Bjj the most effective Martial Art?

^^ there are definitely techniques taught in some martial arts that are less than effective. I wouldn't say that a punch is a punch. It depends on the level of contact involved. A punch from a light/semi contact point scoring ma will not be the same as a punch from Muay Thai or boxing.

As regards bjj blue belts beating other black belts, there is a huge variance there.

Are we talking about no rules, points, stand ups?

The main advantage a bjj practitioner had over some other ma's is knowledge of grappling. If they can get the fight to the ground they are at a huge advantage. This does not count for all ma's. Greco, judo, catch wrestling all focus on grappling to various degrees, so the bjj guy loses the advantage he held.

tl;dr 1993 called, wants it's discussion back

Don't think anybody mentioned self defence

As a BJJ blue belt who has studied various MA's including Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and Judo I would disagree with that statement.

Fights start standing up and in order for a BJJ'er to make the most of their skill set, they need to take it to the ground. Most blue belts would be quite proficient at this but if you are fighting against a seasoned fighter from another discipline, then this is not as easy as it sounds as you have to get in there first, without getting your head knocked off, they also have good movement, balance etc. Fighting against a Muay Thai fighter you risk eating a knee or getting into a clinch, a boxer is well used to circling and is light on their feet, and a kickboxer has an arsenal of kicks and punches at their disposal.

On the ground, then I can't see anybody who hasn't trained in Wrestling, Sambo or Judo having much chance but getting it to the ground is the issue.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Back in the 90's BJJ was a different animal. Typically, being a BJJ fighter meant you covered up, threw a few straight kicks to set distance, shoot in for a messy tackle take-down, clock the other guy in the face a few times, then RNC him when he tries to roll onto his stomach.

That's what it looked like when fighting other arts, not so much with two guys from bjj rolling.

I would contend that if you took a blue belt today and put him in front of, say, a tkd black belt, it would look largely similar to what you described, minus perhaps the Royce leg stomp, but probably better takedowns

cletus wrote: »

I would contend that if you took a blue belt today and put him in front of, say, a tkd black belt, it would look largely similar to what you described, minus perhaps the Royce leg stomp, but probably better takedowns

Some people take to dealing with strikes well enough, but other people get completely freaked out by them and all their other skills go down the drain.

Also, TKD gets a bad rep, but I've seen some TKD guys who can really move and throw some hard shots.

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face, and I'm not so sure that the average BJJ blue belt has as much experience getting punched in the face as they used to.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

He does BJJ!

/thread!

cletus wrote: »

I just think that the scenario in the op hasn't changed much in 20 odd years

Ah come on now. The whole BJJ culture used to be about defeating other styles. That used to be the yard-stick used to decide if someone qualified as a blue belt - if they could reliably defeat anyone their own size who hadn't trained BJJ.

It's not like that any more. For one thing, with more schools around, and with that you get a much higher variation in standards. You pick a blue belt at random and there isn't going to be as high a chance of them having a good fighting ability.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ah come on now. The whole BJJ culture used to be about defeating other styles. That used to be the yard-stick used to decide if someone qualified as a blue belt - if they could reliably defeat anyone their own size who hadn't trained BJJ.

It's not like that any more. For one thing, with more schools around, and with that you get a much higher variation in standards. You pick a blue belt at random and there isn't going to be as high a chance of them having a good fighting ability.

I got my blue belt in 2008. I pretty much sorted training around the same time, for a range of reasons, and haven't managed to train consistently since. Any of the blue belts I trained with were tough as ****. The guys who didn't want to "fight" usually left well before blue belt.

Perhaps the intervening years have softened the blue belt as a species

RoboRat wrote: »

... Fighting against a Muay Thai fighter you risk eating a knee or getting into a clinch, a boxer is well used to circling and is light on their feet, and a kickboxer has an arsenal of kicks and punches at their disposal.

On the ground, then I can't see anybody who hasn't trained in Wrestling, Sambo or Judo having much chance but getting it to the ground is the issue.

I agree those styles could be be able to handle the situation. But I don't think that were the MAs that the OP was referring to, I think anyway. There's not really such a thing as a blackbelt in muay thai, boxing, wrestling etc.
In sambo the belt is red or blue and its only for tying your jacket, not a rank.
I understood the OP to be referring only to random TMA blackbelts, which I'd consider to be completely different to the above.

(Obviously, Judo has the belt system. But I think its more fair to group it with the above arts, rather than TMAs)

For example. Japanese JiuJitsu blackbelt takes around the same time to earn as a BJJ blue belt. And given that BJJ is about practising, and drilling effective techniques, and JJJ has a much wider syllabus with less regard for effectiveness - I'd back the blue belt to handle a JJJ blackblet every time
I've read plenty of stories of JJJ BB's taking up BJJ and being humbled by white belts. In some cases they returned the next week with a white belt on.
Using JJJ as an example there, i'm pretty sure that the time frame for BBs om most TMAs is similar.

(If he the OP or anyone was actually suggesting that a bluebelt in BJJ defeats all MAs at the top level, that's simply ridiculous. Sambo alone proves that's nonsense)

Doug Cartel wrote: »

These days that is not really the case. Yes a lot of BJJ guys also train for MMA, but the idea taking down someone who is trying to punch you in the face is not as commonly trained as it used to be, and it is often seen as a separate class to "BJJ". Even in schools that teach take-downs and striking, you get people neglecting these as they just do the BJJ class.

I can't imagine how somebody could earn a bluebelt in bjj and not train takedowns. every BJJ match starts standing.
And I accept that not everyone competes, but I'd assume that the hobbiest who'll never do takedowns, will remain white belts. But maybe I'm off the mark there, I can only look at it from my own perspective.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Also with the higher number of schools, there is a higher variation in standards. Some places really care about full fighting ability, some places just care about your IBJJF-legal competition game. Some places are just more lax than the others. If we take it to extremes, there are the on-line places that supposedly give out blue belts to people that never rolled.

I'm not saying that BJJ is useless now, far from it. I'm just saying that it is now very unclear what standard someone is if you just know that they are a BJJ blue belt and don't know where they train.

That's fair enough, when its an subject assessment there will always be varying standards. However, competition is still really a fantastic leveler in that regard. And one only need a few guys from a gym to compete to remain in touch with the standard.
Overall, I'd imagine that the standard globally at blue/purple/brown is now higher than it was 20 years ago.

RoboRat wrote: »

This is true, the whole promotion thing is not quite defined, some clubs promote based on attendance, some on knowledge and some on ability... some on all 3, some on variations of all 3.

I read recently on another forum about a guy that got his purple in 3.5years. Not an unheard of timeframe, but this guy didn't feel he was purple as the other blues still have him a hard time.
Turns out his coach ranked based on attendence only. By all means, include it as a factor, but purely on attendence is silly imo.

For me, a white gets promoted to a blue when they can hold their own with blue belts. Your stripes are given on your knowledge and time.

I'd agree with that on both counts. And if somebody advances faster than the standard "time" for the stripes, then there's no reason they can't be promoted before they've full stripes, or awarded double stripes early on.

Stripes are so hot right now.

Some places even go white belt, white belt with a blue stripe lengthwise down the middle, blue belt with a white stripe and then the solid blue. Each of these belts having four stages marked with stripes on the end of the belt.

cletus wrote: »

I never received any stripes, neither did anybody in our club as far as I remember. You were just white till you were blue

We don't either. But from seeing other guys at comps, we're in the minority.

cletus wrote: »

SBG have a white w/blue stripe bent between white and blue. I've never heard heard of 2 stripped bekts, but it might exist.
Afaik, It comes from the junior belt system that have striped belts between grey/yellow/orange/green