Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Absolam · 25-10-2015 02:45PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It's like saying Ryanair is an abortion provider because % of their customers fly to the UK for abortions.

Well, no not really.
If you were examining the statistics of how many flights Ryanair runs every year, trying to add abortion to the statistics would be a misleading tactic.
If you were to consider the statistics on reasons customers take Ryanair flights, you might reasonably expect abortion to make an appearance. Claiming that other flights taken by customers on Ryanair that may have been related to abortion (like a flight to a favourite aunt for advice for instance) should be included in the statistic, would be the equivalent of what's being attempted in the video.

Patrick Wheelock · 25-10-2015 04:58PM

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

The irish times have the Linehan's story on facebook. The comments are interesting. They should have used birth control and it is wrong to have an abortion just because their child had an inconvenient disability. I know people who were driven away from being pro life because of these types of comments so I suppose letting them shown their stupidity is helpful.

The comments also say that the Linehans have said that they support abortion on demand [apparently they admitted this on Twitter]. That may not help their cause.

Fred Swanson · 25-10-2015 05:03PM

This post has been deleted.

PopePalpatine · 25-10-2015 06:19PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

One more soul in the war against d'heathens, God willing! /s

Patrick Wheelock · 25-10-2015 07:39PM

Travellers are generally anti-abortion and not fond of homosexuality.

How come they don't get criticised for either stance?

volchitsa · 25-10-2015 07:50PM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

The comments also say that the Linehans have said that they support abortion on demand [apparently they admitted this on Twitter]. That may not help their cause.

Seriously? Surely that has nothing to do with whether or not one feels sympathy for them about their own situation?

Or do you mean people will think they are just hateful pro-abortionists who were probably thrilled to have a chance to have an abortion?

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-10-2015 08:00PM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

Travellers are generally anti-abortion and not fond of homosexuality.

How come they don't get criticised for either stance?

Because I have never seen a traveler try to ram their opinion in these subjects down people's throats.

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-10-2015 08:02PM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

The comments also say that the Linehans have said that they support abortion on demand [apparently they admitted this on Twitter]. That may not help their cause.

The comments claim this, I'd there an actual link or any evidence that the linehans sit it?

The Randy Riverbeast · 25-10-2015 08:10PM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

The comments also say that the Linehans have said that they support abortion on demand [apparently they admitted this on Twitter]. That may not help their cause.

Im not sure there views on abortion would affect peoples views on a person having an abortion due to FFA

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

Travellers are generally anti-abortion and not fond of homosexuality.

How come they don't get criticised for either stance?

Probably because we dont see Pavee point campaigning about those issues.

Patrick Wheelock · 25-10-2015 08:10PM

volchitsa wrote: »

Seriously? Surely that has nothing to do with whether or not one feels sympathy for them about their own situation?

Or do you mean people will think they are just hateful pro-abortionists who were probably thrilled to have a chance to have an abortion?

Well some people may feel that they're exploiting their own unfortunate situation by jumping on the bandwagon. Others say "the Linehans live in England so what difference does it make?". Although they may have lived in Ireland at the time.

Most people on either side will sympathise.
However if its revealed that they're supporters of abortion for all no matter what the reason, then naturally that sympathy may be diluted.

Patrick Wheelock · 25-10-2015 08:11PM

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Im not sure there views on abortion would affect peoples views on a person having an abortion due to FFA

Probably because we dont see Pavee point campaigning about those issues.

Sounds like people are giving the travellers a free pass.

Patrick Wheelock · 25-10-2015 08:12PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The comments claim this, I'd there an actual link or any evidence that the linehans sit it?

I will check Twitter and see.

The Randy Riverbeast · 25-10-2015 08:14PM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

Sounds like people are giving the travellers a free pass.

What do you expect people to do?

Any groups being criticized are usually group who have spoken against something. The Letterkenny bridge club could be mostly made up of pro life people and nobody is saying anything about it. Are they getting a free pass?

volchitsa · 26-10-2015 11:35AM

Patrick Wheelock wrote: »

Well some people may feel that they're exploiting their own unfortunate situation by jumping on the bandwagon. Others say "the Linehans live in England so what difference does it make?". Although they may have lived in Ireland at the time.

They lived in England, and have since moved to Ireland.
Their point was that where they were treated with sympathy and understanding, had they made that move to Ireland before that pregnancy, they would have found themselves in an entirely different situation, treated like criminals.

They want Irish couples in their tragic situation to be treated with sympathy and understanding as they were. How that can be "jumpling on a bandwagon" is beyond me.

Do you mean they're delighted to have this chance to "exploit" their own personal tragedy in order to bring about abortion in Ireland?

I'd suggest that it would take a truly sick mind to suggest that - yet I can't see any other interpretation of your "point". Tell me what I'm missing, please?

Most people on either side will sympathise.
However if its revealed that they're supporters of abortion for all no matter what the reason, then naturally that sympathy may be diluted.

You already said that but I still don't see why.

You really need to explain how that would work exactly.

volchitsa · 26-10-2015 11:41AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The comments claim this, I'd there an actual link or any evidence that the linehans sit it?

They did say they were both pro choice.

I've no idea whether they are more pro choice than before their own experience of abortion, I know I am. It's because you realize that no matter what your situation, there will be someone to judge you and tell you you are evil for doing this. So you (or at least I) gradually come to the conclusion that it's the need to judge others that is the real constant in the objections to pregnancy termination.

Once you realize that, the only possible stance wrt other people's pregnancies is "It's none of my business". IMO, and I suggest, in that of the linehans.

Cabaal · 28-10-2015 09:53AM

Anti choice leaflet doing rounds in Dublin

Seems like a sensible argument made on it......or not :pac:
less GAA fans eh?

Kev W · 28-10-2015 10:00AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Anti choice leaflet doing rounds in Dublin

Seems like a sensible argument made on it......or not :pac:
less GAA fans eh?

So very close to coming off as satire.

But no, just genuine stupidity.

My favourite part is the "Fatal Adult Abnormailty" bit!

"See, we can put words in a certain order too! AND we can make them mean whatever we want, apparently."

robindch · 28-10-2015 10:39AM

Cabaal wrote: »

less GAA fans eh?

Nothing at all wrong with cutting back the number of GAA fans

Delirium · 28-10-2015 03:19PM

https://twitter.com/freesafelegal/status/659372711983063040

Cabaal · 28-10-2015 03:41PM

Delirium wrote: »

https://twitter.com/freesafelegal/status/659372711983063040

Wounder what happens if you pushed for a smear test how would they respond?

Fred Swanson · 28-10-2015 03:53PM

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lazygal · 28-10-2015 03:59PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Wounder what happens if you pushed for a smear test how would they respond?

I had a colposcopy while pregnant. It's something that's done when you're flagged as having a few abnormal smears. In fact, I discovered I was pregnant at the appointment to have it done and it was never suggested for a moment that they wouldn't do the test. This was in Holles Street and the results were sent to me and my consultant. Everything was fine but I don't think they'd have kept me in the dark if they weren't.
I was advised at a subsequent appointment that they wouldn't do a smear when I was pregnant the second time because they weren't sure about the results coming back properly. But at all times I am sure if I had requested, and insisted, that the tests be done they would have been done.

On the other hand I had to delay dental treatment because a dentist refused to treat me when pregnant. I found another dentist.

seamus · 28-10-2015 04:20PM

lazygal wrote: »

On the other hand I had to delay dental treatment because a dentist refused to treat me when pregnant. I found another dentist.

Which is funny because the hospitals tell you to go get dental checkups when pregnant because the state will pay for it.

They're just absolutely terrified of getting sued. I've seen some pharmacy assistants hmming and hawing about selling things to pregnant women (even paracetemol), because ultimately in Ireland many still think that pregnant women can't make these decisions for themselves and they'll get in trouble if they let a pregnant woman make their own decision.

Maternity hospitals by comparison seem to be far more blase when it comes to the actual treatment. An old neighbour was dealing with literally crippling back pain during a pregnancy, leaving her bedridden and bordering on suicidal. Once admitted to the hospital, the doctors at no point told her she couldn't have all the big drugs, they just made her sign a lot of stuff before they'd hand them over.

lazygal · 28-10-2015 04:34PM

I wanted to add, I would only have my baby in a hospital that had a very large throughput and was a teaching hospital. I have heard so many horror stories about small maternity units, such as routine scans not being offered and a lack of intervention when things went wrong. I know things can and will go wrong everywhere, but I had complications on my first pregnancy and being under a consultant in a large teaching hospital where my issues had been seen before was very reassuring. I had a load of students troop into the theatre when I delivered my first baby and was happy about it-I want to be in the hospital where knowledge and experience are shared.

rainbow kirby · 28-10-2015 05:02PM

seamus wrote: »

because ultimately in Ireland many still think that pregnant women can't make these decisions for themselves and they'll get in trouble if they let a pregnant woman make their own decision.

This attitude drives me absolutely insane. We don't suddenly regress to the level of a small child when we become pregnant, there is no need for anyone to act like patronising twats. We're perfectly capable of thinking and making decisions for ourselves.

lazygal · 28-10-2015 05:08PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

This attitude drives me absolutely insane. We don't suddenly regress to the level of a small child when we become pregnant, there is no need for anyone to act like patronising twats. We're perfectly capable of thinking and making decisions for ourselves.

I HATED being called 'mum' or 'mammy' when pregnant and after having my baby. Way to completely remove my identity as a person! I eventually told someone who was holding my chart with my name on it to please call me by that name. Really lazy-we don't call anyone else 'kidney patient' or 'heart operation' when they're in the medical system.

Shrap · 28-10-2015 05:35PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

This attitude drives me absolutely insane. We don't suddenly regress to the level of a small child when we become pregnant, there is no need for anyone to act like patronising twats. We're perfectly capable of thinking and making decisions for ourselves.

This just reminded me of a friend of mine's story about when she became pregnant with her eldest son, who must be nearly 40 now, so the story is a definite sign of the times but also illustrates what class of attitude our health care system is still dragging it's knuckles away from.

My friend is French and her husband Irish and when they together went to the doctors surgery to get a pregnancy test (as there was no such thing at the time as over the counter tests, at least down here in the sticks...), she had assumed that the test would be scientific. No, no...it came down to the doctor's "expertise" in such matters and as he cupped her breasts (yes, you read that correctly), he turned to her husband and asked "Were they always this big?"

No word of a lie.

seamus · 28-10-2015 06:25PM

lazygal wrote: »

I HATED being called 'mum' or 'mammy' when pregnant and after having my baby. Way to completely remove my identity as a person! I eventually told someone who was holding my chart with my name on it to please call me by that name.

My mum was a paediatric nurse and later moved into PHN and then for a couple of years was kind of a "special case" PHN for babies with specific issues.

She gave a number of talks to PHNs and always asked the nurses what their biggest issues were. Pretty consistently they complained that they had difficulty getting access to see kids and that mothers were constantly resisting them.

My mum's answer was always the same - stop calling them "Mother", "Mum" or "Mammy", call them by their first name. And when you talk to them, don't talk at them like they're a ten year-old having their homework analysed.

She says that sadly most of the public health nurses just didn't get it. Mothers are there to do what the nurses tell them to do.

This may seem like it's pretty off-topic, but it's kind of a larger problem in that the Irish health system doesn't really treat mothers as autonomous beings and presents them with commands rather than with choices. This persists beyond pregnancy and into motherhood.
Our high C-section rates for example, are not about being "too posh to push", they're because consultants are too lazy to wait and not willing to take a patient's wishes into account.

Cabaal · 28-10-2015 06:44PM

seamus wrote: »

Our high C-section rates for example, are not about being "too posh to push", they're because consultants are too lazy to wait and not willing to take a patient's wishes into account.

I've heard this as well from a view women, consultants pushing for a c section over a natural birth.
Its seems odd considering the research that appears to support the benefits of a natural birth over c-section...building immune systems for baby post-birth etc.

As you said, anyway its pretty off topic for this thread.

Shrap · 28-10-2015 08:02PM

Cabaal wrote: »

As you said, anyway its pretty off topic for this thread.

Sort of is, sort of isn't. Being put firmly in my place (as knowing sweet fanny adams about what's good for me) has definitely been my experience of maternity care here. It is pretty endemic to Ireland's overall treatment of pregnant women as cows in calf. Which is not off topic at all.

Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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