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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

1104105107109110272

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    Mrs Mc wrote: »
    Very warm today 8 miles easy to do. Legs are tired kept to the lower of my range just felt I didn't get into it at all avg pace 11.32 putting it down to the warm weather .... I hope !

    Snap for me yesterday too, was not feeling the love on my tempo. Sleep has been crap for a week too. It catches up :eek: I know you had a good nights sleep Sunday after your lsr, how has sleep been otherwise lately?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Good call. Just be especially aware of pain that increases as you run. Where is the niggle btw?

    Sounds like my weakness. You should see the state of me trying to do my side dips in front of a mirror and trying to keep my knee from going inwards....

    Is he cracking the whip too hard?! But I suppose 8 miles is *easy* now you're up to 15....... ;)

    It's the sprints bit that drew my attention!!! Tell me you meant strides chrislad.....eh eh?!

    Yup, chalk it up but absolutely delighted with your headphones conversion :D:D

    Cool so you pretty much did a PMP run plus warm up and cool down? Yes, the fourth mile of the tempo was fast but that was ok, you were well warmed up and the legs were on a roll. Perhaps the reason you found the first mile of the tempo so hard was that you increased the pace by nearly 3.5m/mi :eek:
    A more gentle transition will hurt less. That may mean increasing your warm up by half a mile or so so that you can gradually ease up to tempo pace. Well done. Still not sure about following a pace-type run with eight miles though. I'd prefer to see a 35-50 min recovery run before tackling 8.

    PMP + 2 mins is a big gap. Is this the pace recommended by your programme? Have you an option to ease down through your range as you warm up? How long are the recovery runs generally? Although a marathon newbie, you're not a complete newbie so give yourself a bit of slack and go by effort too. +1 to FD advice, maintaining cadence and shortening stride: also TFGR, head up, run tall. Oh and mob...not sure about the coconuts either but they might help with the cadence maintenance :pac:

    Just to be clear "he" is Dave Carrie not Mrs Mc's hubby :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Snap for me yesterday too, was not feeling the love on my tempo. Sleep has been crap for a week too. It catches up :eek: I know you had a good nights sleep Sunday after your lsr, how has sleep been otherwise lately?

    Not good am very busy in work so had to work late Monday night and did some work when I got home shut down the lap top at 10.45 and went straight to bed. Bad idea should have sat up and chilled for a while as I was awake all night thinking of work. Pressure is off hopefully tomorrow so ️hoping that helps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    nop98 wrote: »
    I did two really easy 5Ms on grass and am surprisingly niggly afterwards. Today's run got postponed as a result :(
    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Good call. Just be especially aware of pain that increases as you run. Where is the niggle btw?

    Left hip. Takes me a little by surprise, as previously, niggles have always been on the right side, it appeared out of nowhere after Monday's run.

    On Tuesday, it took about 5-7 minutes to loosen up. After that, it was fine during the run, but back afterwards. I can feel it when walking stairs, for example.

    Will do another gentle 5M tomorrow morning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭Chilli Con Kearney


    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!

    Also, relieved to hear I'm not the only one struggling in the heat at the moment. It's tough going out there!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Mrs Mc


    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!

    Also, relieved to hear I'm not the only one struggling in the heat at the moment. It's tough going out there!

    I've been using a belt with two small bottles on it. It's very comfortable only the seams of the bottle carriers ripped after 3 uses but got back onto Amazon where I bought it and they replaced it. Will see how it goes over coming weeks I notice some belts have plastic holders for bottles which might be better. I can fit phone tissue gel and emergency money in the pouch of the belt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,324 ✭✭✭chrislad


    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!

    Also, relieved to hear I'm not the only one struggling in the heat at the moment. It's tough going out there!

    Lidl had water belts for sale a couple of weeks ago. It was 6.99 for a belt with two water bottles, plastic holders too. I've used it on 3 LSRs so far, with no issues. It has a pouch at the front that can hold a iPhone 5C and 2 packs of jelly tots too :)

    Did my morning run just now, as I wanted to get it done before work and half a full 2 days off before the LSR. Did a decent pace the first two miles, then when a bit faster than PMP for the last two, as I was running a bit late! I find it amazing that after 2 miles of running that I can easily push myself faster now, where normally my pace used to always trend downwards, even with the easier runs!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,007 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    I use one of the belts lidl were selling a few weeks ago the one with the single large bottle . A few minutes into a run I don't really notice I'm wearing it .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Just to be clear "he" is Dave Carrie not Mrs Mc's hubby
    Haha wouldn't want to be implicating Mr Mc would we?! ;) Although I'm sure *he* is capable of a bit o' whip cracking :D (DOWN TbL, down boy ;) )
    Mrs Mc wrote: »
    Not good am very busy in work so had to work late Monday night and did some work when I got home shut down the lap top at 10.45 and went straight to bed. Bad idea should have sat up and chilled for a while as I was awake all night thinking of work. Pressure is off hopefully tomorrow so ️hoping that helps.
    Ah good, winding down at night is hard, especially after a hard enough run, add to that work stress and .... :eek: Do you drink chamomile tea or anything like that? Definitely a good idea to put something in between work and sleep.
    nop98 wrote: »
    Left hip. Takes me a little by surprise, as previously, niggles have always been on the right side, it appeared out of nowhere after Monday's run.

    On Tuesday, it took about 5-7 minutes to loosen up. After that, it was fine during the run, but back afterwards. I can feel it when walking stairs, for example.

    Will do another gentle 5M tomorrow morning.
    No harm having that seen to before Saturday. It could be a simple muscle weakness that spasms when tired. That can be easily released and strengthened. Then again it might not... so no harm to find out what it is either. At this stage of the programme, after a few weeks of mounting long runs, any and every weakness will be exposed. It's not the end of the world...as long as you get it seen to now.
    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!

    Also, relieved to hear I'm not the only one struggling in the heat at the moment. It's tough going out there!
    Hehe chilli, nice going :) It has been tough in the heat this week, in a way that's good. If you are racing this weekend and have been affected by the heat during the week you will know to adjust your race plan accordingly.

    I used a double water carrier from Lidl or Aldi last year during training but not during the marathon. I find carrying a bottle throws my stride (not sure if that's actual or psychological). As long as the belt is securely fastened around the narrowest part of your torso, it shouldn't be annoying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!
    I usually just carry a 70cl bottle of water. It's a bit of a pain but better than having no water at all. I really wouldn't want to have to stop off at a shop, but I might have to do that when we start hitting the 20 milers.
    I normally fill it and put it in the freezer the night before, so I've got ice cold water at least for the first hour.

    I used to use a belt, but I found all the sloshing around too off putting.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭aquinn


    What are people using to carry water for the lsrs? I stopped to buy water in a shop at the weekend but would rather not stop if possible. I see some runners with belts. Are these annoying?? If people think not, any recommendations? I'm putting my gels in my phone carrier on my arm at the moment (as I'm not listening to music anymore dubgal)!

    Also, relieved to hear I'm not the only one struggling in the heat at the moment. It's tough going out there!

    Morning Chilli,
    We were recommended these last year as a novice so I bought it. On my first long run my arm nearly fell off with the weight but then you get warm and start to drink it and eventually get used to it. It was great also for shoving jellies and gels into the pocket and then shorts had leap card and keys.

    http://www.wiggle.com/ultimate-performance-kielder-handheld-bottle-carrier/

    I also added in one of these, don't order caffeine like I did anyway. Citrus is good:

    http://www.wiggle.com/high5-zero-drink/

    Big debate last year before DCM over carrying water and water belts. I was happy I had this with me and family gave me small pre-mixed dialorite enroute too. I handed over the carrier at mile 22 and only then started to use water stops as then you avoid all the crowds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭Firedance


    aquinn wrote: »
    Morning Chilli,
    We were recommended these last year as a novice so I bought it. On my first long run my arm nearly fell off with the weight but then you get warm and start to drink it and eventually get used to it. It was great also for shoving jellies and gels into the pocket and then shorts had leap card and keys.

    http://www.wiggle.com/ultimate-performance-kielder-handheld-bottle-carrier/

    I also added in one of these, don't order caffeine like I did anyway. Citrus is good:

    http://www.wiggle.com/high5-zero-drink/

    Big debate last year before DCM over carrying water and water belts. I was happy I had this with me and family gave me small pre-mixed dialorite enroute too. I handed over the carrier at mile 22 and only then started to use water stops as then you avoid all the crowds.

    +1 to this, I bought one too, was very glad to have it on the day with the heat etc, that water bottle is 600ml but the holder will take an ordinary 500ml bottle either, in fact if anyone wants to take my holder they're most welcome to it, its just sitting in a drawer here (no idea where the bottle is!!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    For water, I have two of those over the hand bottles. One 300mL for shorter runs (6 miles +) and a 500mL for long runs (10 miles +). Similar to the pic I've attached. I don't even have to really grip it as it just rests on my hand so I barely notice it.

    On my long runs I have a belt pouch that a friend lent me for my phone, keys, gels etc. On my last LSR during miles when I didn't really need the water I just looped the belt through the bottle that worked just fine for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    Cool so you pretty much did a PMP run plus warm up and cool down? Yes, the fourth mile of the tempo was fast but that was ok, you were well warmed up and the legs were on a roll. Perhaps the reason you found the first mile of the tempo so hard was that you increased the pace by nearly 3.5m/mi :eek:
    A more gentle transition will hurt less. That may mean increasing your warm up by half a mile or so so that you can gradually ease up to tempo pace. Well done. Still not sure about following a pace-type run with eight miles though. I'd prefer to see a 35-50 min recovery run before tackling 8.

    Thanks. I think I should speed up my warm up then. I walked a mile but could have stood to job at least half of that. Should help with the second mile blues!

    Should I run tonight's run at recovery pace instead of easy pace then? I'm not racing on Saturday so this week's plan is a normal-ish one. 8 miles is slightly longer than usual though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭nop98


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    No harm having that seen to before Saturday. It could be a simple muscle weakness that spasms when tired. That can be easily released and strengthened. Then again it might not... so no harm to find out what it is either. At this stage of the programme, after a few weeks of mounting long runs, any and every weakness will be exposed. It's not the end of the world...as long as you get it seen to now.

    Oh.. I think I might have you more worried than needed (or now I am worried myself!)..

    Day off yesterday was well timed, and this morning it was barely noticeable. Did an easy 5+ miles this morning and it went fine (once I warmed up).

    That said, I am seeing the physio later this afternoon anyway, so will definitely mention it. Thanks for the heads-up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭jake1970


    Speaking at the slowest runner here, I can say that as soon as I pull my head up, and plant my eyes forward my whole form changes for the better. I have a tendency to drop my head and look at the ground so I'm constantly having to pull my head up. It does help, well it helps me anyway.

    Also, even when running as slow as I do (and this might be hard to describe) but I try to focus on my toes and make sure they are lifting with a little bounce. I'm a mid-foot striker but I find with a little bounce off the toes my form holds up better.

    Maybe that helps but it's ok if it doesn't. My slow run is probably your fast walk! :pac: You're all leagues away from me as running goes! But anyway, that's how I manage to run (slowly) and keep good form.!
    Firedance wrote: »
    Jake, I've no idea if this is the right thing to do but I had similar issues to you, now for recovery runs I shorten my stride slightly & take quick but short steps while maintaining my normal form, because my steps are still 'quick' it doesnt feel like I'm plodding along but because there are a lot fewer of them over a distance I'm going slower - does that even make sense!? took me a while to get the hang of it though so practice till you find a form that suits you.
    I get that a bit too on the slower runs. I feel like I'm dragging myself around a bit and feel unnecessarily heavy on my feet. I've taken to keeping my back straight, trying to lift my knees up a bit higher and taking shorter steps. I look something like Monty Python's King Arthur horse-riding. I find the coconuts kind of cumbersome on the longer runs though.
    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    PMP + 2 mins is a big gap. Is this the pace recommended by your programme? Have you an option to ease down through your range as you warm up? How long are the recovery runs generally? Although a marathon newbie, you're not a complete newbie so give yourself a bit of slack and go by effort too. +1 to FD advice, maintaining cadence and shortening stride: also TFGR, head up, run tall. Oh and mob...not sure about the coconuts either but they might help with the cadence maintenance :pac:

    Thanks everyone for the great advice.
    Dubgal you are right, PMP +2mins is a big gap, too big. I had quick read of the P&D book and recovery runs are HMP +2mins:o. Happy days, 30 secs quicker:). from now on i will run the recovery runs by feel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Pink11


    Hi everyone, hope everyone is feeling good. Haven't been able to keep up or post as much as I'd like to. So sorry to read some of you had to drop out/have some injuries.

    Taking it easy this week too because of the 10 miler on Saturday. Going to take my time running that too but can't wait.

    Currently debating if I'll try one more pair of shoes before I decide on my marathon pair. Happy with my Kayano 21s but wondering can I get a lighter shoe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 210 ✭✭Windorah


    I couldn't get used to the belts last time around. I just found the water sloshing and the weight of it was too much for me!! I usually put gels in my phone carrier on my arm and this week I got one of those "easy hold" bottles in the marathon pack from LIDL.

    I only just recommitted myself last week after having constant niggling knee and hip injuries. I went a bit mad though and did a
    12 mile LSR on Monday,
    5 mile Tuesday
    , 8 mile Wednesday,
    6mile Friday,
    6 mile Saturday,
    5 mile Sunday.
    I had planned on doing my next LSR on Monday but I think the legs were in shock! I ended up just doing an 8.5 mile on Monday and got a decent 14 miles in today. I could have kept going but I'm conscious not to tempt fate (and injuries) too much!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭FeenaM


    I was just reading this article about how runs over 3 hours are not beneficial to a novice marathon trainee such as myself and was wondering what the thoughts are on this from the mentors? I have planned 5 or 6 runs that will take me well over 3 hours so should I just run to 3 hours, run a bit faster for some of them or what do most people do?

    http://running.competitor.com/2014/07/training/are-you-overemphasizing-the-marathon-long-run_55719

    By the way, picked up the water belt that whoopsa recommended in Heatons and its really good.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    FeenaM wrote: »
    I was just reading this article about how runs over 3 hours are not beneficial to a novice marathon trainee such as myself and was wondering what the thoughts are on this from the mentors? I have planned 5 or 6 runs that will take me well over 3 hours so should I just run to 3 hours, run a bit faster for some of them or what do most people do?

    I actually posted a comment on this very comment on my blog (which reminds me need to catch up on that :o)

    http://simplestriding.blogspot.ie/search/label/TRAINING


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭ZV Yoda


    I actually posted a comment on this very comment on my blog (which reminds me need to catch up on that :o)

    http://simplestriding.blogspot.ie/search/label/TRAINING

    Interesting reads.... although isn't it the case (with HHN1 anyway) that for most people only the 16 & 20 mile LSRs would reach / exceed 3 hours?

    And for anybody targeting sub 4 hr DCM, then only the 20 mile LSR would reach / exceed 3 hrs (and not by much).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭spaceylou


    For water, I have two of those over the hand bottles. One 300mL for shorter runs (6 miles +) and a 500mL for long runs (10 miles +). Similar to the pic I've attached. I don't even have to really grip it as it just rests on my hand so I barely notice it.

    On my long runs I have a belt pouch that a friend lent me for my phone, keys, gels etc. On my last LSR during miles when I didn't really need the water I just looped the belt through the bottle that worked just fine for me.

    I have something similar to the picture but find my hands get really sweaty with it and like DubGal am convinced it puts off my posture, especially if I forget to switch hands regularly. Then again others might get on fine with it, can be hard to tell without trying a few times!

    ___

    Not doing DCM15 (have eyes on DCM16) but following this thread and am super impressed by everyone - keep up the good work! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭FeenaM


    ZV Yoda wrote: »
    Interesting reads.... although isn't it the case (with HHN1 anyway) that for most people only the 16 & 20 mile LSRs would reach / exceed 3 hours?

    And for anybody targeting sub 4 hr DCM, then only the 20 mile LSR would reach / exceed 3 hrs (and not by much).

    20 mile run @ 10 min/ml is 3 hrs 20 min and then I was planning on doing a 22 mile run so 3 hr 40 min :eek:


  • Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thanks for that blog link Myles, did me good to read that :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    ZV Yoda wrote: »
    Interesting reads.... although isn't it the case (with HHN1 anyway) that for most people only the 16 & 20 mile LSRs would reach / exceed 3 hours?

    And for anybody targeting sub 4 hr DCM, then only the 20 mile LSR would reach / exceed 3 hrs (and not by much).

    If you were targetting 4 hours as an example it works out about 9.10 pace, that means realistically running at easy intensity might have you closer to 10.30 pace for your LSR's

    In this case I would argue that optimally you would be capping your long run at 17 miles at your peak. For those with target times slower you may be running even less as a peak. This might seem a contentious point and this probably isn't the best place for it given the plans being used.

    It's about balancing the mental benefits of going as close to race distance in training to know you can complete while sticking to the physical limitations of the body and allowing it adapt to the training. I think people focus on the long run but for most people running there first marathon its about prepping the body (tendons, ligaments muscles) properly. 3 hours will be more than enough to prep the aerobic capacity.

    Cramping and bonking are usually the 2 biggest issues on the day and people usually associate these with lack of aerobic endurance from the long run but the truth be told muscular fatigue causing bad form (your easy runs during the week develop muscles, tendons and ligaments for the pounding) and fueling (running your runs at the right intensity and not running your easy runs too hard) are where many can make big gains in this regards

    Caveat: There are many experienced marathoners who may not agree with these points here so I am not saying other approaches are wrong. Apologies to the mentors for encroaching but it was not to comment on training plans but rather to show focus of other aspects of training are just as if not more important than making sure you hit that 20 miler that seems a staple in many training logs and anecdotes. Train to get the best out of yourself doesn't always mean longer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    I actually posted a comment on this very comment on my blog (which reminds me need to catch up on that :o)

    http://simplestriding.blogspot.ie/search/label/TRAINING


    It's an interesting question.

    I remember about 10 years ago (maybe longer) the Irish runner published a training schedule for DCM which was entirely based on time. I would have loved to have heard the outcome for those who followed that and particularly the experiences of those who were at the slower end compared to those at the faster end.

    IIRC the Hanson's have also published plans where the long run maxes out at about 16 miles.

    An important point to remember is that a lot of people running a marathon for the first time including most of the people on this thread are fairly novice runners. As a general principle for development more frequent shorter runs is better than fewer longer runs with the latter only really applicable to experienced runners who are in specific preparation for a marathon (and even then I'm not 100% convinced).

    I'm open to the idea that 3 hours is as far as you want anybody to run in training for a marathon but given the number of people who have completed a marathon while following a plan that has a 20 miler as its longest run I'd be cautious before recommending it to anybody. I do have a friend who only really seemed to top out his performance when he started training for ultra's with back to back long runs at the weekend but he's part of a completely different population.

    Within this thread there might be a place for it for someone who is struggling with lots of niggling injuries and who maybe has poor form that contributes to the injuries. If however you're following the plan without undue difficulty then I'd recommend seeing it through.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭jake1970


    I actually posted a comment on this very comment on my blog (which reminds me need to catch up on that :o)

    http://simplestriding.blogspot.ie/search/label/TRAINING

    Great blog Myles and best of luck with the recovery.

    im doing the P&D 55mile 12 week plan for DCM and my 20 mile long run will be around the 3hr mark.

    which is more beneficial running 20 miles or running for 3 hours on the long run ?

    If you are running say 20 miles in 3hrs on your long run would the P&D plan be more suitable for someone that can run at that pace for the long run or would it still need tweaking?

    Im only asking for future reference because i dont think i will go to far off plan on this training cycle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭This Fat Girl Runs


    If you were targetting 4 hours as an example it works out about 9.10 pace, that means realistically running at easy intensity might have you closer to 10.30 pace for your LSR's

    In this case I would argue that optimally you would be capping your long run at 17 miles at your peak. For those with target times slower you may be running even less as a peak. This might seem a contentious point and this probably isn't the best place for it given the plans being used.

    It's about balancing the mental benefits of going as close to race distance in training to know you can complete while sticking to the physical limitations of the body and allowing it adapt to the training. I think people focus on the long run but for most people running there first marathon its about prepping the body (tendons, ligaments muscles) properly. 3 hours will be more than enough to prep the aerobic capacity.

    Cramping and bonking are usually the 2 biggest issues on the day and people usually associate these with lack of aerobic endurance from the long run but the truth be told muscular fatigue causing bad form (your easy runs during the week develop muscles, tendons and ligaments for the pounding) and fueling (running your runs at the right intensity and not running your easy runs too hard) are where many can make big gains in this regards

    Caveat: There are many experienced marathoners who may not agree with these points here so I am not saying other approaches are wrong. Apologies to the mentors for encroaching but it was not to comment on training plans but rather to show focus of other aspects of training are just as if not more important than making sure you hit that 20 miler that seems a staple in many training logs and anecdotes. Train to get the best out of yourself doesn't always mean longer.

    Interestingly, my coach wants me to hit 16-18 miles as my longest run. I've asked her can I go 20 miles for the mental benefit as I'd feel better on the day knowing I've at least hit 20 miles previously. The last 6 would be less of an unknown and less daunting than say 10 miles. So I guess I need to rethink that request!

    Having said that, I'm not sure how I feel about the '3 hours' cut off though, seeing how all my LSR's are over 3 hours. My 14 miles this Sunday was 3:38:00. Then again, I'm not planning on running a fast marathon so maybe it doesn't count for me?*

    *I was considering not even posting on this issue and slinking away with my tail between my legs hoping no one would notice. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Within this thread there might be a place for it for someone who is struggling with lots of niggling injuries and who maybe has poor form that contributes to the injuries. If however you're following the plan without undue difficulty then I'd recommend seeing it through.

    At the time I was actually writing that post it was part of an overall seminar I was working on with regards to the high rate of niggles and injuries in relatively inexperienced marathoners with the view that improved consistency throughout the overall would provide better gains than the mental confidence derived from the longer runs.

    It should be said though that with proper strength and conditioning of hip flexors (Quads), stabilizers (TFL/ITB/Glute Medius and Minimus) and posterior chain muscles (Calf, Hamstrings, Glutes) the injury risks can be offset somewhat but again this post was derived from research I was doing on the matter coming from an injury treatment background which showed evidence that this is an element that doesn't get the attention it deserves in many runners (not just novice marathoners but right up to elite level to an extent). I can think of one example from here of this who I think actually is bio-mechanically better suited to a marathon at the moment than most "experienced" runners who will be toeing the line at DCM

    As you say for people here I would say if it is not broke don't fix it this was just an opinion piece at the time which dealt with the topic brought up and is again individualized to the persons particular level (i.e training that a sub 3 hour runner might not suit a sub 4 hour runner in more ways that intensities of sessions and the idea that a 20 mile run is completely different depending on where you are coming from)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭Myles Splitz


    jake1970 wrote: »
    Great blog Myles and best of luck with the recovery.

    im doing the P&D 55mile 12 week plan for DCM and my 20 mile long run will be around the 3hr mark.

    which is more beneficial running 20 miles or running for 3 hours on the long run ?

    If you are running say 20 miles in 3hrs on your long run would the P&D plan be more suitable for someone that can run at that pace for the long run or would it still need tweaking?

    Im only asking for future reference because i dont think i will go to far off plan on this training cycle.

    It's not a matter of which is better it is more a case of balancing risk and reward.

    As you get to the 3 hour mark the rate aerobic benefits begin to level off while the injury risk begins to fall off. Our hip stablizing muscles fatigue to the point where we start to rock side to side and slump down on the hip for want of a better description which creates bad movement patterns that makes the risk of injury greater. At this point your asking yourself is an extra mile today worth a niggle for the next 2-3 days or is it a case where stopping today means I can get out running an extra day or two every 2-3 weeks.

    Some people will need the mental confidence of the extra few mile and in those cases the reward does outweigh the risk but its balancing mental and physical preparation for the big day.


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