The Gender Pay Gap

That is exactly the controversy - people with kids see it as unfair, they go the "it's not a fault I have kids!"; People without kids see the situation equally unfair when a special consideration is given to the former (and it happens, believe me), going the "having kids is not a merit..." way. They both have a point.

Also, in an ideal world timing wouldn't be a valid judgement criteria taken alone - if somebody can do in 4 hours what everyone else does in 8, and spends the remaining 4 in the toilette, I would see them as exactly on par; However in my experience, most managers of people put a little too much attention on timekeeping - work your arse off, accomplish things that the others in the same office don't even know where to begin with, then ask to come in or leave one hour late/early once a month (because you have something to do, not just 'cause you like it!) and see what happens :mad:

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Yep. Just look at Reddit. Women can't negotiate higher salaries as well as men so what does Reddit do? Put a system in place to help women become better negotiators?

Nah, they just abolished salary negotiation instead thereby punishing everyone.

That applies to everyone.

A lot of big companies don't do salary negotiations. TBH it seems like the right approach.

keane2097 wrote: »

That applies to everyone.

A lot of big companies don't do salary negotiations. TBH it seems like the right approach.

It's the right approach only if you want to have to constantly hire and train new people - blocking all salary negotiations means that staff, especially the more senior one, will find better offers and leave.

It's something that's happening right now in many IT companies around Ireland - most of the people hired in the 2009-2014 period, who accepted low(ish) salaries because the market was stale, are moving around as the market upturns.

As I posted somewhere else, I was flatly denied a rather modest raise in August - and when I say "flatly", I mean no reason given other than "we don't to that", also implying more or less directly that it won't be likely to happen in the future.

I'm not the first one in the office to experience this, as a result we are bleeding people left, right and centre. About 10-15 people left since the beginning of the year, some of them quite senior (project leaders, managers et all) and another one handed his notice in today. This just form the business unit I work in.

Getting work done is becoming increasingly difficult - the few remaining ones are getting twice or thrice the workload, and the (very few, actually) new hires need a couple of months before being completely up to speed.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That is exactly the controversy - people with kids see it as unfair, they go the "it's not a fault I have kids!"; People without kids see the situation equally unfair when a special consideration is given to the former (and it happens, believe me), going the "having kids is not a merit..." way. They both have a point.

For what it's worth, I have two kids and my wife is a stay-at-home mother / part-time childminder. The reality is that having kids isn't a merit, it's a personal decision and one which, for most of us, restricts our professional lives. Demanding equal treatment to those who don't have the restrictions of parenthood is farcical imo (unless you're prepared to put your career ahead of your kids? ).

Also, in an ideal world timing wouldn't be a valid judgement criteria taken alone - if somebody can do in 4 hours what everyone else does in 8, and spends the remaining 4 in the toilette, I would see them as exactly on par; However in my experience, most managers of people put a little too much attention on timekeeping - work your arse off, accomplish things that the others in the same office don't even know where to begin with, then ask to come in or leave one hour late/early once a month (because you have something to do, not just 'cause you like it!) and see what happens :mad:

I'd agree on this point which is why I explicitly pointed out the potential for the employee working lower hours to be the more productive.

Good managers don't tend to be so focused on this once you're not contracted to be available to clients between certain hours (e.g. the usual 9 - 5.30). I work fairly long hours but if I need to come in an hour or two late on a given morning, I do. No one has ever tried to "bring it to my attention" because they know that, on balance, the extra hours I do more than cover such (rare) occasions.

Just to add my two bit's on this.

Warren Farrell talks about this in some detail and although he is a guy he was a member of NOW National Organization for Women and is an avid woman’s campaigner and I think he talks sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell

I think the pay gap in the US/UK/Ireland varies from occupation but the number 80c to the euro was bantered about. Or 77cent to the euro I guess it can depend on the statistic you look at.

I think the first thing to remember is people or not the same, people keep using this term "equal" but for something to be equal everyone would need to be the same, do the same things make the same choices.

So firstly is there a pay gap.... Yes
But can that pay gap be explained? I think most of it can.

I think people need to take the emotions out of this.
People often say "Do men work harder" the word harder is an idiotic term simply used to goad people it really means nothing.
What we really need to look at is what hours, days, weeks and years do men put into paid employment vrs women.

Studies have shown men generally work longer hours than women

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

Warren Farrell talks about this, saying that women generally made decisions to make them happier, work less, spend more time with family and friends, take longer holiday time etc.....
Men are generally unhappier and more work centred.

The next thing he talks about is motivational influences.
When people have children generally two things happen.

Usually the mother takes time off but also generally the mother will make her work life or career fit around her family life opting usually to spend more time at home with her children.

The opposite usually happens with the father, increase financial burden with a new individual to care for and perhaps a partner who leaves the work space usually forces him into working longer hours.

I keep hearing feminist say "women should not be punished for having children" this is not a punishment it's a practicality.

A new study shows that women are earning more than men up until the age of 30

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11832042/Women-earn-more-than-men-in-their-20s-until-the-pay-gap-hits-at-age-30.html

Now some people are saying this is due to positive discrimination.
I think a number of years ago UK companies FTSE 250 were told they need to increase the % of women in the board room.

When looking at engineering roles which are predominantly male (There are reasons for that also) you will find that female engineers will make more early on than their males counterparts.

Reason being as there are less females companies are under pressure to ensure they try and employee an equal number of females albeit there are less of them, this demand will usually mean companies will compete more for female staff.


Looking at some of the stats I understand that stats can lie or be bent to try and support a point and Warren Farrell talks about this in his book, you need to compare apples with apples and the stats are sometimes comparing apples and oranges.


Personally I think the feminst drive only looks at the numbers men and women should earn the same, I think that would be only be true if the time spent in paid employment is the same, I think feminst need to stop using the emotional "Do you think men work harder....." Harder is a relative term and only used to rile people up!

The gender pay gap is only a private sector issue and it's about time the private sector sorted it.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The gender pay gap is only a private sector issue and it's about time the private sector sorted it.

Can't imagine why a capitalist system isn't socialist?

It's very easy to fix but women may not like the result. Gender quota's in part time jobs and overtime would be a good start. Not good for individual women though.

fits wrote: »

you just assumed I was male.

didnt think about it in fairness but in "the Gentlemen's Club" and a generic username , why ought I not? I am critical of the video though, it's a nonsense based on what ive seen during my work career.

OneOfThem wrote: »

Sames!

SNIP

This is a fun thread.

I thought self promotion wasnt allowed on boards.

bee06 wrote: »

After over 10 years of working in multinationals I've never come across anything like that either. I had to laugh at the maths relates one as well. I'm in a data analysis role and no one has ever doubted the quality of my work because I'm a woman. 10 out of the 13 senior managers and directors are women in my current job as well.

There are huge well paid opportunities in data analytics, business intelligence and the like. However, the courses for these things have a majority of males, and so these professions may well have a predominance of males. Nobody restricts women entering these careers, doubts the quality of work or holds them back, in fact quite the reverse. But unless more join these careers males will be in the majority.

fits wrote: »

Its obviously an exaggeration of reality. But do you mean to say you are never half expected to take minutes in meetings (whether or not you do it), or that there wouldnt be underlying assumptions were you to announce pregnancy? Noone ever comments on your appearance? One of my favourite ones is that the (mostly male) employees in my organisation who work late in the evening never bother to clean up after themselves and leave the mess for the women (more who are in early) to deal with the following morning. The implicit message being that their time is more important than others.

Honestly, none of this has ever happened to me! we take turns taking minutes, I would occasionally get a comment on my appearance like that's a nice top or I like your shoes but mostly from women. I can't comment on if I announced a pregnancy but there are no part time mothers in my department so I don't think there would be an assumption that I would be different. We have cleaners but nobody makes messes anyway unless it's a few dirty cups.

Do most offices not have cleaners? The time I have in my job doesn't allow for cleaning duties aswell as my other work. Would think it strange that any employees are actually cleaning the office?