Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

m@cc@ · 19-11-2015 07:59PM

Depp wrote: »

Well so far you've only been stating the problems with Christianity and ignoring Islam, which is the topic of discussion. Yes Christianity has many problems I agree now can we put that to bed? Yes interpretations come into it that can't be denied but what other way would you interpret such cracking lines as;''Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them;'' ''Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the qu'ran'' and ''The Jews and Christians are perverts, fight them.'' They've clearly misinterpreted these lines allah was joking! Indeed the book wouldn't exist without people, without one particular person in fact, an insane murdering pedophile who was hailed as a prophet.

But I'm not stating problems with Christianity, I am stating problems with people's interpretation of words. So no, we can't put it to bed. I only mention Christianity as it's the one religion I'm most familiar with.

People have their own minds on how they want to take words on a book. If the words in the Qu'ran are a licence to go out and kill all who don't believe then why aren't all Muslims at it? I have many Islamic friends and as far as I know, none of them are planning to kill me and if they are, I must be one hard motherf***er to kill.

long range shooter · 19-11-2015 07:59PM

Nodin wrote: »

The truth eh? Whats that, exactly?

That more terror is on its way.

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:00PM

Nodin wrote: »

We have some 40,000 plus muslims living mostly in Dublin. I'm not that far from a mosque and an area where a large number live. Yet I haven't been chased down the isle of a supermarket by a man trying to behead me, ever.

Congratulations on that! I'm not saying every Muslim man and woman follows this line, I'm saying that it is present in the holy book of Islam that every Practising Muslim reads and holds as the word of god, and I believe this to be dangerous.

DubVelo · 19-11-2015 08:02PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Doesn't ANYBODY have quotes from the Quran that shows the book in a good light.

Sure, this one has been doing the rounds on social media and was even referenced by one of our own learned imams in a statement to the press:

5.32 ...if anyone kills a person it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind.

Religion of Peace, see?

Oh no, wait:

5.32
On account of his deed, We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person - unless in retribution for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
5.33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot, or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter.

Children of Israel = the Jews, just in case you missed that, so not actually addressed to muslims at all.

There's more about no escape for disbelievers from everlasting torment and cutting off the hands of thieves further down the very same page but yeah sure, religion of peace.

Nodin · 19-11-2015 08:07PM

Depp wrote: »

Congratulations on that! I'm not saying every Muslim man and woman follows this line,.............

Essentially you are.

I also find it amazing that you, a non-muslim, have managed to correctly interpret the Koran, rather than muslim scholars over the last few centuries.

Nodin · 19-11-2015 08:09PM

long range shooter wrote: »

That more terror is on its way.

Vague "o be scared" cack is the truth now? Groovy. Here's one - "They will eat us whilst we still live!!!!!!!" - that has a really truthy vibe to it.

Overheal · 19-11-2015 08:09PM

5.33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot, or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter.

Well then countries like the US and France, NATO, etc. should probably stop "spreading corruption in the land" ie. GTFO out the Middle East.

There's a similar passage in there about idolators, which is often attributed as infidels, but really is speaking to the other tribes in the text that continued to wage war against Muslims even after they were asked to stop. a Follow up passage points out that if aggressions stop and the perpetrators fulfill their treaties henceforth, there is to be peace.

Orangebrigade · 19-11-2015 08:09PM

Christianity doesn't have near the problems Islam has currently in the world. Anyone saying otherwise is either stupid or deluded or perhaps both.

You always get either apologists or liberals who think Islam is a race (rollseyes) trying to deflect and talk about Christianity as if some comparison can be drawn on the two religions in 2015, it is utterly insane but all so predictable, just as I said it would be on the night of the attacks on this very thread.

People always say they are fundamentalists and not Muslim but what are they fundamental about? The teachings of Muhammad is exactly what ISIS do which includes beheadings and forcefully trying to get people to convert to Islam which is what that tyrant Muhammad did in the 7th century.

Christians follow the message of Jesus who if going by all we know is a vastly superior person to Muhammad and I'm not even talking about spiritually as I don't believe in that. Just as a person and what we know from writings, even if you think Jesus didn't exist, his character" is miles better than Muhammad.

It's like people trying to argue that emperor palpatine is a better person than Luke Skywalker.

Overheal · 19-11-2015 08:11PM

mynameis905 wrote: »

Christianity has had a de facto reformation. Most people in Ireland identify as Catholic yet they use birth control, rarely go to mass, obtain divorces, support gay marriage etc. All diametrically opposed to traditional christian doctrine. Almost no one follows the bible literally besides a few fundamentalist christian groups.

Islam had a de facto reformation. Most Muslims in the US identify as Muslim yet they use alcohol, rarely go to mosque, etc. all diametrically opposed to traditional Muslim doctrine. Almost no one follows the Quran literally besides a few fundamentalist Muslim groups.

Wow this is easy.

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:11PM

m@cc@ wrote: »

But I'm not stating problems with Christianity, I am stating problems with people's interpretation of words. So no, we can't put it to bed. I only mention Christianity as it's the one religion I'm most familiar with.

People have their own minds on how they want to take words on a book. If the words in the Qu'ran are a licence to go out and kill all who don't believe then why aren't all Muslims at it? I have many Islamic friends and as far as I know, none of them are planning to kill me and if they are, I must be one hard motherf***er to kill.

Ok you have me Christianity is full of holes and humans are known to misinterpret things from time to time, well done. Now back to the conversation, I know several Muslims as well who harbor no hatred towards me, in fact they all claim to hate Daesh, which any intelligent human would. I'm not speaking out against non radical Muslims, I'm speaking out against Islam. If Islam is continued to be thought in its current form without reforms, the threat of groups such as Daesh and there ilk will continue to be a problem. Think about this, in the absence of Islam, Baghdadi could very well be as evil and sinister as he is and he very well may have a small following, but without Islam as justification would he be able to recruit followers as easily?

Overheal · 19-11-2015 08:13PM

Christianity doesn't have near the problems Islam has currently in the world. Anyone saying otherwise is either stupid or deluded or perhaps both.

Or they are having bombs dropped on their heads by countries who ostensibly would prefer to identify themselves either as Christian nations, or non-denominated (eg. the USA). As John Oliver pointed out in a great segment about drones: it has children literally scared to death of clear blue sky.

It's all a matter of perspective: if you live in the Middle East, the West is a threat. If you live in the West, the Middle East is a threat (and actually, the East too)

Nodin · 19-11-2015 08:13PM

Overheal wrote: »

Islam had a de facto reformation. Most Muslims in the US identify as Muslim yet they use alcohol, rarely go to mosque, etc. all diametrically opposed to traditional Muslim doctrine. Almost no one follows the Quran literally besides a few fundamentalist Muslim groups.

Wow this is easy.

I think you can't see how evil they are unless you have the special glasses. Take no chances.

Christy42 · 19-11-2015 08:14PM

kupus wrote: »

Welcome to the 4ds of liberal 101.

Deny
deflect
distort
defame

Its all they can do, when confronted by arguments that tax their minds.

Yup. All liberals are the same. I really can't even see what is being argued in this part of the discussion. People are arguing about the negative parts of Islam and then for some reason people are bringing Christianity into it. I have no idea what either of these have to do with this discussion. Really I don't.

Is there some sort of plan you want to enact when everyone agrees with you that Islam is bad? What then? You accept that many are leading perfectly fine, safe lives here so kicking them out seems unfair. Do we stop letting them in? How do you tell who is a muslim if they don't tell you? How do you plan to keep the ones out that just come in instead of going to specific border points?

bajer101 · 19-11-2015 08:15PM

Overheal wrote: »

Christianity needs a reformation where it is acknowledged that a prescriptive set of rules for life in the 1st Century isn't compatible with modern life.

I would tend to agree, but the difference is that there is a much smaller percentage of Extremist Christians, and they are not really engaged in violence. If there were large numbers of Christians involved in Inquisition type activities today, we would be denouncing them and blaming their religion and telling them that they have to reform. Christianity has undergone this major reformation, but Islam hasn't. But for some reason a large portion of the Liberal Left has no problem criticizing fundamentalist Christians like Kim Davis and scoffing at their religion, but they won't criticize Islam!

Saying that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam is the equivalent of saying that the Inquisition had nothing to do with Catholicism. I suspect that part of the reason why Liberals are reluctant to criticize Islam is that they would find themselves on the same side as genuine racists like the EDL and their ilk. I think we need to swallow that bitter pill and have the courage to face the fact that there is a problem with Islam and that the fact that the Quran is supposedly the literal word of Allah, and that it contains many passages promoting violence is a big contributing factor to ISIS and Islamic extremism.

Orangebrigade · 19-11-2015 08:15PM

Overheal wrote: »

Or they are having bombs dropped on their heads by countries who ostensibly would prefer to identify themselves either as Christian nations, or non-denominated (eg. the USA). As John Oliver pointed out in a great segment about drones: it has children literally scared to death of clear blue sky.

It's all a matter of perspective: if you live in the Middle East, the West is a threat. If you live in the West, the Middle East is a threat (and actually, the East too)

Being done by countries which aren't religious states. It isn't being done in the name of God unlike the majority of these Islamic groups.

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:18PM

Nodin wrote: »

Essentially you are.

I also find it amazing that you, a non-muslim, have managed to correctly interpret the Koran, rather than muslim scholars over the last few centuries.

Its not very hard to read words on a page, and I've stated I'm no expert and I just interpret the words I say laid out in front of me, also I've said I'd love a scholar of the qu'ran to step in and allay my fears and I have no problem sitting and talking with them and get to the bottom of it. However this has yet to happen and I'm going on the evidence in front of me, which is pretty damning, I dont particularly want to be beheaded.

wilhelm roentgen · 19-11-2015 08:20PM

Nodin wrote: »

I think you can't see how evil they are unless you have the special glasses. Take no chances.

Yeah, it improves 'division' no doubt about it

fed up sick and tired · 19-11-2015 08:23PM

Overheal wrote: »

Almost no one follows the Quran literally besides a few fundamentalist Muslim groups.

Indeed. The link between the Koran and fundamentalism is not easily acknowledged by some here.

Thanks.

bajer101 · 19-11-2015 08:27PM

Maajid Nawaz is an interesting fella and has a good perspective on the problem of Islamic extremism. Nawaz is a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, but has since denounced extremism and is now the chairman of Quilliam, a counter-extremism think tank that seeks to challenge the narratives of Islamist extremists. He wrote an excellent article about the British Left's refusal to tackle Islamism which is well worth a read.

chairman of Quilliam, a counter-extremism think tank that seeks to challenge the narratives of Islamist extremists

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:27PM

Nodin wrote: »

I think you can't see how evil they are unless you have the special glasses. Take no chances.

The reading glasses perhaps, you seem to have problems admitting the qu'ran says these things, just read through it, you don't even have to buy a copy its available in full for free online, then deny it is an evil book. If you have I apologize in full. Make your arguements against what I've interpreted from the book, not that ''well muslim scholars know better than you'' and ''youre wearing special glasses.

Bannasidhe · 19-11-2015 08:27PM

Depp wrote: »

Its not very hard to read words on a page, and I've stated I'm no expert and I just interpret the words I say laid out in front of me, also I've said I'd love a scholar of the qu'ran to step in and allay my fears and I have no problem sitting and talking with them and get to the bottom of it. However this has yet to happen and I'm going on the evidence in front of me, which is pretty damning, I dont particularly want to be beheaded.

May I ask if you have approached any Islamic scholar to talk about it?

long range shooter · 19-11-2015 08:29PM

Nodin wrote: »

Vague "o be scared" cack is the truth now? Groovy. Here's one - "They will eat us whilst we still live!!!!!!!" - that has a really truthy vibe to it.

Say that to the victins of the Paris attacks.

Nodin · 19-11-2015 08:29PM

Depp wrote: »

Its not very hard to read words on a page, and I've stated I'm no expert and I just interpret the words I say laid out in front of me,...............................

There are many muslim sects, Buddhist sects, hindu sects, Christian sects. If it was as easy as "read the book" this wouldn't happen.

Depp wrote: »

................ However this has yet to happen and I'm going on the evidence in front of me, which is pretty damning, I dont particularly want to be beheaded.

There are over five million muslims in france, and 8 headers shot a load of people the other night, all of whom are dead. Between 1969 and the 1990's in NI there would be dozens of attacks daily, emanating from a group based in a population of approximately 400,000. Have a think.

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:31PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

May I ask if you have approached any Islamic scholar to talk about it?

Not personally but I've emailed the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin inquiring about the possibility of doing such and I'm waiting to hear back from them.

m@cc@ · 19-11-2015 08:36PM

Depp wrote: »

Ok you have me Christianity is full of holes and humans are known to misinterpret things from time to time, well done. Now back to the conversation, I know several Muslims as well who harbor no hatred towards me, in fact they all claim to hate Daesh, which any intelligent human would. I'm not speaking out against non radical Muslims, I'm speaking out against Islam. If Islam is continued to be thought in its current form without reforms, the threat of groups such as Daesh and there ilk will continue to be a problem. Think about this, in the absence of Islam, Baghdadi could very well be as evil and sinister as he is and he very well may have a small following, but without Islam as justification would he be able to recruit followers as easily?

We are still on the conversation. Until you can make the distinction between Christian's interpretation of words and the Islamic interpretation of words, it will stay on topic. And as I've already said, I'm not having a go at Christianity.

Bannasidhe · 19-11-2015 08:37PM

Depp wrote: »

Not personally but I've emailed the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin inquiring about the possibility of doing such and I'm waiting to hear back from them.

Good for you.

I had many informative discussions back in the 80s with a Bengali Imam - can't say I was buying the whole 'interpretation' and 'context' hair splitting but then equally I didn't buy it from Rabbis or Pastors either.

Depp · 19-11-2015 08:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

There are over five million muslims in france, and 8 headers shot a load of people the other night, all of whom are dead. Between 1969 and the 1990's in NI there would be dozens of attacks daily, emanating from a group based in a population of approximately 400,000. Have a think.

There was much more than 8 people involved have you seen the news lately by any chance? They had a fairly substantial support network judging on evidence coming out. Again Ill state my case, I'm against Islam in its current form, not against non radical Muslim people. Daesh need to be wiped from the face of the earth and while this would end the violence for a time, young boys and girls would have the same ideals read to them from the book of god and another organisation would pop up in its place.

BorneTobyWilde · 19-11-2015 08:42PM

All these bombings of oil trucks, oil refineries so on are really going to annoy ISIS. I can see them retaliating hugely. They need to push forward and destroy them ,not just annoy them and wait for a huge response.

Nodin · 19-11-2015 08:45PM

Depp wrote: »

There was much more than 8 people involved have you seen the news lately by any chance? They had a fairly substantial support network judging on evidence coming out. ........

Then where are the daily attacks? Why is the metro still running? Why hasn't CDG been shut down at least once? Why aren't there shootings and bombings being reported? Five million muslims remember.

The Randy Riverbeast · 19-11-2015 08:46PM

Depp wrote: »

KKK no their actions were race based they didn't persecute based on a mans faith but on the colour of his skin. Indeed they may have used their christian faith to justify some of their actions, but they did so on misinterpretations of the bible not on the explicitly laid out instructions contained therein. They would have flourished under any faith.

The crusades, yes the christian leadership was directly at fault but that was the middle ages, and I like to think society has progressed in the last thousand years.

They did, they went after Catholics. They believed that Catholics were a threat to their culture as there was a surge of Irish immigrants.

Sounds quite familiar.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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