Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Proposed sheep tagging changes.

2

Comments

  • #32
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    rangler1 wrote: »
    As I said before that once hoggets start to be killed, the traceability gets a bit iffy, the killing line is moving too fast for the factory to record manually 15 nos for every lamb, so they just give up recording properly. It's ironic that there's no compulsion on them to record them properly
    The department propose that lambs going straight from farm of birth to slaughter don't really need eid tag ,especially before Christmas.
    As far as I know the Uk is all eid and the Northern Ireland is individual EID tags, funnily enough they've done it so they can sell their lambs down here.
    I wouldn't be expecting the factory to pay for EID, they might say they are but they'll have dropped the lamb price by ten cents a kilo beforehand.....always remember the sheep pay for everything
    Very simple solution to that traceability problem for the factories.
    Let them eid tag the lambs themselves in the lairage and correlate that tag with the farmers tag.Very simple and the processor can then scan all the tags.No problems with human error there .
    One of the Dept. proposals is to allow all lambs sent direct from farm of origon to slaughter to be allowed a tip tag but under their other proposals all sheep will need full eid by at least 9 months.


  • #33
    orm0nd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭orm0nd


    Willfarman wrote: »
    The individual numbers for sheep is a farce Imo. We should never have let it start. An individual flock number and let it be Eid is what should have happened. The price of the tags would fall as a result.

    the IFA are mostly to blame for this , roll back to 01 when tagging was been introduced IFA were strongly opposing any sort of tagging for sheep

    then F&M outbreak with a certain Mr. W. importing lambs from scotland through NI & into southern plants.

    marts were suspended & we had to accept any form of tags we got


  • #34
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    paddysdream wrote: »
    Very simple solution to that traceability problem for the factories.
    Let them eid tag the lambs themselves in the lairage and correlate that tag with the farmers tag.Very simple and the processor can then scan all the tags.No problems with human error there .
    One of the Dept. proposals is to allow all lambs sent direct from farm of origon to slaughter to be allowed a tip tag but under their other proposals all sheep will need full eid by at least 9 months.

    Sheep will still have to pay for the tags plus the cost of the extra labour to put them in and correlate them,
    That'd definitely cost more than 10c/kg


  • #35
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Are the chips cheaper if they all have the same number encoded?


  • #36
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Are the chips cheaper if they all have the same number encoded?
    Couldn't imagine they would be.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    gazahayes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 454 ✭✭gazahayes


    What happens to the eid tags on the killing line surely the chips can be reused again?


  • #38
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
    FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.


  • #39
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
    FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.
    Yes, but do packets of mince run around outside in the Irish weather for 4 or 5 years?
    Similar but not the same.


  • #40
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Chips only cost pennies. All it has to do is "reflect" it's number when it gets a pulse from a reader.
    FFS, Lidl are putting similar into €2 packets of mince to make sure you don't swipe them.

    I wonder given the fact the chips have to written with specific numbers as well add to the cost?
    I would imagine mice just needs a generic chip, whereas each EID needs the inidividual number.


  • #41
    Green farmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,004 ✭✭✭Green farmer


    . I was just thinking about store lambs. You bring out the runts and sell them as stores at €40 a head for them,Still cost you a €1 for the tag. Won't be long adding up.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    jmrc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭jmrc


    how much is a chip in a dog or horse?
    if we were to chip the lambs day one or what ever then i could see the value but the tags are a complete heart ache.
    tags and sheep wire do not make a good mix.


  • #43
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Eating the dinner and that comment about dog and horse tracability has put me right off!

    On a more serious note its a rumen bolus that's used with sheep.Not used much here or in the UK and even with an EID bolus you still need an(black I think) ear tag.Still a loss rate with these(pretty low though)plus the recovery rate in factories has to be 100% or you run the risk of foodchain contamination(back to the gee gee's again) so processors aren't as keen on them.Plus cost of bolus would ,I imagine,far exceed that of a set of 2 ear tags.
    Chipping ala dogs and horses would not really work with sheep as to scan either you need to hold the wand quiet close to read and at the most you are doing a couple of animals at a time unlike say a killing line or a mart intake.
    Was it not about 15 euro or so to chip a dog?Is it not becoming mandatory for pups in the next year or two?
    Much bigger uptake in Spain and Portugal I read somewhere but then these are in feedlots mainly and think its Government trained and paid technicians who insert the bolus.
    Think the option is in Ireland to use the bolus system but cost issues etc. would make it unviable


  • #44
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    I think the cost of the bolus is around 4 quid


  • #45
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Skins come off and the ears go into a bin. Traceability stops at the factory gates. No point in individual numbers. A flock number only Eid tag and Have it in every Sheep in your flock is a simple workable system.


  • #46
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Skins come off and the ears go into a bin. Traceability stops at the factory gates. No point in individual numbers. A flock number only Eid tag and Have it in every Sheep in your flock is a simple workable system.

    As was pointed out earlier, the thing driving up the price is the EID tag itself. Changing the number on it isn't going to save you anything. It still has to be made and programmed.

    This is just to make life easier for the factories and store lamb dealers. If they want an easier life let them pick up the tab. Let store lamb dealers order an EID tag for the lambs they bought, and let factories pay a premium for lambs with EID tags that covers the cost and labour. Otherwise let them put on their reading glasses and put it down as part of the process required to make money. Farmers get nothing out of it so why are they expected to pay? I'll do that when factories offer to pay a share of a 5 star ram Im buying - it is in their interests after all...


  • #47
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    The eid tags at a euro pice don't won't break the bank. It's the individual numbering on the Certs that has everyone fup ped up. Factories and farmers alike.


  • #48
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    This kind of demands on suppliers happens when there is goodwill between both parties or the customer has no other outlet for their product.
    Do factories have any goodwill with farmers? No as a large proportion of farmers distrust them.
    And we still have marts as a viable alternative to factories where farmer power is more evident than that of the factory


  • #49
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Willfarman wrote: »
    The eid tags at a euro pice don't won't break the bank. It's the individual numbering on the Certs that has everyone fup ped up. Factories and farmers alike.
    Everyone's situation is different but here a switch from tip tag (15 c. approx) to EID (1.20 approx) means an extra cost of upwards of 1k for absolutely no gain.
    Each and every lamb sold here is tagged only after being weighed and penned for sale whether for factory (95%) or mart.Like the vast majority of farmers never have to read sheep unless bought in ones.
    Tag in sequence and just put in first number,draw line and put in last numbered lamb.Two 4 or 5 digit numbers aint all that much of a problem.
    Eid with ewes is here a few years;all ewes 6 years down are eid at this stage so no bother with that but the idea of paying for an eid tag to facilitate factories and marts in saving money is a bit of a farce esp. when the tag in my lambs is there for less than 12 hours in most cases.
    Flock number tag is I think allowed in Scotland for lambs straight from farm to factory.No reason why its not allowed here as you can only trace the lamb to the farm gate and no further.Once you can ascertain which farm the lamb came from then what more is needed?


  • #50
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    I buy in a few lambs and find it a right pain in the hole to be reading and writing numbers. I used to just bang in my own tags but was pulled up for doing so.


  • #51
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I buy in a few lambs and find it a right pain in the hole to be reading and writing numbers. I used to just bang in my own tags but was pulled up for doing so.
    Will agree that eid with a scanner would suit store finishers esp large scale ones but for the vast majority of farmers it would just entail an extra cost in what's already a low margin industry with no benefit.
    Basically Eid will suit everyone (mart,factory,store finisher)apart from the person who actually lambs the ewe's and provides the raw material and the basis for the whole industry.
    The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two.Now you have to order a replacement tag to replace the missing one which could entail reading all the sheep and then deciding where the say the lamb or lambs missing tags came from.
    In reality if you buy even 50 replacement ewes from 3 farms and 5 of these sheep loose tags how are you to decide which is which.Maybe the red tag but is traceability out the window at this stage?
    Wonder how many of these were sold last year?Don't know if I have ever even seen one.


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    Green farmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,004 ✭✭✭Green farmer


    paddysdream wrote: »
    .

    The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two. /QUOTE


    That definitely gone ? As long as properly recorded in your flock register, that was a perfectly fine way of doing things.


  • #53
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Green farmer wrote: »
    paddysdream wrote: »
    .

    The rule allowing you to substitute your own tag with,I assume, correlation to the missing tag(yeah that happens!) is gone a year or two. /QUOTE


    That definitely gone ? As long as properly recorded in your flock register, that was a perfectly fine way of doing things.
    Think so but who knows?Thought you had to order a replacement one but stand to be corrected.


  • #54
    Cran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Cran


    There's an phone app Allflex tags have that can be used in UK to scan lambs. Not sure if fully up to speed but idea is will populate an electronic movement document, then email one to dept, one to place being moved and one to yourself to update your electronic flock register.

    Department role out an electronic movement form that all software suppliers can incorporate with an electronic flock book and I'll be more open to eid slaughter lambs. Otherwise no benefit only additional cost.


  • #55
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Essentially all a tag needs to do is correspond to the owner. And be easily read with a simple accurate paper trail. I think that a flock number only tag is enough in all sheep. A simple head count flock register similar to the sheep census to be filled every 3 weeks for all sheep over 6 months of age and kept would be a long way ahead of the current system.

    The current flock register causes much head scratching. The tagging even more so.


  • #56
    simonhm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 ✭simonhm


    The whole lot is for no nonsense. Ie


  • #57
    Bleating Lamb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭Bleating Lamb


    So when are these 'proposed changes' due for roll out?


  • #58
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.


  • #59
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    feargale wrote: »
    Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.

    yes
    to keep sheep you must be registered with the dept have them tagged and submit the annual sheep census


  • #60
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    feargale wrote: »
    Are there presently any legal requirements to tag sheep? I ask as a non-farmer. Thank you.

    Every sheep over 12 months of age must be double tagged, a plastic tag with your herd identifier and unique sequential identity number in one ear, and a second tag with the same number in the other ear. In addition, the second ears tag has a chip in it that can be read by a hand-held scanner.
    Any animal moving to another farm or to a mart/factory (under 1 year of age) must be tagged.
    Up to now these didnt need the electronic tag, but from next spring electronic tags will be manditory.
    All movements/tagging events/purchases must be recorded in your herd register.
    All sales must be recorded in triplicate in your sales register, with one copy being dispatched to the Dept. Ag.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    paddysdream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Bleating Lamb wrote: »
    So when are these 'proposed changes' due for roll out?

    As with all things in Ireland progress is slow but sure !!!!!!!!!!

    As of October 1st you can no longer purchase non EID tags for lambs.Those non EID tags you have in stock can be used on lambs until 31st May as far as I know.
    So the idea is to order enough tags this month to cover lamb sales till beginning of June 2019.

    Ordered ewe EID tags this week for ewe lambs being kept for breeding.Costing 1:40 a set with Co-Op Animal Health.Thats for an order of 100.Perhaps might be cheaper with a larger order.Priced the new lamb EID tags and was told they are 1 euro a piece.

    That's a rather pricey earring for wearing for,in many cases,4 or 5 hours.At todays lamb price its a one percent cut straight off the "profit" of each and every lamb you sell.That's on a factory lamb killing full weight .What about the 25 kg store mountain lamb making 40/50 euro ?2 or 3 percent of the gross price before even considering what the producer is actually making.
    Clearing a tenner a head on those lambs means that the extra EID cost (80/90 cent) is almost 10% of the profit.


Advertisement