send missionaries instead of military?

where was it said they should be christians instead? And you cant deny that certain parts of Islam in its current form are completely evil. Even muslim scholars are calling out for these.

DubVelo · 20-11-2015 01:50AM

Christy42 wrote: »

The reason Christianity and the crusades were brought into this was to show that any religion can be used to justify violence (impressively since they tend to have the do not kill in each of them, including islam). Heck if needs be I am sure they could take the hungry caterpillar and use it to justify these acts. That is what they are doing, it is essentially what humans have always done which is to act how they want and use religion to justify it. Just these people are psychopaths going around blowing themselves up.

I don't agree. If groupthink wasn't a real thing how do you explain the Nazis or other violent movements? Or why Russia has been pumping so much money into fancy English/French/Arabic propaganda news networks the past couple of years?

People don't suddenly start killing en masse and when asked why say 'Oh, it said so in that book I read last Tuesday'.

m@cc@ · 20-11-2015 01:50AM

bajer101 wrote: »

Everybody on this thread, homework for tonight is to go away, study the Quran and the Hadiths. Talk to some Muslims and discover what they actually think and believe.

But, if we study the Qu'ran, won't we all think lose freewill and think the same as ALL Muslims? You can see our quandry.

bajer101 · 20-11-2015 01:52AM

m@cc@ wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

So say for instance, we buy into the belief that Islam is evil. What do you propose we do to solve it? Send missionaries instead of military?

Invoking Godwin is a cheap shot as this is one of the occasions where it was justified to make the comparison. The point I am making is that if we forget about the god aspect and just concentrate on the political and social aspects of the Islam ideology it doesn't stand up to modern standards and deserves to be criticized. So why don't we criticize it?

How to solve it is a very difficult question. I am not an expert, but I look to people who are and they say that the answer has to come from within Islam itself. But the first step is that we stop being apologists for this behaviour and giving them a free pass.

bodhrandude · 20-11-2015 01:54AM

Depp you were looking for the Islamic view point to the shootings here, apart from what the media has said about Irish Muslims slamming ISIS about the Paris attack, the best I can come up with is one of the first guys to speak out against Islam, Salman Rushdie and the book he wrote Satanic Verses, which caused the Iran leader at the time Ayatollah Khomeini to issue a death warrant against him for cursing the Quran. Was also watching an interesting doc on the Al Jazeera news channel about assassinations and attempted assassinations of bloggers in Bangladesh, India who spoke out against Islam and the Quran.

Depp · 20-11-2015 01:57AM

m@cc@ wrote: »

I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. Never mentioned the IRA.

My point has always been that words are open to interpretation and should not be used to excuse terrorism. I've pointed to people negative interpretations of Christianity as a comparison which you agreed with. So, wouldn't it be more productive to focus on the interpretations?

My apologies its been a long day, thats a hundred percent true words can always be twisted to justify killings and hate, my problem is how else can the words i quoted earlier be interpreted any other way? what other way can you decipher a call to behead non believers? I cant get my head around it and i just cannot see how Islam in its current form with these verses included can claim to be peaceful. As ive stated before the quran is not all bad but i dont understand how it can preach peace and love but then a few chapters later say nah you can kill those guys actually. Another huge problem i have is the timeline at which it was told by muhammad, and i wont go into my views on him again, the peace and love section was all written when muhammad was trying to get his initial followers, then the conquer and killing was written after muhammad had gained a large following and become powerful. Ive researched this heavily and its not all coming from quotes on facebook. I'm not expressing this view because I hate Muslims or I hate Islam but its because i fear it, i fear the potential its teachings have and a are having on influencing and helping evil men.

Overheal · 20-11-2015 01:59AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If you dont have enough members you remain a cult.

If you can expand your cult sufficiently, then you can claim blame anyone criticising your cult of being offensive and blaspheming, because now your cult is called a religion.

The CIA estimates ISIS is about 30,000 members strong. ISIS claims 200,000.

The Church of Scientology claims up to 15 million members, though 25,000 - 30,000 is the more reliable number.

I must have missed all those bombings and shootings that scientologists carried out. (I ain't a fan of scientology but seriously...comparing it to islam???)

ISIS, not Islam. ISIS is the sad, militant Westboro Baptist Church of Islam. Calling them Islamic is a bit of a joke.

Depp · 20-11-2015 02:00AM

bodhrandude wrote: »

Depp you were looking for the Islamic view point to the shootings here, apart from what the media has said about Irish Muslims slamming ISIS about the Paris attack, the best I can come up with is one of the first guys to speak out against Islam, Salman Rushdie and the book he wrote Satanic Verses, which caused the Iran leader at the time Ayatollah Khomeini to issue a death warrant against him for cursing the Quran. Was also watching an interesting doc on the Al Jazeera news channel about assassinations and attempted assassinations of bloggers in Bangladesh, India who spoke out against Islam and the Quran.

Cheers for that, Ive read about the Rushdie situation in the past but I hadnt seen this before.

bajer101 · 20-11-2015 02:03AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Part of me agrees with you, or with parts of your post, but I can't reconcile the image of the Quran and scholars you project with how a Muslim friend of mine practices his religion back in France. (Just that one because I've lost touch with all the others I was in school with).
He's a solicitor, doesn't "accommodate, kill, or tax" as far as I know, has no intention to do so, and if he was told to do so by scholars I think he'd tell them to f off.
I remember endless discussions with him about religion(s), he loved talking about it, there were bits I simply could not agree with or understand, but every one of his interpretations of the Quran were about respect, and love (for your friend, women in your life, your family...).

As regards the bombings, I think it doesn't seem to occur to some that, should the bombings stop, in a very harrowing and paradoxical manner, it would be a let down for some (most ?) of the civilian families that are left there.

What is worse ? Living at the mercy of Daech ? Or living with the fear that the bombings to get rid of Daech might accidentally hit you ?

I know myself, as a mother, I would probably choose the latter, because despite the risk, there would be hope for my family, and not a long haul fear that my daughter will be raped and married to a terrorist, and my son trained to blow himself up (amongst many other things).

You friend isn't a real Muslim according to the Quran. He would have his head lopped off by Daesh, as would anyone else who dared to think like him or would dare to leave Islam. Last year 20% of Dutch Mosques invited extremists to speak.

Clamp down on that. 70% of Muslims don't believe in violence or extremism, but that leaves a very high 30% who do. No one is tackling that 30%. These threads are a perfect example of that. How dare we criticize the 30% who are in favour of violence! That 30% need to be tackled. Anyone lecturing and advocating extremism should be charged. This hasn't been done because we have pandered to them for fear of being called racist.

Education and integration is also key. Ban on Madrasses and Islam only schools. But education, education, education.

bajer101 · 20-11-2015 02:09AM

m@cc@ wrote: »

But, if we study the Qu'ran, won't we all think lose freewill and think the same as ALL Muslims? You can see our quandry.

What? This is a serious conversation for serious people. I'm not there beside you, so could you just slap yourself in the face for me and cop the fúck on.

m@cc@ · 20-11-2015 02:10AM

bajer101 wrote: »

What? This is a serious conversation for serious people. I'm not there beside you, so could you just slap yourself in the face for me and cop the fúck on.

Look at the violence in your writing. I insist you put it down, pronto.

Depp · 20-11-2015 02:12AM

m@cc@ wrote: »

Look at the violence in your writing. I insist you put it down, pronto.

If you're going to resort to trolling you might aswell not bother posting here anymore. Grow up like.

Yeah_Right · 20-11-2015 02:14AM

Depp wrote: »

Religion is the forefront of their motivations, I believe personally Islam and the qu'ran is a huge part of the problem and to say that the fact they're Muslims is irrelevant is a ridiculous viewpoint, this whole apologist ''Islam hasn't got anything to do with it'' argument is proper loony bin stuff, the qu'ran is a fatally flawed text and as long as its followed religiously by large numbers in its current form these groups will keep popping up, they'll keep growing huge followings, they'll keep brainwashing kids, and they'll keep killing those that stand in their way.

Its all tickedy boo when its third world countries engulfed in their madness and they kill a few here a few there, but what happens when a proper global superpower is taken over by these evil madmen, what happens then? And I'm not suggesting there will be headlines of 'Daesh Invade USA' or 'Daesh Invade the UK', I'm suggesting what if their tactics they brag about, taunt us with, work, that is political takeover once they infiltrate the populous, and vote in Islamic candidates into government, and then what do we do? This might seem ridiculous and I'm not saying it'll happen next year or the year after, but mark my words, if things continue the way they are, and the idiotic, 'ah we cant be racist they're only poor refugees' attitude keeps gaining traction,and the shengen agreement isn't completely rethought, this will become a reality, sharia law will be our day to day life. This is their stated aim and this is how they've stated they plan to do it.

True, not all refugees are crack Daesh soldiers in disguise, and they don't pose the danger of blowing up football stadiums, put they pose danger in a different manner, and this may seem silly to you now but they creep us all closer to the moment where the muslims are the majority. Sure they tell us 80% of muslims are ''moderate muslims'', if thats the case, whats the problem having a few more of them around, but if thats true then let me ask you this, if most muslims in the world are not radical, why do Daesh have the power they have in syria and iraq, muslim countries where the majority are supposedly so called 'moderate' muslims? why do they have such a wide spread following in Islamic communities around the world? Why do young men and women from Islamic communities around the world, some recent converts even, flock to syria in their droves, the word ''Jihad'' proudly stamped in their passports under reason for travel?

If you dont see Islam and the qu'ran in their current forms as HUMONGOUS problems you need to open your eyes, read the qu'ran, read the hateful message it gives, see whats being relayed to these people from early childhood as ''The unchanging word of GOD as revealed to Muhammad.'' Then argue that I'm wrong and Islam is not at fault at all here. You can mention the IRA and the crusades and the westboro baptist church and Anders Breivikand any use other apologist tactics all you wan't they have no relevance to the problem that is the Islamic organization Daesh and their quest for global domination, which is what this is the start of. Worrying amount of people refusing to speak out due to fear of being branded with the big ''R word,'' there are bigger things afoot to be afraid of.

This is my viewpoint and I don't apologize for nor hide from it. No doubt there are people that will demonize me as ''racist'' and ''islamaphobe'' for holding these views, and quite frankly I could care less, I am not a racist, Islam is not a race, its a fanatical ideology based around the flawed teachings of an evil, Illiterate, bearded Pedophile, and I am not Islamaphobic, a phobia is defined as an irrational fear, which fear of Islam is not, its completely rational to fear something that teaches to kill you for having a differing set of beliefs. This is my passionate plea to people to open their eyes to the unadulterated evil we are allowing, even encouraging, to creep into our society. Don't have me proven right.

what a racist bigot huh?

Edit: Fixed for anyone who had difficulty before

Well said Depp.

Christy42 · 20-11-2015 02:16AM

DubVelo wrote: »

I don't agree. If groupthink wasn't a real thing how do you explain the Nazis or other violent movements? Or why Russia has been pumping so much money into fancy English/French/Arabic propaganda news networks the past couple of years?

People don't suddenly start killing en masse and when asked why say 'Oh, it said so in that book I read last Tuesday'.

I said they could use the hungry caterpillar, I didn't mean they had to read it. Charismatic people and everyone around thinking the same thing can certainly have a large effect on peoples view points. It can convince them of certain world views very heavily (see any cult).

The actual justification for this (whether it be a unifying factor like religion such as a cult or Daesh or a common enemy such as the Nazis used by blaming a lot on Jewish people) seems to be irrelevant.

I am unsure were these things start but people are being convinced by those around them and people they find as charismatic to join up. Reading any of the holy texts isn't required and I doubt many of their fighters have read much of them. Any parts they have read is pure confirmation bias, they want to look for the parts telling them to kill and they would find them in near any book no matter what the book is actually about.

This isn't by way of excusing them, they are still horrible people who are responsible for their own horrific actions and need to be stopped. These people were also very open to being told that God wants them to kill which again makes them horrific people.

Does that clarify my position?

Yeah_Right · 20-11-2015 02:37AM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Christianity doesn't have near the problems Islam has currently in the world. Anyone saying otherwise is either stupid or deluded or perhaps both.

You always get either apologists or liberals who think Islam is a race (rollseyes) trying to deflect and talk about Christianity as if some comparison can be drawn on the two religions in 2015, it is utterly insane but all so predictable, just as I said it would be on the night of the attacks on this very thread.

People always say they are fundamentalists and not Muslim but what are they fundamental about? The teachings of Muhammad is exactly what ISIS do which includes beheadings and forcefully trying to get people to convert to Islam which is what that tyrant Muhammad did in the 7th century.

Christians follow the message of Jesus who if going by all we know is a vastly superior person to Muhammad and I'm not even talking about spiritually as I don't believe in that. Just as a person and what we know from writings, even if you think Jesus didn't exist, his character" is miles better than Muhammad.

It's like people trying to argue that emperor palpatine is a better person than Luke Skywalker.

I just had to give this post some love. The last sentence. Brilliant.

StringerBell · 20-11-2015 02:58AM

Overheal wrote: »

The CIA estimates ISIS is about 30,000 members strong. ISIS claims 200,000.

The Church of Scientology claims up to 15 million members, though 25,000 - 30,000 is the more reliable number.ISIS, not Islam. ISIS is the sad, militant Westboro Baptist Church of Islam. Calling them Islamic is a bit of a joke.

They are Islamic though, very Islamic, extreme fundamental Islamic. We need to acknowledge this for a start, I do not condone the distrust and the abuse of common moderate Muslims but to say IS are not Islamic is incorrect. They faithfully carry out Sharia Law, they are devout to their religious ideology. They are committed to returning to 7th century civilization in regards to legal environment and ultimately bringing about the apocolypse. They hold true to the early traditions and texts of Islam.

They will eat themselves alive given time, though the humanitarian cost is obviously a high one. They will never have allies due to their ideology and they are following and claiming such a strict set of rules that they will be unable to fulfill them and will collapse on themselves.

They cannot fight a guerilla war, they must continue to expand that caliphate etc, these two in particular will be their undoing. The taking back of Sinjar is significant and if they can be battled back by native resistance (helped by foreign assistance obv) they will lose their legitimacy. The oath will be invalid and the Caliphate will fail. They claim to be the sweeping army of Muhammad, this is a big claim to live up to. They need to grow the Caliphate, they need to make war at all times and bring forth a battle with the "Armies of Rome" at Dabiq, after this it will expand again and take Istanbul, then the anti-messiah (Dajjal) comes along and batters the ****e out of them till there is about 5000 left in the Calpih, but just as they look to be well and truly ****ed, Jesus will come down from the heavens and spear the anti-messiah leading the Muslims to victory.

The nightmare scenario would be if they reconcile with Al-Queda and that should be watched closely, but as of right now relations are extremely poor between the two and unless Al-Queda were to undergo significant changes (since IS can't) they should remain enemies for all intents and purposes

BlaasForRafa · 20-11-2015 02:59AM

Overheal wrote: »

ISIS, not Islam. ISIS is the sad, militant Westboro Baptist Church of Islam. Calling them Islamic is a bit of a joke.

Daesh are very islamic, just not like the fluffy bits of the koran that mohammed dictacted in the early part of his career (that the apologists like to trot out all the time) but like the hardcore violent bits from later in the koran when he was a successful warlord.

Yosef.coen · 20-11-2015 04:00AM

ISIS are applying the Koran and Hadith's in a literal sense. They are turning back the clock to what the 7th century was actually like. To claim they are in no way shape or form Islamic has no basis or doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

If we in the west are ever going to understand and defeat Jihad we have to open our eyes and look at the reality of the problem, not duck and cover because the truth is unpalatable.

Weatherproof79 · 20-11-2015 04:03AM

Sick of hearing about it now. Where was the outcry for the innocent Russians, the bomb in Lebanon and Turkey? There was no silence before games for them or changing our Internet avatars to their flags yet they were all targeted by isis. Isis are scum no doubt and so is valuing a persons life from one country over another. All a bunch of hypocrites

Samaris · 20-11-2015 04:27AM

ISIL are fundamentally Islamic. They are a fundamental Islamic sect that embrace the darkest aspects of their religious texts and demand that everyone should and must follow them. They might be 30,000, they might have 200,000 professed followers or admirers, we honestly cannot be sure. They probably are -not- the Church of Scientology's couple of million, mind you. (Since when did the Church of Scientology become experts on anything bar fleecing people anyway?) It's impossible to get exact numbers, mind. I don't think they're exactly ticking off "ISIL-Muslim" on the census under religion, are they?

They don't like us. They don't like anyone much. But the people they really, really hate are the "apostate Muslims", the ones that...well...think they're a bunch of loony nutjobs. Which is..y'know, most of them. They do also seem to have a serious thing against Jews. They don't like Christians either, mind, but we're probably about third on the "kill-'em-all" list. They don't really get why people are fleeing their lands, but one odd aspect to it is that, rather like in Nazi Germany, quite a lot of the educated workforce is getting the damn hell out of there. Which, as you can imagine, isn't doing much for keeping their country running. You can take over a country with bombs and guns, but they don't help much in running it afterwards.

If anyone's wondering what the whole "Muslims are victims too" thing is about, it's likely that. Seriously, you -don't- cram your family into what's somewhat akin to a boat and set off across the Med for a holiday! These people are -running-.

That is actually a reason to take them in. The thing is that terrorists may get in with them. But despite what people are arguing in this thread, the borders aren't actually a free for all pass. Checks ARE made. The ones that are the worry are those born here, the ones who haven't seen what life is really like under ISIL, who feel for X, Y and Z reason that they are disenfranchised or ..whatever, and start reading ISIL's propaganda bollocks. If for some reason they can't -or won't- do what ISIL commands "all good Muslims" to do, and run away to the Caliphate, they might take the second option and start planning a terrorist attack.

Is the Koran a problem? I don't know, perhaps so. It does sound much like the Old Testament, and I'm aware they're at least based off the same general scripts. The Christians had a major "reformation" with the gospals of Jesus, which is what Christians base their religion off, and there is, at least, somewhat -less- to take excuses to wage war about from it. Having said that, there's still pockets of Christianity that quite happily take from the Old Testament for the excuse to preach hate, and even murder.

Flurf, really. Another set of views; I'm sure someone will take something in here as an excuse to point out once more how the liberals are responsible for terrorist attacks!

Nodin · 20-11-2015 07:02AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Well, the (............)higher.

...the campaign was on until the 1990's. Not to mention the fact that given the size of the French muslim population, it would be impossible to track all attacks in a situation where they commanded any sort of real support. I'd say pull the other one.

Depp wrote:

No you're comparing them, I'm arguing that radical Islam stems from Islam,
you're using shite about the IRA to distract from my
point and trying to make it about something else which it isn't

This is quite simple - you make a claim that Islam=violence. I want to know, in France, why there isn't a level of violence consistent with your claims. Please explain.

silverharp · 20-11-2015 08:00AM

Nodin wrote: »

This is quite simple - you make a claim that Islam=violence. I want to know, in France, why there isn't a level of violence consistent with your claims. Please explain.

I havnt followed this but you might be strawmanning his point. Islam doesnt say that you must be violent or you are a bad Muslim so most people do what they do around the world, get on with their life. luckily for the west Jesus didnt command an army or run an empire :pac:

Depp · 20-11-2015 08:15AM

Nodin wrote: »

This is quite simple - you make a claim that Islam=violence. I want to know, in France, why there isn't a level of violence consistent with your claims. Please explain.

I dont claim Islam=violent nor have I said every muslim is a terrorist. I'm saying that the quran which is the basis of islam is it not? contains verses that when taught as cannon, as the word of god, which they are, contribute to the insanity of radical muslims and provide a tool for radicals to recruit impressionable young men and women who have it ingrained in there religious viewpoint. Indeed many muslims use there rational judgement and ignore these verses but do you disagree that these verses are dangerous? do you think they should be there? I've tried to make it clear my problem lies not with Islam as a whole, but Islam in its current form where it teaches children that god says to behead non believers. Do you disagree they exist? or are you just making argument for arguments sake?

long range shooter · 20-11-2015 08:21AM

Norway and Denmark have enough as it seems.
Looks like people are starting to wake up in the northern regions

.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/01/denmark-slash-benefits-asylum-seekers-refugees

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-denmark-discourages-asylum-seekers-with-newspaper-adverts-in-lebanon-10490666.html

https://www.regjeringen.no/en/id4/

https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/asylum-regulations-in-norway/insight/stricter-asylum-regulations-in-norway/id2460759/

I guess they dont want to end up like Sweden.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-refugees-and-the-cost-of-sweden-s-kindness-1.912737

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/18/interview-retired-swedish-police-chief-says-malmo-crime-skyrocketing-due-uncontrolled-immigration-no-go-zones/

long range shooter · 20-11-2015 08:35AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnMSCPHxLNA

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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