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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #5792
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Depp wrote: »
    No you're comparing them, I'm arguing that radical Islam stems from Islam, you're using shite about the IRA to distract from my point and trying to make it about something else which it isn't, do you deny the teachings of Islam leads to radical Islam? if so just come out and say it and explain why you believe that to be so, don't just spout on about what the IRA did and about what the Christians did and about what the KKK did. Whats your next step going through my previous posts on other forums to defame me? You could mention I post a lot on the MMA forum a lot so I must be obsessed with violence, that'd be a good one to use.

    It reminds me of a little quote I heard, "if Islam is a religion of peace, why aren't the extremists just extremely peaceful?"


  • #5793
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    bajer101 wrote: »
    I suspect that part of the reason why Liberals are reluctant to criticize Islam is that they would find themselves on the same side as genuine racists like the EDL and their ilk..
    I think it also comes down to the fact that Muslims are a minority in European countries.
    And for most left leaning parties, minorities are above criticism.


  • #5794
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,212 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    long range shooter wrote: »
    its called sports shooting?wtf has that got to do with this?
    i have been doing that since i was 10 years old.
    talk about being ignorant?

    Geez I hope so.
    You talk of a 2016 rising . And you want a semi automatic gun.
    I should notice, we all should.
    Even if i'm way off the mark, I should notice.


  • #5795
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    I see the US House of Representatives have voted to keep the Syrian refugees out of the U.S. by a vote of 289 to 137


  • #5796
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Geez I hope so.
    You talk of a 2016 rising . And you want a semi automatic gun.
    I should notice, we all should.
    Even if i'm way off the mark, I should notice.[/QUOT

    you are way of mark allright.
    did you read my other post 5 years back too?


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  • #5797
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    I think it also comes down to the fact that Muslims are a minority in European countries.
    And for most left leaning parties, minorities are above criticism.

    That's true. It is kind of astonishing when there are some genuine reformist Muslims like Maajid Nawaz - who really know what they are talking about - saying that there is a problem with the Left's attitude to Islam, and the white, middle class, Atheist, Guardian reading Left try to tell him that he is completely wrong.


  • #5798
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Orangebrigade wrote: »
    Being done by countries which aren't religious states. It isn't being done in the name of God unlike the majority of these Islamic groups.

    Middle Eastern people make that distinction about Christian nations about as well as we do about Muslims. There's also the fact that GWB explicitly said "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq" which gives Muslims what kind of impression, exactly, of the Westerners dropping bombs on them?
    bajer101 wrote: »
    I would tend to agree, but the difference is that there is a much smaller percentage of Extremist Christians, and they are not really engaged in violence. If there were large numbers of Christians involved in Inquisition type activities today, we would be denouncing them and blaming their religion and telling them that they have to reform. Christianity has undergone this major reformation, but Islam hasn't. But for some reason a large portion of the Liberal Left has no problem criticizing fundamentalist Christians like Kim Davis and scoffing at their religion, but they won't criticize Islam!



    Saying that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam is the equivalent of saying that the Inquisition had nothing to do with Catholicism. I suspect that part of the reason why Liberals are reluctant to criticize Islam is that they would find themselves on the same side as genuine racists like the EDL and their ilk. I think we need to swallow that bitter pill and have the courage to face the fact that there is a problem with Islam and that the fact that the Quran is supposedly the literal word of Allah, and that it contains many passages promoting violence is a big contributing factor to ISIS and Islamic extremism.

    By the same token you have to appreciate this viewpoint is mirrored in the Middle East, with passages in other texts like the Bible being used to further the rhetoric. Schoolchildren (if they go to school) are taught that America (for the most part, but other interfering countries also) is pure evil and must be destroyed. And despite what we teach in schools, there are far too many people calling for the eradication of Islam, as a succinct counterpart to that.
    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    I see the US House of Representatives have voted to keep the Syrian refugees out of the U.S. by a vote of 289 to 137

    Assuming it passes the Senate also, it will be veto'd by the President. Unless there is the supermajority needed under procedural rules to block such a veto. From there, the Supreme Court could still rule against it if it is unconstitutional.


  • #5799
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Overheal wrote: »
    Middle Eastern people make that distinction about Christian nations about as well as we do about Muslims.



    By the same token you have to appreciate this viewpoint is mirrored in the Middle East, with passages in other texts like the Bible being used to further the rhetoric. Schoolchildren (if they go to school) are taught that Western civilization is pure evil and must be destroyed. And despite what we teach in schools, there are far too many people calling for the eradication of Islam, as a succinct counterpart to that.



    Assuming it passes the Senate also, it will be veto'd by the President. Unless there is the supermajority needed under procedural rules to block such a veto.

    They have the majority. 47 democrats voted with the Republicans to give the 2/3 majority. No whip there.


  • #5800
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So the only thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is paranoia and racism. Perfect.


  • #5801
    TheLastMohican
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭TheLastMohican


    DubVelo wrote: »
    IS would probably say something along the lines of: 'There is NO interpreting the koran. It is the word of god and there is either following it and being muslim, or not.'

    Did Christ not say, "He who isn't with me is against me", or something along those lines?


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  • #5802
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Overheal wrote: »
    So the only thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is paranoia and racism. Perfect.

    I'd call it democracy.


  • #5803
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Overheal wrote: »
    So the only thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is paranoia and racism. Perfect.

    Does the bill even deny asylum seekers? I haven't read the document, but from what I've seen, it just requires the heads of the intelligence community to certify that each refugee doesn't pose a threat to security.


  • #5804
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Overheal wrote: »

    By the same token you have to appreciate this viewpoint is mirrored in the Middle East, with passages in other texts like the Bible being used to further the rhetoric. Schoolchildren (if they go to school) are taught that America (for the most part, but other interfering countries also) is pure evil and must be destroyed. And despite what we teach in schools, there are far too many people calling for the eradication of Islam, as a succinct counterpart to that.

    Equally wrong and should also be criticized - and absolutely is by nearly all Liberals. But why are so many Liberals so keen to defend Islam which is arguably the worst of all religions? I just don't get it. If we can rip the píss out of Christianity because the likes of Kim Davis refuses to issue gay marriage licenses, why can't we tear into Islam for facilitating the murder of innocent civilians?


  • #5805
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How could you read a bill they rushed through at this rate anyway.

    Besides, it still has to go through the Senate.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-approves-bill-to-pause-syrian-refugee-plan/

    It must also get 2/3rds vote in the Senate, in addition to the 2/3rds vote in the house in order for a veto to be negligible.

    For those interested in the existing rules for refugee screening, WSJ briefs it out: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/11/18/qa-how-does-the-syrian-refugee-screening-process-work/


  • #5806
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    But why are so many Liberals so keen to defend Islam which is arguably the worst of all religions?
    I'd argue scientology is a pretty bad religion. So yeah, it is arguable.


  • #5807
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I just don't get it. If we can rip the píss out of Christianity because the likes of Kim Davis refuses to issue gay marriage licenses, why can't we tear into Islam for facilitating the murder of innocent civilians?
    Bit of a difference: when we rip the piss out of Christianity, we aren't labeling an entire people or movement. If we did, I'd hold every Christian I saw to the reputation of the Westboro Baptist Church.


  • #5808
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Overheal wrote: »
    How could you read a bill they rushed through at this rate anyway.

    Besides, it still has to go through the Senate.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-approves-bill-to-pause-syrian-refugee-plan/

    It must also get 2/3rds vote in the Senate, in addition to the 2/3rds vote in the house in order for a veto to be negligible.

    For those interested in the existing rules for refugee screening, WSJ briefs it out: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/11/18/qa-how-does-the-syrian-refugee-screening-process-work/

    Like you I have only read what has been in the U.S. media. However there does appear to be a sea change since the Paris attacks.

    It should be interesting when the vote goes to the upper house.


  • #5809
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    This is why I've always been concerned by the Western fear of Iran -- there's strong pro-democracy activism within that society especially among the youth. Yet if we were getting Iranian immigrants people would panic!!

    A democratic and stable Iran is the only hope for peace in the Middle East. But that would be a threat to "interests" in the region -- certain groups wouldn't allow that to happen.

    What the West and i mean usa and britain did to iran is disgusting. Saddling them with a theocracy they haven't been able to escape from.


  • #5810
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Overheal wrote: »
    I'd argue scientology is a pretty bad religion. So yeah, it is arguable.

    I'd argue that Scientology is not even a Religion. I hate those bástards and deplore their blackmailing tactics. But at least they don't use L. Ron's texts to kill people!

    Interestingly though, there are some similarities between Scientology and Saudi Wahhabism. I read an interesting article that said that the same blackmail tactics are used by the Religious elite in KSA to keep the money men on board.

    I'd also argue that Islam is not really just a religion either. While on the surface, Islam is a religion, it is much more than that. It is an ideology that dictates how its adherents should live every aspect of their lives. It is a religion, political system, legal system and social instruction all rolled into one.

    Typing out loud here - but if we were to remove the "God" aspect from Islam and looked at it purely as a political and social ideology, would it be easier to criticize? We have no problem universally stating that National Socialism was an evil doctrine. If we subjected the political and social aspects of Islam to the same critical analysis, how would it stack up?


  • #5811
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Overheal wrote: »
    Bit of a difference: when we rip the piss out of Christianity, we aren't labeling an entire people or movement. If we did, I'd hold every Christian I saw to the reputation of the Westboro Baptist Church.

    Nobody I respect criticizes an entire people or movement. They, (me included) criticize the ideology. I think we all agree that the texts that the fundamentalist Christians cite are bullshít. Where is the similar criticism for the equivalent Quran and Hadith texts?

    It's not for us to solve that problem though, and the answers have to come from within the Muslim community. But we certainly shouldn't be giving them a free pass the way we have been. We need to challenge them to solve the problem and stop defending them regardless.


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  • #5812
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Geez I hope so.
    You talk of a 2016 rising . And you want a semi automatic gun.
    I should notice, we all should.
    Even if i'm way off the mark, I should notice.

    Don't know the man from adam but he was talking about a .22 rifle. You'd struggle to kill anything bigger than a rabbit with one.


  • #5813
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    kupus wrote: »
    When a million of them walk the streets and say not in my name then i will take it seriously. any gobshote can post anything online, look at this thread.


    "Muslims are not terrorists" ......
    ....ok however "most terrorists are muslim"
    Not even close


  • #5814
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    Like you I have only read what has been in the U.S. media. However there does appear to be a sea change since the Paris attacks.



    It should be interesting when the vote goes to the upper house.

    It hasn't even been a week since the attacks; I'd disagree that it is a sea change than a wave of mass hysteria.

    I'd also argue that Islam is not really just a religion either. While on the surface, Islam is a religion, it is much more than that. It is an ideology that dictates how its adherents should live every aspect of their lives. It is a religion, political system, legal system and social instruction all rolled into one.
    Just what a lot of Americans seem to want...
    Where is the similar criticism for the equivalent Quran and Hadith texts?
    Turn on the radio sometime, or go to the conservative websites: The Blaze, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, they'll cherry-pick the living **** out of that book for you.
    It's not for us to solve that problem though, and the answers have to come from within the Muslim community. But we certainly shouldn't be giving them a free pass the way we have been. We need to challenge them to solve the problem and stop defending them regardless.
    I completely agree. Where I disagree is in that a lot of people don't agree with you or I: they don't want the Muslims to solve this, they just want them gone by any means possible. Park 51 highlighted that fact all too well.


  • #5815
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Overheal wrote: »
    It hasn't even been a week since the attacks; I'd disagree that it is a sea change than a wave of mass hysteria.
    Just what a lot of Americans seem to want...

    Turn on the radio sometime, or go to the conservative websites: The Blaze, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, they'll cherry-pick the living **** out of that book for you. I completely agree. Where I disagree is in that a lot of people don't agree with you or I: they don't want the Muslims to solve this, they just want them gone by any means possible. Park 51 highlighted that fact all too well.

    Perhaps sea change is a wrong choice of phrase. Perhaps 'reasons ' or 'concerns' or 'excuses' would be a tad more apt. After all it was only 24 hour's after the attacks that the Poles made their statement refusing entry.


  • #5816
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Did I mention even after the attacks, the French pledged to keep their vow to continue admitting refugees?

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/french-president-francois-hollande-welcomes-refugees-paris-attack/story?id=35274658


  • #5817
    Red King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭Red King


    I might get criticised for this but one thing I have noticed in the past few months, and especially since the Paris attack, is the attitude of my Polish friends towards Muslims.

    They are shockingly xenophobic and anti-Muslim.

    Now, I have to say that I am rather taken aback by this as outside of this attiitude they are all really nice people. However the stuff they are saying both in person and online is really starting to make me reassess my friendship with some of them.


  • #5818
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Overheal wrote: »
    Did I mention even after the attacks, the French pledged to keep their vow to continue admitting refugees?

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/french-president-francois-hollande-welcomes-refugees-paris-attack/story?id=35274658

    ye did mention the attacks .


  • #5819
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    Don't know the man from adam but he was talking about a .22 rifle. You'd struggle to kill anything bigger than a rabbit with one.

    dont make things complicated for him now,lol


  • #5820
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    What is this whataboutery? If Zionists or Extremist Christians starting gunning 150 innocent people down in Europe based on the texts of their holy books then those ideologies will face the same criticisms from Europeans.

    They arent though.

    Zionists Jews killed 2,300 Palestinians in the Summer of 2014, over 75% of which were unarmed, non combatant civilians, 500 of which were children and hardly any worldwide criticism from world leaders or organisations and nobody holding all Jews responsible or calling for all Jews to come out against these atrocities and march to denounce same.


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  • #5821
    DubVelo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭DubVelo


    Red King wrote: »
    I might get criticised for this but one thing I have noticed in the past few months, and especially since the Paris attack, is the attitude of my Polish friends towards Muslims.

    They are shockingly xenophobic and anti-Muslim.

    Now, I have to say that I am rather taken aback by this as outside of this attiitude they are all really nice people. However the stuff they are saying both in person and online is really starting to make me reassess my friendship with some of them.

    And do you have Muslim friends just for balance, like? Just wondering if you'd heard the other side.


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