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Can Lorries Overtake on the Motorway?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,429 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Aska wrote: »
    our problem of course is our motorways have mostly only two lanes making them glorified dual carriageways...
    Why is that a problem?
    Weird thing is they are allowed to be in the right hand lane on a dual carriageway for passing etc... some thought put in to that by the brains in charge.
    Dual carriageways and motorway have fundamental differences. There's no need to use to rightmost lane of a motorway. A dual carriageway, there is.


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Why are so many posters continuing to post that trucks are not allowed in the overtaking lane when poster cython has gone to the bother of posting an extract from the legislation which clearly states that ITS NOT ILLEGAL FOR TRUCKS TO USE THE OVERTAKING LANES. Obstruction is not defined by law and has not been challenged so a truck doing 80ks(many do) is an obstruction to a truck doing 85ks

    Seriously some posters see a thread title and click reply without reading any replies all in the aim of adding to their post count
    That's not what the extract says.
    It's all well and good to play legal hot shot on the internet, but I imagine the reason it hasn't been challenged in the real world is painfully obvious.
    A truck going 80km/h isn't an obstruction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 386 ✭✭Nichard Dixon


    Mellor wrote: »
    It's all well and good to play legal hot shot on the internet, but I imagine the reason it hasn't been challenged in the real world is painfully obvious.
    .

    And in case it isn't obvious, it is because the Gardai are not doing their job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Crumbs868


    Mellor wrote: »
    Why is that a problem?


    Dual carriageways and motorway have fundamental differences. There's no need to use to rightmost lane of a motorway. A dual carriageway, there is.




    That's not what the extract says.
    It's all well and good to play legal hot shot on the internet, but I imagine the reason it hasn't been challenged in the real world is painfully obvious.
    A truck going 80km/h isn't an obstruction.

    Look up the word obstruction in a dictionary and come back to me. "Plainfully obvious" doesn't cut the mustard in a court


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,429 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Look up the word obstruction in a dictionary and come back to me. "Plainfully obvious" doesn't cut the mustard in a court
    I said the reason it hasn't been challenged in that way was obvious - because it's a fairly ridiculous defense.

    But the intention of the law is fairly obvious too.
    Good luck trying to convince the truck going 88km/h was an obstruction. Make sure you bring a dictionary for him to look at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 386 ✭✭Nichard Dixon


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Look up the word obstruction in a dictionary and come back to me. "Plainfully obvious" doesn't cut the mustard in a court

    If there is an obstruction then the truck in front should be charged.

    If any prosecutions had been brought, then the matter would not be in doubt.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Crumbs868


    If there is an obstruction then the truck in front should be charged.

    Define the word obstruction please?


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,734 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    slow moving traffic, obstructions, stay in the fast lane and avoid them all, until you become one...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 386 ✭✭Nichard Dixon


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Define the word obstruction please?

    Parked vehicle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,826 ✭✭✭cython


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Why are so many posters continuing to post that trucks are not allowed in the overtaking lane when poster cython has gone to the bother of posting an extract from the legislation which clearly states that ITS NOT ILLEGAL FOR TRUCKS TO USE THE OVERTAKING LANES. Obstruction is not defined by law and has not been challenged so a truck doing 80ks(many do) is an obstruction to a truck doing 85ks

    Seriously some posters see a thread title and click reply without reading any replies all in the aim of adding to their post count
    Way to miss the point. As already pointed out, why bother putting this in place if it basically means the same as the existing "keep left" rule that applies to all traffic? The use of the term obstruction as opposed to the also widely used (within relvant SIs) "slower moving traffic" suggests that this is not simply a normal overtake.
    Aska wrote: »
    Yip they are not allowed to be in the right hand lane on a motorway, our problem of course is our motorways have mostly only two lanes making them glorified dual carriageways where as most other countries have 3 lane motorways atleast meaning the heavy vehicles can travel in the left lane and middle lane only.

    Weird thing is they are allowed to be in the right hand lane on a dual carraigeway for passing etc... some thought put in to that by the brains in charge.

    OP may I ask. How do you feel about "L" driven cars being on the motorways considering they shouldn't be within an ass's roar for one?

    Not trying to deflect from your point 'cause that hgv driver was careless and could have caused an accident only for the calm thinking and actions of the car driver at that time.

    Take a look at the SI excerpts I posted, they make no distinction between motorway and DC, so arguably HGVs should not be in the rightmost lane of either class of road. Realistically though, some DCs have right hand turns that trucks may need to take, so it would be much less enforceable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭Dr_Bill


    usually considered the fast lane

    There is no fast lane...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭Monkeysgomad


    Treadhead wrote: »
    Interesting, was always under the impression that the only stretch of 120kph dual carriageway was the n1 between the end of the m1 and the border... No harm.

    No, there's speeds of 120kph on the n25 in cork


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,705 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Deagol wrote: »
    It is not illegal for a HGV to use the overtaking lane of a 2 lane motorway. HGV's are however not allowed to use the outside overtaking lane of a 3 lane motorway.

    This is a penalty point offence as of December 2014
    Driving a vehicle (subject to an ordinary speed limit of 90 kms per hour or less)
    on the outside lane on a motorway.

    So that covers the following vehicles:
    Single and double deck buses and coaches (carrying standing passengers) - 65 km/h
    Single and double deck buses and coaches (with accommodation for more than 8 passengers but does not carry standing passengers)
    - Motorways and dual carriageways - 100 km/h
    - Other roads - 80 km/h
    Towing Vehicles - 80 km/h
    Trucks (with a design gross weight of more than 3,500kg)
    - Motorways - 90 km/h (since 1 April 2012)
    - Other roads - 80 km/h


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 Grandad99


    I don't think the overtaking ban in the outside lane applies to coaches, as they have an a speed limit of 100 Kph, as opposed to trucks 90 Kmh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 Grandad99


    I don't think the overtaking ban in the outside lane applies to coaches with seating capicity only, as they have an a speed limit of 100 Kph, as opposed to trucks 90 Kmh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Grandad99 wrote: »
    I don't think the overtaking ban in the outside lane applies to coaches with seating capicity only, as they have an a speed limit of 100 Kph, as opposed to trucks 90 Kmh.
    Correct.

    cython wrote: »
    Take a look at the SI excerpts I posted, they make no distinction between motorway and DC, so arguably HGVs should not be in the rightmost lane of either class of road. Realistically though, some DCs have right hand turns that trucks may need to take, so it would be much less enforceable.

    They do. The first excerpt (from SI 74/2012) states it is an amendment to Regulation 33.1 of S.I. No. 182 of 1997. Reg 33.1 applies only to motorways meaning that HGVs are not prohibited from the rightmost lane on non-motorways.
    Rules for Traffic on Motorways
    33. (1) A driver on a motorway shall not—


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,826 ✭✭✭cython


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    Correct.




    They do. The first excerpt (from SI 74/2012) states it is an amendment to Regulation 33.1 of S.I. No. 182 of 1997. Reg 33.1 applies only to motorways meaning that HGVs are not prohibited from the rightmost lane on non-motorways.

    Ah, my apologies. I really wish Irish Statute Book would provide the "merged" content of the acts for ease of reading, potentially with the option to view it at a given point in time. I've seen a third party site do this for the Taxes Consolidation Act, so it's obviously not a huge technical challenge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    No, there's speeds of 120kph on the n25 in cork

    And on the N1 in Louth


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    It's not been mentioned yet, but there are huge sections of 2 lane Autobahn in Germany, with no speed limit, and in a considerable number of places, there are blanket bans on the use of the overtaking lane by ANY vehicle over 3.5 tonnes, and those restrictions are for significant distances, there are sections of the autobahn from Munich to Salzburg where this restriction is in place for 50 or 60 Kilometers at a time, partly because of the gradients, and partly because of the different rules in respect to speed limits, there are NO upper limits in some of those sections, so it's very possible to have vehicles travelling at 150 Kph or more, and coming up on a rolling road block of HGV's doing 80 or 90 Kph (or less on some of the longer hills) is not a nice experience if your moving at high speed.

    That said, the discussion here is an academic exercise, as there's NO realistic enforcement of any of the rules other than speed limits for cars, despite motorways being the safest road types. I came back to Dublin last night from Clare, and in the space of less than 10 miles, at 20:30, was affected by a number of incidents.

    The first could have been nasty, a relatively new van, with headlights on, but NO working lights on the rear, no red lights, or number place lights, so not exactly clearly visible at that time of day. Flashed the lights a couple of times before passing it, and then having passed it, did what I could to try and let the driver know that there was nothing working on the back of his vehicle, (turned ALL my lights on and off several times) but it made no difference. A couple of miles later, as I'm passing a junction at 120 Kph, a car comes down the on ramp, and goes straight from the on ramp into lane 2, at about 50 to 60, even though there was no traffic or obstruction in lane 1. Not exactly a nice experience, given the difference in relative speeds. A bit further on, a van passes me doing about 130, then pulls back into Lane 1 in front of me, and then brakes in order to make the exit at a slip that was on his left, which again required some "avoiding action". Further up, had another "joiner" do something similar to the previous one, and then there was the section from Naas to Dublin, where I could have stayed in Lane 1 doing 100 all the way to Dublin, if it hadn't been for the procession of morons in lane 2 doing 90 and ignoring an empty lane on their left.

    OK, part of the issue is that there are some cars out there where the accuracy of the speedo is highly questionable, and if you don't have a means to check it, that's a problem, which does result in a lot of people doing an indicated 100 Kph, but in some cases, their true speed is only about 92, I've checked a number of vehicles using GPS and measured distance covered, the worst in that respect was one in the UK where the indicated was 70 Mph, but the true speed was 56 Mph, and one of our vehicles here, to get a true speed of 120 Kph, the indicated has to be 130, and I know that's accurate based on GPS checking (more than one gps to be sure, and verified using distance covered, which is easy with the marker posts on the motorways these days. There are supposedly legal limits for speedo accuracy, but I have to wonder if those limits are being abused by the manufacturers in much the same way as we've seen in recent weeks with the emissions controls, if the vehicle isn't doing the speed that it indicates, that makes the fuel consumption figures look better than they really are, and not many drivers are going to check that they've actually covered the distance relative to their speed on a longer journey, even though it can make a significant difference to the overall journey time, though that's not often the case in Ireland, the distances are so much shorter, and there's not that many long motorways. On a trip that's perhaps 800 Kilometers, the difference between 105 and 120 Kph can mean a substantial difference in the total journey time.

    Even allowing for that issue, that doesn't explain or justify the number of lane hoggers, or the number that come down a slip and ignore the line at the end that indicates that traffic already on the motorway has right of way, and is NOT obliged to let them in regardless, and there's even less excuse for the people that go from the slip straight in to the right hand lanes at less than the road speed limit.

    And yes, there's NO chance of any realistic enforcement action against the HGV rolling road blocks that happen every day, even though they are a major problem at some times of the day, especially during the busier peak periods.

    I'd be reluctant to let learners on the motorways before they've passed a competency test, simply because the speeds are higher, and in the early stages, learners have not developed the skills needed to recognise the differences in technique that higher speeds require, that only comes with some driving experience, though from what I see here, some drivers never develop those skills, the new N plates may help there, in that hopefully, if an N driver is on a motorway, they will be given some leeway, but I might be being over optimistic there as well.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,783 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Crumbs868 wrote: »
    Why are so many posters continuing to post that trucks are not allowed in the overtaking lane when poster cython has gone to the bother of posting an extract from the legislation which clearly states that ITS NOT ILLEGAL FOR TRUCKS TO USE THE OVERTAKING LANES. Obstruction is not defined by law and has not been challenged so a truck doing 80ks(many do) is an obstruction to a truck doing 85ks

    Seriously some posters see a thread title and click reply without reading any replies all in the aim of adding to their post count

    Utter rubbish, the words need to be understood in context, a basic tenet of construing legislation. An obstruction is something which blocks your path or which causes a hazard, this is not another truck moving at 89kmh but something such as an accident or conceivably a queue of stopped traffic. No vehicle may enter the rightmost lane except for the purpose of passing other traffic. If your suggestion had any merit, the SI would be otiose.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 groovy123


    They overtake all the time!! I live Sunderland and often on the road stuck behind to lorries blocking both lands.... ROAD RAGE


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭StonyIron


    What annoys me is you get one truck doing 99 and the othe doing 100 and the "faster" truck pulls out into the overtaking lane and proceeds to spend about 2 minutes attempting to pass the other truck while nearly causing a rolling roadblock on the overtaking lane as fast moving cars collect behind.

    I also see trucks pulling into the overtaking lane without much warning quite a bit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,902 ✭✭✭9935452



    OK, part of the issue is that there are some cars out there where the accuracy of the speedo is highly questionable, and if you don't have a means to check it, that's a problem, which does result in a lot of people doing an indicated 100 Kph, but in some cases, their true speed is only about 92, I've checked a number of vehicles using GPS and measured distance covered, the worst in that respect was one in the UK where the indicated was 70 Mph, but the true speed was 56 Mph, and one of our vehicles here, to get a true speed of 120 Kph, the indicated has to be 130, and I know that's accurate based on GPS checking (more than one gps to be sure, and verified using distance covered, which is easy with the marker posts on the motorways these days. There are supposedly legal limits for speedo accuracy, but I have to wonder if those limits are being abused by the manufacturers in much the same way as we've seen in recent weeks with the emissions controls, if the vehicle isn't doing the speed that it indicates, that makes the fuel consumption figures look better than they really are, and not many drivers are going to check that they've actually covered the distance relative to their speed on a longer journey, even though it can make a significant difference to the overall journey time, though that's not often the case in Ireland, the distances are so much shorter, and there's not that many long motorways. On a trip that's perhaps 800 Kilometers, the difference between 105 and 120 Kph can mean a substantial difference in the total journey time.

    I know in england its illegal for a manufacturer to sell a car that under reads so they always make sure they over read .
    there is a difference between new tyres and bald ones of about 3mph at 75mph as well that a manufacturer cant account for.
    Then you have lads who change the size of tyres on their cars which upset the whole thing more


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