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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #5612
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    wes wrote: »
    Yeah, you see the fact still remains that no one agrees on what terrorism is exactly. The Global Terrorism Index is a think tank (plenty of those with fancy names around), and that doesn't change the fact that no one can agree what is terrorism.

    For example why weren't the mass killings from South Sudan included? Do they class that as a civil war? You could also argue that the attacks by Boko Haram and ISIS are also part of a civil war.

    Now to me it make exactly 0 sense that the mass killings in places like South Sudan are not terrorism, but Boko Haram and ISIS are. I fail to see any appreciable difference between the mass murdering lunatics in South Sudan, Iraq, Syria and Nigeria.

    What quantitative term describing Islamic terrorism as a portion of the whole, would you be happy to accept in order to progress the discussion ?

    'A lot...', 'Most of...', 'A Disproportionate Amount...', 'A Proportionate Amount...' ? ? ?


  • #5613
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    bajer101 wrote: »
    French authorities have confirmed that Abdelhamid Abaaoud is among those killed in yesterday's raid.

    Good. F*** him.


  • #5614
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Due to the nature of what is required of a religious person, and the social landscapes of the times when religious holy books were written, all the Abrahamic religions have a equal potential to be dangerous. And they all have followers both in the present day and historically, who have realised that potential. At present it is interpretations of Islam which can be attributed to the highest number of deaths via religiously motivated murder/terrorism, but this situation is not and has never been static, and those representing other religions really shouldn't be throwing stones at all Muslims, unless they want the same treatment the next time terrorism/murder is committed by a group/person claiming to represent their own religion.


  • #5615
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    What quantitative term describing Islamic terrorism as a portion of the whole, would you be happy to accept in order to progress the discussion ?

    'A lot...', 'Most of...', 'A Disproportionate Amount...', 'A Proportionate Amount...' ? ? ?

    If you want to make broad statements about who is doing more terrorism, then get everyone to agree on what it is.

    Until then, its more than fair to point out that any such stats are useless as no one agrees on what terrorism is. You can't say how much there is of something unless you can get everyone to agree on what that something is.

    So I made a simple point, that you didn't address at all, that you btw quoted, why are killings in South Sudan not terrorism, but Boko Haram are, In South Sudan groups have gone in villages and massacred everyone and Boko Haram have done the same, and yet on is terrorism and the other is not. Sorry, but I think it more than fair to point out facts like that in regards to the figures presented.


  • #5616
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Apparently they caught your man by tapping mobiles. Is it just me, or are ISIS actually a bit thick? Surely if you're the world's most wanted man you and your people would have the good sense to stay off the phones? Fat Freddie Thompson wouldn't be caught dead using a mobile to speak about illicit activity, but the mastermind of a terrorist attack, or his co-conspirators, would it seems.

    Not that I'm complaining, because I'm quite pleased that he's dead, but this might or might not suggest that the world is warring with a bunch of clowns.


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  • #5617
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Not that I'm complaining, because I'm quite pleased that he's dead, but this might or might not suggest that the world is warring with a bunch of clowns.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmKpm_9BtHc


  • #5618
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Apparently they caught your man by tapping mobiles. Is it just me, or are ISIS actually a bit thick? Surely if you're the world's most wanted man you and your people would have the good sense to stay off the phones? Fat Freddie Thompson wouldn't be caught dead using a mobile to speak about illicit activity, but the mastermind of a terrorist attack, or his co-conspirators, would it seems.

    Not that I'm complaining, because I'm quite pleased that he's dead, but this might or might not suggest that the world is warring with a bunch of clowns.

    It's not the first time they've been caught out by social media. When you're using what amounts to a bunch of crazed, indoctrinated civilians with little actual training bar in Allah Akhbar etcetera, some of them are going to be eejits in terms of security.


  • #5619
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Apparently they caught your man by tapping mobiles. Is it just me, or are ISIS actually a bit thick? Surely if you're the world's most wanted man you and your people would have the good sense to stay off the phones? Fat Freddie Thompson wouldn't be caught dead using a mobile to speak about illicit activity, but the mastermind of a terrorist attack, or his co-conspirators, would it seems.
    It's more complicated than that really.

    The key for this more likely lies in forensic analysis and location more than anything else. Picking up the phones of the original attackers, tracing those phones' whereabouts over previous days as well the whereabouts of phones that they were in contact with.

    Using this you can build up maps showing the most active locations of these people as well as the phones most active and use that to find the most important leads in the investigation.


  • #5620
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Due to the nature of what is required of a religious person, and the social landscapes of the times when religious holy books were written, all the Abrahamic religions have a equal potential to be dangerous. And they all have followers both in the present day and historically, who have realised that potential. At present it is interpretations of Islam which can be attributed to the highest number of deaths via religiously motivated murder/terrorism, but this situation is not and has never been static, and those representing other religions really shouldn't be throwing stones at all Muslims, unless they want the same treatment the next time terrorism/murder is committed by a group/person claiming to represent their own religion.

    Yeah, we must remember that the real victim in all of this is Islam.....

    Here's some solidarity from the main Muslim organization in Oz
    http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/mufti1_thumb.jpg


  • #5621
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    DubVelo wrote: »
    Peace march in Belfast, 1972: http://victorpatterson.photoshelter.com/image/I0000LCl_SWh9xUQ

    Women's peace march in Dublin, 1976: http://irishphotoarchive.photoshelter.com/image/I0000gKUYeEDIO2A

    Etcetera etc.

    Fair enough -- was just using Troubles as an example 'cos if I don't preface every post with an example of westerners having the same problem my post may be dismissed or immediately conflated with far-right views which i don't have. That being said -- many people may still know sympathisers (IRA/UVF) to this day.

    Any discourse between the muslim communities doesn't necessarily need to be so public either -- even within their homes and people's children, among schools etc... but the broader society shouldn't be criticised when we asked what's being done.


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  • #5622
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Does anyone know what is happening to the guy they arrested after the attack? One of the brothers that was killed in the raid.

    Hopefully he's getting the treatment that he deserves ...


  • #5623
    Depp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Depp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does anyone know what is happening to the guy they arrested after the attack? One of the brothers that was killed in the raid.

    Hopefully he's getting the treatment that he deserves ...

    A nice transfusion of pigs blood should do the trick!


  • #5624
    Darkglasses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,527 ✭✭✭✭Darkglasses


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Apparently they caught your man by tapping mobiles. Is it just me, or are ISIS actually a bit thick? Surely if you're the world's most wanted man you and your people would have the good sense to stay off the phones? Fat Freddie Thompson wouldn't be caught dead using a mobile to speak about illicit activity, but the mastermind of a terrorist attack, or his co-conspirators, would it seems.

    Not that I'm complaining, because I'm quite pleased that he's dead, but this might or might not suggest that the world is warring with a bunch of clowns.

    They're probably a mixed bag since they operate in cells.


  • #5625
    Depp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Depp


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    Apparently they caught your man by tapping mobiles. Is it just me, or are ISIS actually a bit thick? Surely if you're the world's most wanted man you and your people would have the good sense to stay off the phones? Fat Freddie Thompson wouldn't be caught dead using a mobile to speak about illicit activity, but the mastermind of a terrorist attack, or his co-conspirators, would it seems.

    Not that I'm complaining, because I'm quite pleased that he's dead, but this might or might not suggest that the world is warring with a bunch of clowns.

    Make no bones about it, while the guys at the bottom might be fairly rough and ready, at the top levels we're not dealing with a sham operation, its far from the crowd of illiterates in a cave thats suggested sometimes


  • #5626
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    seamus wrote: »
    It's more complicated than that really.

    The key for this more likely lies in forensic analysis and location more than anything else. Picking up the phones of the original attackers, tracing those phones' whereabouts over previous days as well the whereabouts of phones that they were in contact with.

    Using this you can build up maps showing the most active locations of these people as well as the phones most active and use that to find the most important leads in the investigation.

    It still comes across as amateur hour though, doesn't it? Whether it's through phonecalls being monitored or locations being mapped through previous calls, a mobile should never, ever lead to the death or capture of a supposed mastermind. But then you consider the theory that the people who they caught were planning additional attacks, on the airport and a building in the financial district. I mean, naivety on their part has probably just saved France hundreds of more innocent lives.
    Darkglasses wrote: »
    They're probably a mixed bag since they operate in cells.

    Even if they are a mixed bag in the smarts departments, we're not talking about rocket science I don't think. I'm sure a Syrian equivalent to Forrest Gump would have the sense to not plan a terrorist attack on Whatsapp. I'm being flippant there, but still.


  • #5627
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Depp wrote: »
    should be buried with a pig!
    Depp wrote: »
    A nice transfusion of pigs blood should do the trick!

    Because that wont have any repercussions... :rolleyes:


  • #5628
    Darkglasses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,527 ✭✭✭✭Darkglasses


    Depp wrote: »
    Make no bones about it, while the guys at the bottom might be fairly rough and ready, at the top levels we're not dealing with a sham operation, its far from the crowd of illiterates in a cave thats suggested sometimes

    Definitely not. I strongly recommend watching Vice News's old documentary about Isis, it was a real eye opener. They're incredibly powerful and sophisticated. Heartbreaking to see the extent to which the children have bought into their ideology. I'll post a link in a while if nobody else does


  • #5629
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    Footage from one of the cafes of the attack, no gore but from around 0:30 onwards you can see just how insanely lucky the 2 women were outside the cafe. The fúcker stood right above them to execute them both but his AK jammed and he ran off.



  • #5630
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does anyone know what is happening to the guy they arrested after the attack? One of the brothers that was killed in the raid.

    Hopefully he's getting the treatment that he deserves ...

    I heard they tried to make him listen to a Mumford and Sons album but Amnesty International and The Red Cross have intervened and taken it to a court in the Hague.


  • #5631
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    Definitely not. I strongly recommend watching Vice News's old documentary about Isis, it was a real eye opener. They're incredibly powerful and sophisticated. Heartbreaking to see the extent to which the children have bought into their ideology. I'll post a link in a while if nobody else does

    Also a good series of articles in The Daily Beast published this week. They are interviews with an ISIS defector who was fairly senior in their intelligence wing.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/15/confessions-of-an-isis-spy.html


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  • #5632
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    It still comes across as amateur hour though, doesn't it? Whether it's through phonecalls being monitored or locations being mapped through previous calls, a mobile should never, ever lead to the death or capture of a supposed mastermind. But then you consider the theory that the people who they caught were planning additional attacks, on the airport and a building in the financial district. I mean, naivety on their part has probably just saved France hundreds of more innocent lives.

    They use the Telegram app for their messaging communications, which is very secure.


  • #5633
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Aren't they? Anders Behring Breivik, a reportedly self described 'Christian Warrior' gunned down 77! Are all Christians worldwide responsible for his actions? Is Christianity as a religion to blame?
    Didn't he describe himself as "not an excessively religious man" and a "cultural Christian".
    Doesn't really sound like the words of a religious extremist to me.

    The main difference between Christian Extremism and Islamic Extremism is the support it has in the wider communities.
    I've never seen polls done on support for Christian violence, but I'd guess that it's pretty much non-existent.
    The same can't be said for Islamic inspired violence.
    And while I don't expect all Muslims to march every time there is violence perpetrated in their name.
    I would expect that as a community, they make greater efforts to stamp out violence and the support that it has.


  • #5634
    Hammer89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭Hammer89


    Depp wrote: »
    Make no bones about it, while the guys at the bottom might be fairly rough and ready, at the top levels we're not dealing with a sham operation, its far from the crowd of illiterates in a cave thats suggested sometimes

    I wouldn't dispute that at all. It just seems the blokes who carried out the Paris attacks, whether they're recognised by ISIS or just a couple of rogues doing a DIY job, lacked a bit of common sense. But I don't know. I'm out of my depth in ISIS discussions. This is the first independent thought I've ever formed on the blokes. But as I said, I wouldn't have a mobile anywhere near me in the planning, execution or aftermath of something like this.


  • #5635
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,955 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Didn't he describe himself as "not an excessively religious man" and a "cultural Christian".
    Doesn't really sound like the words of a religious extremist to me.

    The main difference between Christian Extremism and Islamic Extremism is the support it has in the wider communities.
    I've never seen polls done on support for Christian violence, but I'd guess that it's pretty much non-existent.
    The same can't be said for Islamic inspired violence.
    And while I don't expect all Muslims to march every time there is violence perpetrated in their name.
    I would expect that as a community, they make greater efforts to stamp out violence and the support that it has.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97776889&postcount=2341


  • #5636
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Hammer89 wrote: »
    It still comes across as amateur hour though, doesn't it? Whether it's through phonecalls being monitored or locations being mapped through previous calls, a mobile should never, ever lead to the death or capture of a supposed mastermind. But then you consider the theory that the people who they caught were planning additional attacks, on the airport and a building in the financial district. I mean, naivety on their part has probably just saved France hundreds of more innocent lives.
    Meh, not really. By the same token, it would be next to impossible to co-ordinate attacks on a large scale without the technology or the manpower.

    You're not dealing with Mossad or the CIA. They don't have the resources (financially or in terms of people) to obtain ultra-secure devices or run their own communications networks.

    If anything the fact that they could be traced through public phone networks and were using unencrypted communications tells of how small the operation is. While no doubt supported from overseas, it's pretty clear that the cell which carried out these attacks has only a tiny number of active people, in the tens at most, and isn't a massive conspiracy comprising thousands of members across europe.

    It is however also worth noting that these specific guys aren't aiming to carry out a series of attacks. Their goal is one big attack and then they'll flee to the middle east or die trying. So going to massive lengths to hide their activities is of less importance than it is to "traditional" terrorist organisations


  • #5637
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,085 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Footage from one of the cafes of the attack, no gore but from around 0:30 onwards you can see just how insanely lucky the 2 women were outside the cafe. The fúcker stood right above them to execute them both but his AK jammed and he ran off.


    Those ladies were so lucky that the gun jammed and I have no doubt he would have went into the cafe to finish who was in there. Shocking footage and it makes you wonder what goes through these pigs minds when they start shooting.


  • #5638
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    seamus wrote: »
    If anything the fact that they could be traced through public phone networks and were using unencrypted communications tells of how small the operation is. While no doubt supported from overseas, it's pretty clear that the cell which carried out these attacks has only a tiny number of active people, in the tens at most, and isn't a massive conspiracy comprising thousands of members across europe.

    I think this is one of the main issues with ISIS. They're not all following orders from the very top, and not all members are even known of by the leaders of ISIS (If there is such a thing). There's splinter cells all over the place, most unknown to each other but all claiming to be members of ISIS because of their beliefs. And ISIS is more than happy to claim them as their own following any attack.

    The issue then remains, how do you stop something that isn't contained? There's no start or end point...


  • #5639
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    Yosef.coen wrote: »
    I see you completely ignored my point about both Real Madrid and Maccabi Hafi are capable of playing football, however it is self evident to what football team is more successful. It is called a parable. If you lack the intellectual capacity to engage fully then at least try and be honest with other users who make an effort to explain.

    When you going to stop expanding your settlements and p1ssing everybody off, bra?


  • #5640
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    conorhal wrote: »
    Yeah, we must remember that the real victim in all of this is Islam.....

    Here's some solidarity from the main Muslim organization in Oz
    http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/mufti1_thumb.jpg

    They are correct. Even if you dont like to hear it.


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  • #5641
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    Depp wrote: »
    Make no bones about it, while the guys at the bottom might be fairly rough and ready, at the top levels we're not dealing with a sham operation, its far from the crowd of illiterates in a cave thats suggested sometimes

    And not too bothered about religion either i would imagine.


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