Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

KingBrian2 · 15-11-2015 07:45PM

Adding to my last point if we did have a warning over here of an attack like in Paris then Leinster House, The Phoenix Park and Dublin Castle are obvious locations for Dubliners to be evacuated to. It might sound absurd now only when you look at the context of this taking place then getting the cities population to safety becomes essential.

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 07:51PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

From his accent this guy sounds like an American, so from a country with a history of salving and who have been at war for 222 years of its 239 year history. A country whose foreign policy is responsible for a lot of the mess in the ME. Sorry but I just could not take this seriously.

Are you being serious? An accent doesn't change facts...

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 07:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

the pc brigade doesn't exist. its a mythical, made up, racist term made up by bigots and racists. it is thrown into racist rants in the name of trying to be derogatory, which thankfully it fails to do, dispite those using it failing to realize it doesn't work and never has, and it got old and boaring years a go. "call a spade a spade" is another favourite of such people. the only people who are called racists are racists. if your not one, you won't be called one.

Ah, my favourite poster. How have you been, EotR? Stuck it to any fascists and racists lately?

Isaiah · 15-11-2015 07:53PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So, just to make sure I understand you correctly.

You agree with gender equality but not with people who are against gender equality being challenged about their views. Is that correct?

And Gay Rights?

By the way

fascism

ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

left wing fascism is an oxymoron.

Left wing authoritarianism is left wing fascism. It is NOT an oxymoron. You might recall a left wing dictatorship called the USSR, only the largest country to ever exist and the largest social experiment in enforced left wing politics to ever exist.

Stalin and Lenin were LEFT and Fascist in all but name name, they also believed in equality for all men and women, banning religion and ensuring that no one was privileged, and that no one was allowed to express any opposition to any of these values, on pain of social exclusion and possibley losing your job, friends and prospects. These exact same tactics are regularly displayed by Left wing pressure groups when they carry out public bullying, slander and shaming of those who disagreed with them.

The IRA were also a left wing authoritarian group in their hayday. If you disagreed with them, you were a valid target to further their political motives.

Cuba another. Shall I go on? I am sure a dictionary definition of Fascism meant jack sh1t under the boot of the Communists.

To answer your questions

"You agree with gender equality but not with people who are against gender equality being challenged about their views. Is that correct?"

I agree that all men and women are equal and should be afforded equal rights and treatment before the law. I do not like the tactics I saw on display by the yes brigades, I do not like the tactics I regularly see on display in the media by militant feminists, I do not believe in gender quota's or positive discrimination.

And Gay Rights? I believe that Gay people have as much rights as I do and if they don't, they should. However I will not support any group that fights for these rights at the expense of open free debate, freedom of thought and free speech being held up as the highest value of our society.

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 07:53PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nawh mate. I'm a Gael.

Gall Gael?

Irish Praetorian · 15-11-2015 07:56PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree. There are a lot of spoon stirring this s*it and some damn irresponsible excuses for journalism (on all sides of the political spectrum) isn't helping.
Absolutely there are grounds for caution and increased security, but what concerns me is the glee with which some elements seek to fan the flames for their own agenda. I cannot help but think there are those out there - mainly on the Right - who welcome each new atrocity so they can scream 'Told Ya So!' and use the tragedy to impose their own brand of political extremism.

The problem here is that, for many on the right who have been talking about mass immigration, this is the vindication of their point of view - a significant segment of the population introduced with radically different views and attitudes (as borne out by significant polling on the matter) brought in by misguided politicos - that violence is now starting to erupt is just further confirmation of their views which in retrospect, now appear prescient.

From my perspective Islam is as much about peace as Christianity is about love. Nice words and all but...
My fear is that we will see Muslim communities attacked (there have been isolated attacks on 'Muslim looking' individuals as a Sikh friend of mine learned to his cost) as at that point the conflict moves towards potential civil war on our streets or modern day pogroms and this plays into ISIS's hands - sadly, I think the more the hate narrative gains traction and acceptability the closer we get to this possibility.
Having lived in the UK during the height of the 'Irish Republican' bombing campaign of the 80s I well remember the feelings of shame after Warrington, Omagh and how it felt to be Irish with the possibility that out of the blue with no warning someone would take 'offence' - actually happened me in a pub in South Shields - guy whose mate was killed in NI had a few pints under his belt and decided to seek revenge on the 'Paddy'.
Or sitting on a train in mid-bomb scare to have my English friend joke with their teeth clenched that I wasn't to say a word.
This are minor incidents but they eat at a persons sense of security and acceptance - and that is what Muslims are experiencing across the West now. It creates this sense of victim-hood and reinforces feelings of disconnection from the society you live in.

Nice words indeed. The problem with such attack on 'Muslim looking' individuals by street toughs is that the underpinning for such attacks does not lie with nuanced debates on Question Time or academics papers on the matter, it's simply a reflection of the experiences of people on the ground, bayed on in cases by the gutter press. The traditional problem with the interpretation of these events has been the 'holier than thou' approach taken by many leftish intellectuals who see anti-muslim sentiment as the problem rather than a symptom of the wider problem, which is Islamist terrorism. I only recently brought myself to watching the Tommy Robinson speech at the Oxford Union and I was surprisingly haunted by his account as a working class man of life at the coalface of these tensions, particularly his repeated refrain of 'What would you do?'

I defer to your experiences of anti-Irish sentiment in the 80s, but I must once again come back to the central point, namely that the cause of those attitudes lay with Republican Terrorism in the North and only the end of that conflict and the dissociation of it with the Irish identity could really heal those wounds. You might argue that such attitudes will alienate the Muslim community in Britain, but quite frankly with a few hundred Brits overseas fighting for ISIS and plenty more holding pretty abhorrent views perfectly peaceably, I'm not certain it can get much worse.

If we are not better than them then what are we trying to preserve?

Absolutely we need to combat the idea that an Islamic Caliphate such as you describe is in anyway shape of form desirable - but it's hard for Western governments to do so when we sell arms to an Islamic absolute monarchy that is fundamentalist and shown to be a source of funds for ISIS. We are engaging in political window dressing because we are trading with them whether it is via links with the Saudi's or purchasing looted art works on the black market.
If we were really serious we would stop the trade. Starve them of funds. Cut off their access to publicity.

We cannot combat this ISIS propagated illusion that IS would be some Muslim paradise where Allah will reward the faithful by disenfranchising moderate Muslims - we need to get them on side and work with them.
I do think the moderates need to do more within the Muslim community to make it clear that extremism isn't acceptable...

Our lives might be something worth protecting, if nothing else.

In any case, I hardly feel that the closing of Europe's doors to further migration from the Islamic world or even the clamping down on extremist views expressed peaceably will be the end of the European way of life. In the meantime however, 'at the coalface', having neighbourhoods and communities in Europe where none regard homosexuality as acceptable, where nearly half want the introduction of religious law, where a third want the return of a global Caliphate - that is a clear and immediate threat to Europe and a demonstrable representation of the failure to integrate new communities. If we want to empower moderate Muslims, maybe we shouldn't be treating them as a replenish-able source of cheap labour.

As a lesbian atheist I can assure you there are plenty of Irish Catholics out there ready and willing to judge people according to the doctrines of the RCC - met many of them while campaigning for SSM.
There are even a few posting here.

And wait until the Repeal the 8th Campaign gets going... the rosary beads will be out in force across the country.

We shall have to see on that count. In the interim as a gay man, I am more concerned about the young men I work with on the shop floor assuring me that the Jews carried out 9/11 than some old biddy going through a decade of the rosary.

In my experience those who spout the the regressive left rhetoric you describe are as socialist as Bertie Ahern - it is a trendy, smug, academic group speak favoured by the likes of Ivana Bacik and Linda Bellos - they have co-opted feminism as well and personally, they give me the gip but they do not worry me like the rhetoric of the Right because, lets be honest, we have seen what the Right is capable of when they get their way. The Regressive Lefties are all irritating talk and forms and tut tuting and lip service but essentially toothless.

I suspect 'regressive left' is a bit like 'trickle down economics' - everyone wants to attribute it to an opponent, no-one actually comes out and says that's what they are arguing. I think we can only judge people by their actions and opinions when it comes to this categorisation.

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2015 07:57PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So, just to make sure I understand you correctly.

You agree with gender equality but not with people who are against gender equality being challenged about their views. Is that correct?

And Gay Rights?

By the way

fascism

ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

left wing fascism is an oxymoron.

This argument is getting incredibly tired. Criticism is one thing. Boycotting, banning, bullying and harassing people into silence is another. It doesn't need to be stated anymore really, extremist language police and identity warriors are about as autocratic as it gets and are an egregious phenomenon through and through.

They're no better than the Islamist extremists who want to restrict free speech on religious grounds.

Isaiah · 15-11-2015 07:58PM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

And conveniently this belief will allow one carte blanche to be as racist, homophobic or whatever else as you like, as any disagreements with those type of stances can then mentally be written off as "left wing fascism".

Kind of a circular paradox actually.

Or more accurately just complete rubbish. It's a new one I'll give you that.

Only if I use the excuse for any of the above, which I am not. I am not homophobic, racist or anything like it. You only perceive a paradox due to your inability to think outside a given narrative.

_Tombstone_ · 15-11-2015 07:59PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Balkan countries like Bosnia ,Serbia, Macedonia are targets for ISIS. They want to expand into eastern European countries and establish themselves there. There is a real danger of small groups of ISIS supporters who have traveled as immigrants festering there in coming years. Needs monitoring before it happens.

Already happening...

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/15/world/paris-attacks/index.html

One of three bombers who detonated themselves at the Stade de France late Friday arrived on the Greek island of Leros on October 3 among numerous Syrian refugees, Amanpour reported, citing an unnamed French senator who was briefed by the Ministry of the Interior.

The man declared himself to be Syrian, said his name was Ahmad al Mohammad and was, under new procedures set up to help refugees, issued a new emergency passport or similar document.

From Leros, he traveled to Macedonia, Serbia and then Croatia, Amanpour reported.

The fingerprints from the bomber at the Stade de France match those taken when the man was issued his emergency travel document on Leros.

I was reading an article during the summer about a German girl that was travelling to the US supposedly for a holiday but actually planned to stay for work that she had arranged through PM on Facebook.

Officials were waiting for her on landing with printouts of all her PMs and promptly put her back on a plane home and told her not to come back.

Now you have that kind of spying going on ordinary folk but the powers that be miss these lads planning this online for months through PS4 and missed it.

Superhorse · 15-11-2015 07:59PM

Looking at that false alarm just shows the power these bas tards ISIS have over the people of Paris at present. Such a sad situation.

strelok · 15-11-2015 08:00PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This argument is getting incredibly tired. Criticism is one thing. Boycotting, banning, bullying and harassing people into silence is another. It doesn't need to be stated anymore really, extremist language police and identity warriors are about as autocratic as it gets and are an egregious phenomenon through and through.

They're no better than the Islamist extremists who want to restrict free speech on religious grounds.

look, i hate sjw's as much as the next pansexual trigender but you absolutely can not say they are anywhere near as bad as islamists. it's stubbing your toe versus lung cancer.

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2015 08:02PM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

And conveniently this belief will allow one carte blanche to be as racist, homophobic or whatever else as you like, as any disagreements with those type of stances can then mentally be written off as "left wing fascism".

Kind of a circular paradox actually.

Or more accurately just complete rubbish. It's a new one I'll give you that.

Read my post above. Nobody is suggesting that those with hateful views should not be criticised. However, people are suggesting that in the twenty first century people should be free to air their opinions. SJWs go beyond criticism - they lobby to get people fired, harass them off the internet, organise massive smear campaigns, lobby content providers to introduce restrictions on what opinions can be aired, etc.

This is not "criticism", this is using coercion to force people into not airing their opinions. There's a massive difference. To give you a very simple analogy: Me telling posters in this thread to stop tarring all Muslims with one brush is criticism. Me reporting their posts and trying to get them banned is using coercion. The latter is something I ideologically refuse to do and regard as an utterly toxic element of current debate, and that's what the whole SJW debate is really about.

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2015 08:05PM

strelok wrote: »

look, i hate sjw's as much as the next pansexual trigender but you absolutely can not say they are anywhere near as bad as islamists. it's stubbing your toe versus lung cancer.

Scale does not matter, it's the ideology which counts. Islamists say "photos of the prophet offend me, ergo nobody should be allowed to print them because my feelings matter more than their freedom". SJWs make exactly the same argument except about other things, not photos of the prophet. The subject of the publication is irrelevant, that argument in and of itself ("This offends me, I matter more than others so my offense should be pandered to more than others' freedom) is the toxic aspect. In that sense, ideologically, and specifically on the issue of free speech, they are indeed as bad as eachother.

Islamists are certainly worse in this regard in that they use far more extreme and violent measures to enforce their beliefs, but the actual core belief ("my feelings > your freedom") is identical.

Custardpi · 15-11-2015 08:10PM

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Already happening...

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/15/world/paris-attacks/index.html

I was reading an article during the summer about a German girl that was travelling to the US supposedly for a holiday but actually planned to stay for work that she had arranged through PM on Facebook.

Officials were waiting for her on landing with printouts of all her PMs and promptly put her back on a plane home and told her not to come back.

Now you have that kind of spying going on ordinary folk but the powers that be miss these lads planning this online for months through PS4 and missed it.

I doubt very much whether ISIS or similar groups are planning attacks like these through PS4 networks. They'll have learnt the lesson of multiple attacks being foiled through surveilance. You can certainly catch low level guys mouthing off on Twitter about their plans to head to Syria or whatever but the planning of this attack, to the extent that it was communicated about online (apparently several of the attackers were from the same family so were probably around the same places anyway) would have been done through encrypted communications, possibly on the Dark Net. Not impossible to crack by any means but a hell of a lot less trackable.

The capturing of all communications as the US & other authorities are doing is largely pointless as a security measure, apart from the odd petty victory like the above. It won't keep us safe but rather wastes resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 15-11-2015 08:13PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Read my post above. Nobody is suggesting that those with hateful views should not be criticised. However, people are suggesting that in the twenty first century people should be free to air their opinions. SJWs go beyond criticism - they lobby to get people fired, harass them off the internet, organise massive smear campaigns, lobby content providers to introduce restrictions on what opinions can be aired, etc.

This is not "criticism", this is using coercion to force people into not airing their opinions. There's a massive difference. To give you a very simple analogy: Me telling posters in this thread to stop tarring all Muslims with one brush is criticism. Me reporting their posts and trying to get them banned is using coercion. The latter is something I ideologically refuse to do and regard as an utterly toxic element of current debate, and that's what the whole SJW debate is really about.

None of the latter is taking place here, or is it? Please point out the coercion and smear campaigns, if that is the case. Is anyone not free to air their opinions? 272 pages seem to suggest the opposite.

I only see one poster claiming they're being harassed in this way, by "left wing fascists".

I'm not in disagreement with your points above, I was pointing out that the claim in this thread is rubbish.

TommyKnocker · 15-11-2015 08:15PM

Isaiah wrote: »

It's factual history. It's not open to your interpretation.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yeah because his nationality is total relevant to the point being made.

Factual or not, the phases "Let he is without sin" and "people in greenhouses" spring to mind.

So I will not be taking lessons on Morality or the "Evils of Islam" from a wingnut from a country who as I have said

Have been at war for 222 of their 239 year history
Have been involved with slaving themselves
Who fund and Support Saudi Arabia and Israel, two of the biggest violators of human rights on the planet
Whose foreign policy

Arming of "Moderate" militias to do their dirty work in the region
Invading and decimating of ME countries only to then walk away from them leaving them as failed states and the people to fend for them selves
indiscriminate killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents in the region
Rendition policy, holding people in "Gitmo" for years without charge or trial.
Use of and farming out of torture around the world in breach of international law

Have contributed greatly to the mess the ME is in today and the growth of radical islamists.

So just as I could not take seriously a lesson on women's safety from Jack the Ripper, neither could I take this fool seriously.

hatrickpatrick · 15-11-2015 08:17PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

A bombing of an abortion clinic 30 years ago and one deranged family. Are you honestly going to compare that to the attacks last night and the series of wars all over the middle east finding it's way into Europe with the intention of establishing a caliphate?

The wars all over the middle east were caused by the West. This is indisputable. Sweet Jesus, are people honestly this forgetful? Isis had absolutely no power before the Americans created a political vacuum in Iraq. The reason the Middle East is so full of dictatorships which have not been overthrown is that the West gives them weapons in exchange for loyalty. Saudi Arabia is where this extreme form of Islam was born and raised, and yet nothing will happen because where the Saudi regime is the devil, the West has sold its soul to them.

None of this in any way invalidates that the people who attacked Paris on Friday night were evil animals, but people need to look beyond the specifics and take in the big picture. The only reason the Middle East is currently a massive warzone is Western interference. The only reason ISIS gained power in Iraq was because of Western interference. The only reason Iran is a theocratic hellhole where it used to be a functioning democracy, is Western interference.

Until we as a society stand up and get the Western political establishment with all its vested interests out of government, this situation will continue to get worse every year. That's not apologist, that's merely stating unfortunate facts and offering solutions as to how we can change those facts.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 15-11-2015 08:18PM

Custardpi wrote: »

The capturing of all communications as the US & other authorities are doing is largely pointless as a security measure, apart from the odd petty victory like the above. It won't keep us safe but rather wastes resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Totally, the mass online surveillance and privacy invasion since 9/11 have proved pretty much worthless.

15-11-2015 08:18PM

I was waiting for it to happen, and sure enough the media have already started to run stories explaining how the terrorists were nice, normal boys in their youth.

Why does the media consistently ask why they are doing it, and run stories of how great the terrorist were in their youth?

I never remember similar stories about IRA, UVF or even the likes of Fred West or Anders Breivik.

Strange pathology the media have.

questionmark? · 15-11-2015 08:20PM

end of the road wrote: »

the pc brigade doesn't exist. its a mythical, made up, racist term made up by bigots and racists. it is thrown into racist rants in the name of trying to be derogatory, which thankfully it fails to do, dispite those using it failing to realize it doesn't work and never has, and it got old and boaring years a go. "call a spade a spade" is another favourite of such people. the only people who are called racists are racists. if your not one, you won't be called .

What utter rubbish. The PC Brigade is very much real and it sounds like your one of them.

Isaiah · 15-11-2015 08:20PM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

None of the latter is taking place here, or is it? Please point out the coercion and smear campaigns, if that is the case. Is anyone not free to air their opinions? 272 pages seem to suggest the opposite.

I only see one poster claiming they're being harassed in this way, by "left wing fascists".

I'm not in disagreement with your points above, I was pointing out that the claim in this thread is rubbish.

Have you slept thought the past 2 years in Europe?

Isaiah · 15-11-2015 08:22PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Factual or not, the phases "Let he is without sin" and "people in greenhouses" spring to mind.

So I will not be taking lessons on Morality or the "Evils of Islam" from a wingnut from a country who as I have said
Have been at war for 222 of their 239 year history

Have been involved with slaving themselves

Who fund and Support Saudi Arabia and Israel, two of the biggest violators of human rights on the planet

Whose foreign policy

Arming of "Moderate" militias to do their dirty work in the region

Invading and decimating of ME countries only to then walk away from them leaving them as failed states and the people to fend for them selves

indiscriminate killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents in the region

Rendition policy, holding people in "Gitmo" for years without charge or trial.

Use of and farming out of torture around the world in breach of international law

Have contributed greatly to the mess the ME is in today and the growth of radical islamists.

So just as I could not take seriously a lesson on women's safety from Jack the Ripper, neither could I take this fool seriously.

So an individual American giving a factual account about things that actuall happened in the past is now representative of American government policy since it's inception?

You realize that you are saying that you choose to ignore facts because the person stating them is from a country that offends you?

15-11-2015 08:23PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The wars all over the middle east were caused by the West. This is indisputable. Sweet Jesus, are people honestly this forgetful? Isis had absolutely no power before the Americans created a political vacuum in Iraq. The reason the Middle East is so full of dictatorships which have not been overthrown is that the West gives them weapons in exchange for loyalty. Saudi Arabia is where this extreme form of Islam was born and raised, and yet nothing will happen because where the Saudi regime is the devil, the West has sold its soul to them.

None of this in any way invalidates that the people who attacked Paris on Friday night were evil animals, but people need to look beyond the specifics and take in the big picture. The only reason the Middle East is currently a massive warzone is Western interference. The only reason ISIS gained power in Iraq was because of Western interference. The only reason Iran is a theocratic hellhole where it used to be a functioning democracy, is Western interference.

Until we as a society stand up and get the Western political establishment with all its vested interests out of government, this situation will continue to get worse every year. That's not apologist, that's merely stating unfortunate facts and offering solutions as to how we can change those facts.

Correlation and causation fallacy.

Isis have been around since 1999, before Iraq war and 9/11.

I would argue the rise of the internet, and the Arab spring have been far more of a factor in their rise than any war by the "West".

Anyway, whenever the West has gotten involved it has usually been for the purpose of saving lives rather than taking them indiscriminately. I don't remember people marching in the streets to stop involvement in Libya or Syria. If anything I think most people largely supported intervention in order to save lives.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 15-11-2015 08:24PM

Isaiah wrote: »

So an individual American is now representative of American government policy since it's inception?

Judging a huge group of people from the actions of a few? Never!

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 08:26PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

So just as I could not take seriously a lesson on women's safety from Jack the Ripper, neither could I take this fool seriously.

So, every American is responsible for the actions of the Government, and he should be completely discredited because of his accent?

Say it with me, loud and proud: Not all Muslims Americans are terrorists.

Samaris · 15-11-2015 08:26PM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

Judging a huge group of people from the actions of a few? Never!

If only more people could remember this.

Custardpi · 15-11-2015 08:28PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The wars all over the middle east were caused by the West. This is indisputable. Sweet Jesus, are people honestly this forgetful? Isis had absolutely no power before the Americans created a political vacuum in Iraq. The reason the Middle East is so full of dictatorships which have not been overthrown is that the West gives them weapons in exchange for loyalty. Saudi Arabia is where this extreme form of Islam was born and raised, and yet nothing will happen because where the Saudi regime is the devil, the West has sold its soul to them.

None of this in any way invalidates that the people who attacked Paris on Friday night were evil animals, but people need to look beyond the specifics and take in the big picture. The only reason the Middle East is currently a massive warzone is Western interference. The only reason ISIS gained power in Iraq was because of Western interference. The only reason Iran is a theocratic hellhole where it used to be a functioning democracy, is Western interference.

Until we as a society stand up and get the Western political establishment with all its vested interests out of government, this situation will continue to get worse every year. That's not apologist, that's merely stating unfortunate facts and offering solutions as to how we can change those facts.

There is no doubt that Western intervention has been disastrous in the Middle East & has helped create the instability which groups like ISIS thrive on. However, to say that this is the only factor is merely self-flagellation for its own sake. An expansionist, intolerant strand of Islam predates 2003 & indeed 1953. That is not to absolve people like Bush & Blair of their folly but merely to observe that it's not all about us. Not everyone outside the West waits passively for the US, Britain etc to pull their strings like marionettes. Plenty of them have been & are quite capable of agression, anti-intellectualism & sectarian hatred under their own steam.

Eugene Norman · 15-11-2015 08:29PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Factual or not, the phases "Let he is without sin" and "people in greenhouses" spring to mind.

So I will not be taking lessons on Morality or the "Evils of Islam" from a wingnut from a country who as I have said
Have been at war for 222 of their 239 year history

Have been involved with slaving themselves

Who fund and Support Saudi Arabia and Israel, two of the biggest violators of human rights on the planet

Whose foreign policy

Arming of "Moderate" militias to do their dirty work in the region

Invading and decimating of ME countries only to then walk away from them leaving them as failed states and the people to fend for them selves

indiscriminate killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents in the region

Rendition policy, holding people in "Gitmo" for years without charge or trial.

Use of and farming out of torture around the world in breach of international law

Have contributed greatly to the mess the ME is in today and the growth of radical islamists.

So just as I could not take seriously a lesson on women's safety from Jack the Ripper, neither could I take this fool seriously.

All of your attacks on American foreign policy ring true, but you still don't get that that's irrelevant to the video posted. That's a logical fallacy.

If some left wing American criticises France for not integrating it's Muslim population that statement needs to be debated on its merits rather than criticising the US for once being slave holding society etc.

15-11-2015 08:29PM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

Judging a huge group of people from the actions of a few? Never!

There is a distinct theme running through the muslim world that makes them more likely to commit religious violence against innocent victims. The evidence is in Paris, Toronto, London, New York, Sydney, Nigeria, Eastern China.

Why is it always muslims? Why is it never Syrian Christians or Kurds who do these acts against the West? They are equally if not more affected by any western interference.

questionmark? · 15-11-2015 08:30PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The only reason Iran is a theocratic hellhole where it used to be a functioning democracy, is Western interference.
.

Funnily enough that hellhole you refer to is probably one of the safest if not the safest country in the middle east.

Do they do things differently than us but the country is stable and if it wasn't for the US keeping the Saudis happy with sanctions against them, their economy would be in a lot better place than what it is. Women can drive, children can go to school etc... whilst they may not have 'free' journalism like we know in the west the fact is if the rest of the middle east was run like Iran we wouldn't have seen what happened in Paris on Friday.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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