Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Timberrrrrrrr · 19-10-2015 12:07PM

Interesting article, First hand account of having an abortion from Father Ted creator Graham Linehan's wife.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/a-place-without-abortion-puts-two-lives-in-danger-not-one-graham-linehan-on-wifes-termination-after-fatal-foetal-diagnosis-34121483.html

Father Ted creator Graham Linehan and his wife have described their heart breaking experience of terminating a foetus with no chance of survival.

Initially describing how excited they were to learn of the pregnancy in 2004, the couple explains during the 12th week scans revealed that the foetus had a condition called ‘acrania’ which means the flat bones over a baby’s brain have not formed.

“It has a 100pc mortality rate,” Mr Linehan says in the video.

Some months later, the couple moved back to Ireland, where they discovered that, had they been living there during the pregnancy, Ms Linehan would have been forced to carry the pregnancy to term, or face a 14-year prison sentence for procuring an illegal abortion.

“I would have had to have gone full term knowing that this baby, going into shops and every day life, having a heavily pregnant body, people commenting: ‘oh, when are you due?’

“All that stuff. Going through labour, your body’s changed, knowing the baby’s not going to survive,” said Ms Linehan.

“The fact that abortion is illegal in Ireland, even in cases where there is no chance for the foetus to survive, makes Ireland “a dangerous place to be pregnant,” says Mr Linehan.

Cabaal · 20-10-2015 06:15AM

Helen Linehan (married to creator of Fr Ted) had a fetus with 100% mortality rate once it leaves the womb...had she been living in Ireland she would have had to carry the fetus to term.

Unreal,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYpRBR93TdU

Daith · 20-10-2015 02:13PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Helen Linehan (married to creator of Fr Ted) had a fetus with 100% mortality rate once it leaves the womb...had she been living in Ireland she would have had to carry the fetus to term.

Unreal,

and people telling him while all that is very sad abortion is never the answer

Especially heartbreaking when he responds back that they actually wanted the baby.

Cabaal · 20-10-2015 04:13PM

Daith wrote: »

and people telling him while all that is very sad abortion is never the answer

Especially heartbreaking when he responds back that they actually wanted the baby.

But of course abortion is never the solution,
:rolleyes:

Links234 · 20-10-2015 05:36PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9W33wCm7Ao

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2015 07:31PM

Abortion pill bus sets off on two day tour across Ireland

The Abortion Pill Bus organised by the organisation for Reproductive rights against Oppression, Sexism & Austerity (Rosa) set off on Friday morning from outside the Central Bank on Dame Street, Dublin embarking on a two day tour across Ireland carrying abortion pills and information on how Irish women can access abortions.

The group on board the bus, which is calling for the repeal of the Eighth amendment, will stop off at 1pm at the Spanish Arch in Galway and at 5pm on O’Connell Street in Limerick on Friday. The bus will visit Cork city at 11.30am on Saturday and finish up outside the Central bank in Dublin at 3.30pm for a final rally.

Rita Harrold of Rosa urged women around Ireland to visit the bus and share information with friends who may need abortion services in the future.

“We need to defend a woman’s right to choose,” said Ms Harrold, adding that the bus will provide information for women who may not have the money to travel overseas for an abortion. “We’re saying now. We’re not saying in 5 years, we’re not saying in 10 years, because the thousands of women who need abortions now will not wait.”

Women are invited to come on board the bus to use the private consultation room where they can speak to a doctor via Skype. The services available on board the bus were organised in conjunction with the Netherlands based WomenOnWeb.org digital community which supports women’s queries about abortion.

“These medicines we’re highlighting that are an option available to women are on the World Health Organisation list of essential medicines,” said Ms Harrold. “That’s because they are life-saving medicines.”

“Women’s lives are put in danger every single day around the world in countries where abortion is illegal. If you look at countries where there’s an abortion ban like in Ireland but there isn’t an option like travelling to the UK nearby, women are dying.”

Speaking as the bus prepared to leave Dublin, Trinity College Student Union president Lynn Ruane highlighted the growing numbers of students calling for a repeal of the 8th amendment.

“It just shows how much young people are now getting behind this,” said Ms Ruane. “They’re all 17, 18, 19 years of age and they really want to get behind this case.”

TD Ruth Coppinger, who is travelling on the bus, said many of the women to get in touch about abortion services already have children but can’t afford to have another child.

“This is not the 1980s,” said Ms Coppinger. “My generation was badly let down by the Catholic Church and the State collusion in controlling women’s bodies but this generation aren’t going to allow that happen.”

“We just had the first country to vote for marriage equality. Do they seriously think that they can hold back the tide to repeal the 8th amendment and stick in something that would still criminalise women and endanger the health of women in this country.”

............

Trying to set themselves up for an arrest I think - the law is an ass if it is enforced. But if it is not enforced, it is also an ass...

Is there any loophole (like when the pill was prescribed as a 'cycle regulator') to allow abortion pills to be prescribed legally I wonder?

A state has no business sticking its nose into the doctor-patient relationship.

Patrick Wheelock · 23-10-2015 08:32PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Rita Harrold of Rosa urged women around Ireland to visit the bus and share information with friends who may need abortion services in the future.

I have seen Rita around Dublin. Great [DELETED BY MODERATOR]

That's her on the right of the photo.

robindch · 23-10-2015 09:12PM

^^^ User carded for posting contra the forum charter.

Absolam · 24-10-2015 03:00AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Abortion pill bus sets off on two day tour across Ireland <...> Trying to set themselves up for an arrest I think - the law is an ass if it is enforced. But if it is not enforced, it is also an ass... Is there any loophole (like when the pill was prescribed as a 'cycle regulator') to allow abortion pills to be prescribed legally I wonder?

What is normally called the abortion pill is mifepristone (RU-486), which prevents the further growth of the foetus, usually followed by misoprostol, which causes the expulsion of the foetus to complete the process. Both are taken under supervision, usually over a 48 hour period.
So reading the article, and noting there's no mention of there being Doctors on the bus, or that they will be in any location for the requisite time period, I suspect the bus will be carrying the pills, in order to generate publicity, but will not be dispensing them, in order to avoid prosecution as well as potential medical malpractice.
I think neither the law nor the organisers are asses in this instance.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A state has no business sticking its nose into the doctor-patient relationship.

Of course it does. There's a whole body of medical law that sets out how Doctors should behave, including how they should behave with patients. Doctors shouldn't be able to do what they like just because they're Doctors, no more than anyone else. Perhaps even less so since they are in such a responsible position when it comes to our lives, health, and even privacy.
Would you really like your Doctor to be free to discuss your little 'itch' problem with your co-workers and neighbours? I'm sure your next of kin wouldn't be happy they couldn't sue your Doctor following your demise from improperly prescribed medication either.

silverharp · 24-10-2015 08:39AM

lying with statistics? I think the peace is from a christian group so it might have its own bias but seems a reasonable point that Planned Parenthood in the US cherry pick their stats beyond the point of deception

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5goixwQYuSA

Absolam · 24-10-2015 09:16AM

silverharp wrote: »

lying with statistics? I think the peace is from a christian group so it might have its own bias but seems a reasonable point that Planned Parenthood in the US cherry pick their stats beyond the point of deception

Considering the video starts with the presenter 'correcting' herself to say "3% of what they do has to do with abortions, everything else they do has to do with.....etc etc" when what Planned Parenthood actually say is "Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services." And in fact, that's what all the claims are from the other shows they have clips from. 3% 'is' abortion services. Not 3% 'has to do with' abortion services.
So when she says Planned Parenthood may also give a woman
An std test
A pap test
Birth control
Pain medication
making the actual abortion 20% of the services provided on that occasion, that doesn't mean Planned Parenthood are either deliberately minimising, or cherry picking, their stats, since these are services being provided nonetheless. Planned Parenthood should only include those services in their %age if they claim x% of their services 'are to do with' abortion services. But they don't; they claim x% of their services 'are' abortion services, so their number shouldn't, and don't, include services 'to do with' abortion services.

The Black Oil · 24-10-2015 10:21AM

Page 18 of Planned Parenthood's 2013-2014 annual report refers to 327,653 abortion procedures.

silverharp · 24-10-2015 01:19PM

Absolam wrote: »

Considering the video starts with the presenter 'correcting' herself to say "3% of what they do has to do with abortions, everything else they do has to do with.....etc etc" when what Planned Parenthood actually say is "Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services." And in fact, that's what all the claims are from the other shows they have clips from. 3% 'is' abortion services. Not 3% 'has to do with' abortion services.
So when she says Planned Parenthood may also give a woman
An std test
A pap test
Birth control
Pain medication
making the actual abortion 20% of the services provided on that occasion, that doesn't mean Planned Parenthood are either deliberately minimising, or cherry picking, their stats, since these are services being provided nonetheless. Planned Parenthood should only include those services in their %age if they claim x% of their services 'are to do with' abortion services. But they don't; they claim x% of their services 'are' abortion services, so their number shouldn't, and don't, include services 'to do with' abortion services.

I dont know anything about the organisation but if the 3% stat is being used , it would appear that the organisation want to play down that particular service? without digging any further it would be possible to conclude that only 3% of their customers have abortions and that TYT were happy not to put any meat on the bones to describe the organisation's activities in a realistic way?

Absolam · 24-10-2015 01:27PM

silverharp wrote: »

I dont know anything about the organisation but if the 3% stat is being used , it would appear that the organisation want to play down that particular service? without digging any further it would be possible to conclude that only 3% of their customers have abortions and that TYT were happy not to put any meat on the bones to describe the organisation's activities in a realistic way?

Well, it could simply be that 3% of the services they provide are abortion services, and those opposed to abortion in the US are trying to play up that particular service, as PP receive federal funding, so they can use the spending of public money to leverage opinion against PP.
PP have no real reason to downplay how much of their services are abortions, they're already not allowed to spend public money on abortion services in the vast majority of cases anyway.

Absolam · 24-10-2015 01:31PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Page 18 of Planned Parenthood's 2013-2014 annual report refers to 327,653 abortion procedures.

Out of 10,590,433 services, so you'd imagine that's where the 3% number came from.

silverharp · 24-10-2015 01:49PM

Absolam wrote: »

Well, it could simply be that 3% of the services they provide are abortion services, and those opposed to abortion in the US are trying to play up that particular service, as PP receive federal funding, so they can use the spending of public money to leverage opinion against PP.
PP have no real reason to downplay how much of their services are abortions, they're already not allowed to spend public money on abortion services in the vast majority of cases anyway.

based on the numbers given in the video, the 12% one would be more meaningful number , that out of 2.7m customers 300 odd thousand had abortions. and then based on income which translates into costs and staff that a third of the organisation's staff and resources relate to abortion. It doesnt change the understanding of what gov. funding they get. making either of these points doesnt paint the organisation in a bad light

Absolam · 24-10-2015 10:33PM

silverharp wrote: »

based on the numbers given in the video, the 12% one would be more meaningful number , that out of 2.7m customers 300 odd thousand had abortions. and then based on income which translates into costs and staff that a third of the organisation's staff and resources relate to abortion. It doesnt change the understanding of what gov. funding they get. making either of these points doesnt paint the organisation in a bad light

But based on PPs figures 3% seems more meaningful; 10,590,433 services provided, 327,653 of which were abortion services.
Perhaps (note the video says may) some of the other services provided were provided at the same time as abortion services; but even if you say of the 4,470,597 std services provided 327,653 (7%) of them were provided at the same time as abortion services, it doesn't mean they weren't provided, or shouldn't be reported, does it?
PP don't have customers by the way, they're a health care provider so they have patients.

silverharp · 25-10-2015 10:27AM

Absolam wrote: »

But based on PPs figures 3% seems more meaningful; 10,590,433 services provided, 327,653 of which were abortion services.
Perhaps (note the video says may) some of the other services provided were provided at the same time as abortion services; but even if you say of the 4,470,597 std services provided 327,653 (7%) of them were provided at the same time as abortion services, it doesn't mean they weren't provided, or shouldn't be reported, does it?

we will start circling soon but to look at a different business, if aerlingus and dublin bus became one organisation , it would be silly to say that flying passengers were ~10% "of what the business does", instead you would look at turnover or the relative size of the organisations as it conveys more information.
In terms of PP if you want to count an otc transaction for $10 with a surgical procedure , it doesnt tell you a lot because as relayed by TYT for example you might come away with the idea that abortion services are an insignificant part of the organisation when in fact abortions services are a significant part of the organisation.

recedite · 25-10-2015 10:40AM

silverharp wrote: »

if aerlingus and dublin bus became one organisation , it would be silly to say that flying passengers were ~10% "of what the business does", instead you would look at turnover or the relative size of the organisations as it conveys more information.

Or to continue that analogy, if a person taking a direct flight to Australia got two different buses on their way to the airport, then claimed that two thirds of their journey was by bus, and only one third related to flying.

silverharp · 25-10-2015 10:57AM

recedite wrote: »

Or to continue that analogy, if a person taking a direct flight to Australia got two different buses on their way to the airport, then claimed that two thirds of their journey was by bus, and only one third related to flying.

yep that as well. Ive no axe to grind with PP , they do what they do but for honesty I dont like the idea of packaged narratives being served up for PR purposes and if I get to take a pop at TYT thats a twofer :pac:

Absolam · 25-10-2015 11:41AM

silverharp wrote: »

we will start circling soon but to look at a different business, if aerlingus and dublin bus became one organisation , it would be silly to say that flying passengers were ~10% "of what the business does", instead you would look at turnover or the relative size of the organisations as it conveys more information.
In terms of PP if you want to count an otc transaction for $10 with a surgical procedure , it doesnt tell you a lot because as relayed by TYT for example you might come away with the idea that abortion services are an insignificant part of the organisation when in fact abortions services are a significant part of the organisation.

You could look at any number of things; the number of passenger trips, total distance per passenger, cost per kilometer. And I'm sure PP look at lots of different statistics, but the statistic the percentages are being drawn from are the number of services provided. If someone wants to take issue with the amount of PP time, or PP spend, or PP resource allocation, they will be different metrics under discussion. But the one metric that is being discussed in the video is the number of services provided; of which abortion services are 3%.
Trying to spin that by saying abortion should be counted as 'services to do with abortion' is misleading, unless they rework all the statistics as 'services to do with', in which case there will be overlap where services are counted multiple times as they are 'to do with' other services. Providing a much unclearer picture of what is provided than PP are currently giving.

Absolam · 25-10-2015 11:47AM

recedite wrote: »

Or to continue that analogy, if a person taking a direct flight to Australia got two different buses on their way to the airport, then claimed that two thirds of their journey was by bus, and only one third related to flying.

Though if they claimed they took a trip to Australia, which had three distinct legs and 30% of those legs were by aeroplane, their statement would be entirely accurate.

Or if they said they took a journey, like all customers, and their particular journey was comprised of one plane trip and two bus trips, that would also be entirely accurate. And a somewhat closer analogy.

MrPudding · 25-10-2015 11:48AM

Absolam wrote: »

You could look at any number of things; the number of passenger trips, total distance per passenger, cost per kilometer. And I'm sure PP look at lots of different statistics, but the statistic the percentages are being drawn from are the number of services provided. If someone wants to take issue with the amount of PP time, or PP spend, or PP resource allocation, they will be different metrics under discussion. But the one metric that is being discussed in the video is the number of services provided; of which abortion services are 3%.
Trying to spin that by saying abortion should be counted as 'services to do with abortion' is misleading, unless they rework all the statistics as 'services to do with', in which case there will be overlap where services are counted multiple times as they are 'to do with' other services. Providing a much unclearer picture of what is provided than PP are currently giving.

I think I have come over all funny as I find myself agreeing with you. A most odd feeling...

MrP

lazygal · 25-10-2015 11:55AM

MrPudding wrote: »

I think I have come over all funny as I find myself agreeing with you. A most odd feeling...

MrP

Sit down and have a hot beverage. Is coffee a bit proddy?

silverharp · 25-10-2015 12:11PM

Absolam wrote: »

You could look at any number of things; the number of passenger trips, total distance per passenger, cost per kilometer. And I'm sure PP look at lots of different statistics, but the statistic the percentages are being drawn from are the number of services provided. If someone wants to take issue with the amount of PP time, or PP spend, or PP resource allocation, they will be different metrics under discussion. But the one metric that is being discussed in the video is the number of services provided; of which abortion services are 3%.
Trying to spin that by saying abortion should be counted as 'services to do with abortion' is misleading, unless they rework all the statistics as 'services to do with', in which case there will be overlap where services are counted multiple times as they are 'to do with' other services. Providing a much unclearer picture of what is provided than PP are currently giving.

in the particular context abortion is obviously controversial , in my AerLingus example if there was a campaign or constant attempts to limit air travel for environmental reasons or some such, it would be in the interests of this group to say that they are only a 10% airline so leave us alone. I believe PP are taking the same approach, look only 3% of what we do is abortion services..well yeah but no.....

Absolam · 25-10-2015 12:21PM

silverharp wrote: »

in the particular context abortion is obviously controversial , in my AerLingus example if there was a campaign or constant attempts to limit air travel for environmental reasons or some such, it would be in the interests of this group to say that they are only a 10% airline so leave us alone. I believe PP are taking the same approach, look only 3% of what we do is abortion services..well yeah but no.....

Well yeah but yeah... your Aerlingus example has Aerlingus joining Dublin Bus so that it isn't simply an air travel provider, remember? If that means it then provides journey by bus as well as air, they're still journeys,and they're not air travel.
And PP didn't start as an abortion service provider that took over other service providers in order to look less like an abortion services provider, it always was about being a reproductive health care provider; it's roots are squarely in contraception, not abortion.

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-10-2015 12:45PM

Absolam wrote: »

Well yeah but yeah... your Aerlingus example has Aerlingus joining Dublin Bus so that it isn't simply an air travel provider, remember? If that means it then provides journey by bus as well as air, they're still journeys,and they're not air travel.
And PP didn't start as an abortion service provider that took over other service providers in order to look less like an abortion services provider, it always was about being a reproductive health care provider; it's roots are squarely in contraception, not abortion.

It's like saying Ryanair is an abortion provider because % of their customers fly to the UK for abortions.

Dan_Solo · 25-10-2015 12:55PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It's like saying Ryanair is an abortion provider because % of their customers fly to the UK for abortions.

How many women who have had an abortion have eaten Taytos?
ABORTION MERCHANTS.
(or how many of them have been to church?)

PopePalpatine · 25-10-2015 01:03PM

Ah shure didn't St Bridget herself perform abortions?

The Randy Riverbeast · 25-10-2015 01:04PM

The irish times have the Linehan's story on facebook. The comments are interesting. They should have used birth control and it is wrong to have an abortion just because their child had an inconvenient disability. I know people who were driven away from being pro life because of these types of comments so I suppose letting them shown their stupidity is helpful.

Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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