Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Depp · 14-11-2015 08:31AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Of the recent mass shootings in the US, which ones were carried out by Muslims?

Sorry i wasnt aware this was the 'mass shootings in the us' thread, keep it on topic and before you spout some other bull**** to defend the 'peaceful religion' educate yourself

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

_Brian · 14-11-2015 08:33AM

Depp wrote: »

this is the moment we're going to look back on that changed it all, and all you bleeding heart 'islam is not the problem' fools will realise how stupid you have been

I think your underestimating people in general.
Islam or Christian I you give people a cause to bomb and kill over there are people among every religion that come forward and get their hands dirty.
Here is a list of bombings /. Atrocities and I'm sure not one Islamic religion based person was involved. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process

It's not different it's people reacting to what they see as a superpower or group of superpowers coming into their country and interfering, planting governments and killing civilians.

I'd wager that if American drones came into Ireland and levelled a few villages killing hundreds of civilians to get at a small number of "radicals", I'd wager I could round up a group of people capable of doing just what happened last night. We irish have proved in the last 50 years that we are capable of just that.

I'm not excusing what is going on. I'm just asking people to understand how a small number of people from any religion, creed or ethnic background can be radicalised and turned into cold blooded killers. We should never go down the route of all Muslims, all Syrians, all Jews, all Protestants or all of any group should be blamed or "sent back",

mynameis905 · 14-11-2015 08:35AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

I'll wager a lot of these murderers were born and raised in France, just like the Charlie Hebdo killers. France has tens of thousands of disaffected 2nd and 3rd generation North and Sub Saharan Africans living in the worst estates with no prospect of work. These are the breeding grounds for extremism not refugees from war zones.

+1

It's the second generation immigrants in France that are becoming the most radicalised. There are huge parts of Paris that are complete and utter shítholes and the vast majority living there are immigrants from the Maghreb. Massive unemployment, no education and high rates of disaffected young men looking for some kind of purpose creates the perfect breeding ground for extremism.

We have little to fear from the refugees from war zones currently arriving in Europe now - it's their descendants that will cause problems a generation or so from now.

Depp · 14-11-2015 08:35AM

_Brian wrote: »

I think your underestimating people in general.
Islam or Christian I you give people a cause to bomb and kill over there are people among every religion that come forward and get their hands dirty.
Here is a list of bombings /. Atrocities and I'm sure not one Islamic religion based person was involved. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process

It's not different it's people reacting to what they see as a superpower or group of superpowers coming into their country and interfering, planting governments and killing civilians.

I'd wager that if American drones came into Ireland and levelled a few villages killing hundreds of civilians to get at a small number of "radicals", I'd wager I could round up a group of people capable of doing just what happened last night. We irish have proved in the last 50 years that we are capable of just that.

I'm not excusing what is going on. I'm just asking people to understand how a small number of people from any religion, creed or ethnic background can be radicalised and turned into cold blooded killers. We should never go down the route of all Muslims, all Syrians, all Jews, all Protestants or all of any group should be blamed or "sent back",

Read the quran buddy and then come back to me saying it has nothing to do with Islam

also, atrocities commited by the IRA dont come into a play here, I'm sure there is a ''Ira Bombings' thread somewhere go find it and sprout your ****e there

from_atozinc · 14-11-2015 08:39AM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Immature. I did not say I would be over the moon, just that I am mature enough to not condemn all Muslims in the face of these atrocities. Very different from what you are implying I meant, actually.

Fair play to you. That no condemning will get you places.

DulchieLaois · 14-11-2015 08:41AM

Why are people afraid to protect ourselves cause if we do or say something against Muslim and their beliefs, then we are seen as racists or bigots yet Muslims appear to do anything they want and have no fear of what anyone thinks off them cause fear is their protector.

Samaris · 14-11-2015 08:45AM

from_atozinc wrote: »

Fair play to you. That no condemning will get you places.

Further than blind hate-for-hate will.

The people fleeing at the moment are fleeing from these same people, this same ideology. To punish the innocent for the acts of others - that is what leads to hatred and resentment down the line. WWII being an example of that sort of thinking.

There's a lot of innocent people that are going to be affected by what's happened, and some of them haven't felt the consequences that they themselves have done nothing to bring about, bar to hold a certain passport.

Sunflower 27 · 14-11-2015 08:45AM

from_atozinc wrote: »

Fair play to you. That no condemning will get you places.

I condemn those that carried out theses attrocities, not everyone else. But yeah, I've done well so far alright

from_atozinc · 14-11-2015 08:48AM

Samaris wrote: »

Further than blind hate-for-hate will.

The people fleeing at the moment are fleeing from these same people, this same ideology. To punish the innocent for the acts of others - that is what leads to hatred and resentment down the line. WWII being an example of that sort of thinking.

There's a lot of innocent people that are going to be affected by what's happened, and some of them haven't felt the consequences that they themselves have done nothing to bring about, bar to hold a certain passport.

Let's just open the flood gates then with open arms. You can put a few of them up in your gaff. Good man.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 14-11-2015 08:49AM

Depressing reading in this thread

leavingirl · 14-11-2015 08:52AM

Northern Monkey wrote: »

You want to see a video of people dying?

GTFO...

So you don't need any proof? Believing the MSM again

Akrasia · 14-11-2015 08:52AM

The ultra national right are loving this unfortunately (:

We knew that this day would come. It's time for the ordinary Muslims to stand together with the Christians, and atheists in condemning religious extremism of all faiths.

Anyone who says 'Religion has nothing to do with this' is part of the problem, but so is anyone who says that all Muslims are to blame.

acb121 · 14-11-2015 08:52AM

Depp wrote: »

this is the moment we're going to look back on that changed it all, and all you bleeding heart 'islam is not the problem' fools will realise how stupid you have been

I'm afraid your completly, utterly, totally wrong.

9/11 wasn't the moment.

Bali wasn't the moment.

Madrid wasn't the moment.

London wasn't the moment.

Belsan wasn't the moment.

They will just keep saying " Nothing to do with Islam ".

By the way I am ashamed to post a list of events that have effected mainly White Westerners. But its just these things make the news.

On a daily basis in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Islamic terrorism is a daily basis, on a macro level. If you are the wrong sort of muslim, a Christian, a Jew, an Allah forbid Homosexual, a woman, you are terrorised on a daily basis by Islam, by your neighbors. Simply walking to the shops. Nevermind at your place or religious worship where a handgrenade through the door is a common occourance.

Boko Haram killed hundreds of Black Africans in a villages and it never even made the news. It was 7 days before even the Nigerian media reported on it.

Our moronic liberal touchy feely society will never have " that momement ".

And eventuallly, there will be people in Europe experiencing the kind of daily terrorism that those in Asia do.

BoJack Horseman · 14-11-2015 08:55AM

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

Depressing reading in this thread

Indeed, the collective cognitive dissonance is kicking in again.
- There is no problem with Islam.
- It's probably France's fault anyway....

.... And we are back to the delusioned, comfortable status quo.
There will be a next time,but the resolve of collective self blame is unwavering.

acb121 · 14-11-2015 08:55AM

Akrasia wrote: »

The ultra national right are loving this unfortunately (:

We knew that this day would come. It's time for the ordinary Muslims to stand together with the Christians, and atheists in condemning religious extremism of all faiths.

Anyone who says 'Religion has nothing to do with this' is part of the problem, but so is anyone who says that all Muslims are to blame.

I think you will find there are very few blaming " all Muslims ".

I think you will find people are more adept at analysing events than you think.

People are blaming " Islam ".

All faiths are not as enthusiastic and prolific as Islam in religous extremism and terrorism.

" Ordianary " muslims have been indoctinated to believe that every human being on the planet must submit to Allah. So there is a bit of theological problem

Samaris · 14-11-2015 08:58AM

from_atozinc wrote: »

Let's just one the flood gates then with open arms. You can put a few of them up in your gaff. Good man.

What's your solution? Sent in the army in Calais? Shoot a few hundred refugees? That'll show them. Send them all back to Syria? How many of them were fleeing murder or being drafted into armies in the first place?

In the last 100 years, how many Irish have gone to England in search of a better life - and some of them went to bomb; to kill and maim for an ideology. How much better do you think we'd all be off if Britain had said "No Irish - some of you are killers" and closed the gates? Or Europe, if it comes to that.

Honestly, when you go out today, just look around you; how many people from that whole region do you see going about their everyday lives, how many Muslims do you see? Deport the lot? After all, some of them might have kids that could become radicalised.

We live in a society now where we punish the guilty for their actions. We don't punish people for sharing a passport or nationality with murderers. If we did, we'd keep the Americans out - some of them could be KKK. Europe would keep Irish out - some of them could be IRA. Spain would lock off the northern border and not let those regioners in - some of them could be ETA.

The ideology of fear is what you're preaching. You are falling into the trap that murderers are setting for you - spread terror.

CB19Kevo · 14-11-2015 09:04AM

I think a balance should be struck here.
We cant really go down the route of deporting Muslims,But i do believe we should bring in legislation to ensure we can lock up those who incite hatred and extra anti terror measures,Maybe we should be thinking about taking security serious in this country and actually having a adequate police force which has enough armed units.

I do think Europe has taken enough refugees (Well too many) and the borders should be sealed,As for those who are already here either they should now be fully processed and risk accessed and deported if not meeting a criteria or otherwise be spread out and supported to gain employment.

I have worked with and in the past been friends with Muslims,And on a individual basis i think they can be very nice people,
However the religion is not good for any western society,At it's very core is hate and intolerance.And i do believe that Europe's principals and overall structure are at risk of being ripped apart because of this.

For those who say Islam is not the problem,I believe you are wrong in saying this,However you may be saying this because we cannot be seen to tar over a billion people as being a issue.I feel however that if Islam continues to increase the world will suffer,And Europe itself may crumble.

What happened last night cannot be justified,But its just another damaging mark imposed by a backward religion just like the 7/7 bombings,Lee rigby murder and 9/11 to name but a few.We have a major problem here and i think people need to face a few realities even if it may be viewed as not PC.

acb121 · 14-11-2015 09:04AM

Samaris wrote: »

What's your solution? Sent in the army in Calais? Shoot a few hundred refugees? That'll show them. Send them all back to Syria? How many of them were fleeing murder or being drafted into armies in the first place?

Considering most of the folk in Calais are not Syrian, but Somalian, Eritrean, Nigerian and various other African countries, as well as Pakistani, Afghani and from various "stans"

Not many. They are in Calais for the bountiful UK. They have crossed the entire European continent. They could have stopped fleeing several countries ago.

Flippyfloppy · 14-11-2015 09:05AM

Why can't some people understand the difference between Islamic extremists & normal , every day good Muslims who don't take the outdated Koran up the wrong way?

Paramite Pie · 14-11-2015 09:05AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

I'll wager a lot of these murderers were born and raised in France, just like the Charlie Hebdo killers. France has tens of thousands of disaffected 2nd and 3rd generation North and Sub Saharan Africans living in the worst estates with no prospect of work. These are the breeding grounds for extremism not refugees from war zones.

But that's part of the problem -- if we can't support or help the current disaffected generations how will support the next?? Those immigrants and refugees that are coming won't get such support either. Their 2nd & 3rd generation will be in the same situation as well. Unless we can over turn decades of social isolation, prejudice and poverty in one generation -- which is unlikely.

Most wont become terrorists (of course) but all the urban phenomena associated with ghettoization will apply. And the breeding grounds for radicalism will only grow and grow. That's a legitimate fear.

Samaris · 14-11-2015 09:07AM

acb121 wrote: »

Considering most of the folk in Calais are not Syrian, but Somalian, Eritrean, Nigerian and various other African countries, as well as Pakistani, Afghani and from various "stans"

Not many. They are in Calais for the bountiful UK. They have crossed the entire European continent. They could have stopped fleeing several countries ago.

Aah, ok, so shoot Syrians, Somalians, Eritreans, Nigerians and lots of -stans too.

Mind you, the other chap who wants to "nuc" [sic] the whole Middle East rather covers that too. /throws up hands.

Fortunately the people in this thread don't run the world. We'd all be a hella more much fooked if they did.

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Why can't some people understand the difference between Islamic extremists & normal , every day good Muslims who don't take the outdated Koran up the wrong way?

The same way we all know that all Christians are Westboro Baptist Church and all whites are KKK...oh wait.

There is a moderate middle ground, people! It's not a case of either wanting to kill'em all or "open the floodgates".

ceadaoin. · 14-11-2015 09:07AM

elsa21 wrote: »

Having read the forums tonight across many websites and the odd comment here, It's so ignorant to turn around and say Islam is the problem. What happened tonight was horrific and awful to witness, but people need to get their facts straight, Islam is a religion and there are many honest Islamic people who are not terrorists or who support the murders that occured tonight. There is a huge difference between Islamic terrorists/Extremists and a person who follows the Islamic faith.

Once again like when 9/11 happened, emotions and fear are going to run high tonight and the coming days and we need to ground ourselves and not tar a particular group for another groups evil doings. It is easy to resent and target people when we are angry, and that's how hatred spreads. Isis are evil, terrorists and Islamic extremists are evil, but there are so many good Muslim people out there as well who tonight all over the world and particularly in France are fearing the retribution and treatment they are going to face from people from tomorrow onwards. We should be standing together and condemning the terrorists, not the faith.

Islam is the problem. These people are committing these atrocities in the name of Islam and are supported in that by a significant minority of Muslims.

I can see that and still understand that the majority of Muslims are not extremists.

_Brian · 14-11-2015 09:07AM

from_atozinc wrote: »

Nuc the whole of the Middle East would be a start.

Classy. Let's reply with some genocide. That's always worked well in the past.

from_atozinc · 14-11-2015 09:09AM

Samaris wrote: »

Aah, ok, so shoot Syrians, Somalians, Eritreans, Nigerians and lots of -stans too.

Mind you, the other chap who wants to "nuc" [sic] the whole Middle East rather covers that too. /throws up hands.

Fortunately the people in this thread don't run the world. We'd all be a hella more much fooked if they did.

The same way we all know that all Christians are Westboro Baptist Church and all whites are KKK...oh wait.

There is a moderate middle ground, people! It's not a case of either wanting to kill'em all or "open the floodgates".

And you don't think we are fooked already !!

Depp · 14-11-2015 09:10AM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

But that's part of the problem -- if we can't support or help the current disaffected generations how will support the next?? Those immigrants and refugees that are coming won't get such support either. Their 2nd & 3rd generation will be in the same situation as well.

Most wont become terrorists but all the urban phenomena associated with ghettoization will apply. And the breeding grounds for radicalism will only grow and grow. That's a legitimate fear.

The problem isnt where theyre from, its that they follow the Quran, dont believe me google it and have a flick through its pages, readily available for free online, we need to stop this liberal ideal that its more important to protect 'minorities' from 'marginalization' than it is to protect people from being murdered

_Brian · 14-11-2015 09:12AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Why can't some people understand the difference between Islamic extremists & normal , every day good Muslims who don't take the outdated Koran up the wrong way?

Because it suits their narrow minded own version of extremism thinking that this is all happening because all them Muslims are radical Islamic murderers in waiting and we should do something with them all to save ourselves.

DubVelo · 14-11-2015 09:13AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Why can't some people understand the difference between Islamic extremists & normal , every day good Muslims who don't take the outdated Koran up the wrong way?

Probably because it's 'normal' to drum an ideological hatred of all non-muslims into children at school.

And what makes you think they're taking the Koran up the wrong way?

acb121 · 14-11-2015 09:14AM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

But that's part of the problem -- if we can't support or help the current disaffected generations how will support the next?? Those immigrants and refugees that are coming won't get such support either. Their 2nd & 3rd generation will be in the same situation as well.

Most wont become terrorists but all the urban phenomena associated with ghettoization will apply. And the breeding grounds for radicalism will only grow and grow. That's a legitimate fear.

My heart bleeds for them.

Britain has millions of immigrants, from every country on every continent.

The immigrants in Britain who are "victims" of ghettoisation and poverty are Somalians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

Somalians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, pro-rata, cost the UK more in social housing and all manner of benefits than any other communities. They are a net drain on society.

They have had the SAME CHANCE as the Indians, the Chinese, the Sri Lankans, the Kenyan Asians, the Nigerians, the Irish, the Polish, various Eastern Europeans, all the other major immigrant groups. They have had the SAME TIME that other communities have had to stand on their own two feet.

In fact, they had far longer than the Poles.

What do Somalians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have in common ?

Give you a clue, it begins with I.

Depp · 14-11-2015 09:14AM

Samaris wrote: »

The same way we all know that all Christians are Westboro Baptist Church and all whites are KKK...oh wait..

all whites dont hold the kkk instructional manual as their religious text and just choose not to follow parts of it, get real

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-11-2015 09:15AM

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Of the recent mass shootings in the US, which ones were carried out by Muslims?

Barbarism doesn't belong solely to one religious or another.

What are you speaking of, mass shootings in the US in general are not motivated by religion. These people are psychopaths with access to firearms. The most recent attack as in last 10 days on a college for instance was from a young man of a Islamic background.

There is no organised religious terror group operating in the USA however.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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