Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

MrPudding wrote: »

Christ, you are hard work. So what we have here is a thought experiment

Oddly, I got the idea that Kylith wasn't proposing that I should actually go out out and do one thing or the other.
My objection was to the notion that being presented with a choice between the two options, that I would choose either one.

MrPudding wrote: »

The key thing is, you must choose one of the options.

And that's the thing; I mustn't. I can choose not to participate, whether it's a real choice, or a hypothetical choice.

MrPudding wrote: »

Here is the scenario:
War has broken out in Europe, you, along with all of your relatives have been captured and are currently being held in an internment camp. The commandant of the camp is a particularly evil person and has presented you with a horrible dilemma. Before you are two 12 year old girls. The girl on the left, you are informed, is 12 weeks pregnant, the pregnancy being the result of a gang rape she suffered at the hands of 6 of the camp guards. The other girl is naked and tied to a bed.
The commandant has lined all of your relatives, as well as anyone you have spoken to since you were brought to the camp some weeks ago, against a wall faced by 10 guards armed with machine guns.
You are given a choice. Give the pregnant girl a tablet which will cause her to miscarriage or rape the other girl. If you choose to do neither all of your friends and family, as well as the two girls will be executed.
Which would you do?

I think in this case I'm going to wrest the machine gun from the nearest guard, deftly execute the evil commandant whilst quipping merrily in a 1940s heroic style in order to distract the combatants until my doughty family and friends overpower them, and get everyone back to blighty in time for tea and buns. Along the way we'll discover the trauma has excised the memory of rape from the mind of the 12 year old on the left and she has a vague but pleasantly hopeful notion that she is about to be the mother of a new religion of world peace, whilst the girl on the right is contemplating a lucrative career in the construction of alternative bed furniture.

I'm happy to agree that you can construct a novel hypothetical in which you do your utmost to minimise the apparent effect of killing a foetus compared to the effect of raping a child, for instance by presenting it as simply administering a tablet rather than perhaps cutting the child (desperate to create something positive from her horrific rape by becoming the best mother a child could have) open with a blunt rusty blade, and on eventually locating the foetus scooping it out with your fingers, all in all endeavouring to make it appear that killing a foetus is a less heinous act that raping a child.

Nevertheless, as I said, I think killing someone is worse than raping someone.

Cabaal wrote: »

Ireland exporting its problems once more,
Either the anti-choice crowd need to man up and lobby for laws to stop women traveling to have an abortion or we finally need to vote on the issue.

Notwithstanding the amusing notion that you need to tell those who oppose you point of view what they should lobby for, I think we'll have a vote when enough people give a sufficiently clear message to their TDs that their political future depends on it.

Cabaal wrote: »

Perhaps if the catholic church changed its stance on sexual health and condom use then we'd have less abortions as it would ensure people are far better educated I guess the church can't have it both ways.

I wonder if that could be quantified? As in how many people were persuaded by the Church stance on contraception but subsequently not persuaded by the Church stance on abortion. Not sure how it's the Church 'having it bnoth ways' but still, interesting.

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting that the catholic church has very much lost power in the Netherlands over the decades, perhaps there's a link

I'd certainly be interested in a link; more in fairness to see how anyone would objectively measure the gain and loss of Church 'power' than anything else.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Being that murder is a crime in the UK, I don't really see what you're trying to say here. The 13th amendment appears to be specifically written as we know there are different abortion laws across Europe.

The 13th amendment gives the mother a constitutional right to do something that is illegal in Ireland.

You don't find this strange or contradictory?

Absolam wrote: »

Notwithstanding the amusing notion that you need to tell those who oppose you point of view what they should lobby for,[...]

You must not watch enough courtroom dramas. Hostile witness, notable exception to the "leading question" rule.

[...] I think we'll have a vote when enough people give a sufficiently clear message to their TDs that their political future depends on it.

Good to know we're not leavening our political cynicism with any consideration of possible conscience, logic, or consistency on the part of our elected representatives. Avoids any risk of disappointment.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is that a quote from the amendment?

You need the read it as one I'm afraid. It's in the article about abortion.

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.