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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread
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Could someone check the spreadsheet for week 6 for me please?
My total mileage at the end of week 5 was 122 miles but now in week 6 (after adding in a 5 miler today) it's only on 104 miles instead of 127.
It's hard enough building up the mileage without a bug in the tracker
Had the same problem, so just carried the correct totals for miles and kms from week 5. I see that some other novices have the same issue. Probably worth checking each week.0 -
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This week i start my 12 week plan(P&D) for Dublin.
Below is a breakdown of my training paces.
PMP: 7:30 m/m
My HM time is 1:32 from Bohermeen back in march. According to McMillian calculator that HM time gives me a marathon time of 3:13. Now seen as this is my first marathon i have decided to target a more conservative time of 3:20.
7:38 is the pace for 3:20 marathon but i have decided to train at 7:30, my thinking behind this is that it might make things a bit easier on the day:)
LSR: 9:00 - 8:15 m/m
According to P&D long runs should be between 10% to 20% slower than PMP. The runs should start out at the slower end of the range and you should pick up the pace to run the last 5 to 10 miles at about 10% slower than PMP.
MLR: 9:00 - 8:15 m/m
Medium long runs are runs of 11 to 15 miles and are the same pace as LSR.
General Aerobic: 8:37 m/m
GA runs should be between 15% to 25% slower than PMP. The main purpose for these runs is for increasing mileage. i will target 8:37 m/m(15%) for these runs but i will be flexible with these and i will see how im feeling on the day. I might even run some of these by feel
Lactate Threshold: 7:01 m/m
The LT runs are tempo runs that are run at your current 15k to HM pace, i don't have a 15k pace so i will do these HM pace.
VO2max: 6:09 m/m
P&D says that for marathoners VO2max sessions should be run at 5k pace.
Recovery: 9:20 m/m
the plan is a 12 week one and it peaks at 55 mile, im starting the plan 1 week early to allow for a mini taper for the Athlone HM.
There are 2 tune up races(10k), followed by a LSR, in the plan at 2 & 4 weeks out from the marathon and im not really sure what to do here. Whatever it is about 10k races but i seem to suffer more after these races and am more prone to injury after 10ks, more than say 5k or HM. Also the plan is only 12 weeks long and therefore there are less long runs so i think i will drop the tune up race at 4 weeks out and extend the LSR from 17 miles to 20+ miles.
That leaves the tune up race 2 weeks out to be sorted, i don't want to do the 10k race for fear of getting injured so close to DCM and i don't want to extend the long run either. Any advice on this would be gratefully received and any thoughts on the above paces.
Are you sure you are on the right thread, that is some serious running !!!
Sorry - cannot advise for something I cannot do:(
In my dreams I would love to be able to target running like that.. along with being 2 stone lighter....:D0 -
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wolfyboy555 wrote: »Back from 2.5 week holiday in Turkey. Didn't get any running in unfortunately so have a lot of miles to clock up to catch up with you guys. Went for first run back today...could feel the holiday food and booze!! I guess I will just stick to this weeks training programme and maybe do a longer lsr this weekend.
I am going to treat myself to some new running shoes. Any suggestions or shops? I am based in Lucan area. Budget probably around €100.
Hi wolfyboy555 welcome back Take it easy reintegrating, I wouldn't jump right in. You hadn't been doing a whole lot before holidays if I remember rightly, a few 6ks? There are (only) thirteen weeks left so if you are determined to see this through, slowly slowly does it ie no sudden leaps in mileage. If you could get out for three 6k runs between now and Saturday, that would be great. Depending how that goes, you could do an 8-10k on Sunday. Do that for two weeks and if you've been able to commit to that, we can look at transitioning into the Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan. How does that sound?
And +1 to the Amphibian King suggestion for shoes. Run Hub in Ashtown too take good care of you.0 -
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13 weeks to go, can you believe we'll be on a single figure count down before we know it?!
REVIEW
Last week saw most of you ramp up the lsr to 10 and 15 miles. You are really starting to gel as a group, I have been sitting here reading your reports and saying to myself 'these guys get it are starting to get it...time for me to retire...soon
'
Lots of discussion about prepping for your lsr and fuelling. Don't forget, Now is The Time
Doubts and motivation, some timely kicks up the gluteals:
We've also had some great advice going back and forwards, I'd like to remind you about TFGR's 'post of the week' here, thanks TFGR
Another 'post of the week' was Clearlier's advice for when motivation is low and getting out that door is not looking good:
"- if you're feeling awful and the last thing that you want to do is run then don't think about the 5 or 10 miles that's on your plan, instead just step outside the front door and run for 10 minutes. If after 10 minutes you still feel awful turn back and do the run another day. You'll still have done 20 minutes
There's a whole host of reasons why when you feel tired and lethargic you should go for a run. In many of those cases running will give you energy."
Ed Mc, who just ran a fantastic 24 hour debut in Belfast also has a super approach to getting those miles in:
"I just run Marty, that's all. Lace up the runners and run. I put the head down, shut off and run. There's no real quality involved, Just mile after mile." You can find his log here, he's not much for the ol' detail but you get the picture
Niggles:
A few of you are experiencing ongoing and/or new niggles (to be expected) and just in case you need reminding, have a quick look here about pain and when you can/can't run through it.
It's a good idea to remember the Rule of 3 for happy muscles and other bits:
1) stretch
2) foam roll
And now the miles are starting to ramp up
3) deep tissue/sports massage
I'd recommend stretching after every run, the more strenuous the run, the more attention you need to give to stretching.
Foam rolling is a matter of personal preference and need.
Sports massage again will vary from person to person but you should try work around the once a month frequency for now. Running is not always cheap, sorry folks
And like Clearlier suggested earlier, I'd be a fan of frequent physio visits for prevention rather than cure especially now that you are demanding your body does things it never dreamed of.....
No harm as well to have another go at the 30 Day Challenge.
Many have you have commented on the benefits of a strong core when tiring on the longer runs. My 'poison' is this
Start off at 10 reps, do them properly (controlled and slowly, remembering to breathe throughout) before you move up to 15, 20 etc.
Staying slow
Most of you are 'getting' the need to run slow in order to build endurance for the task ahead. Here's Clearlier's super-post in case you missed it
And an extract from Myles Splitz:
"Long Run Pace
Running at Marathon pace too frequently will actually make you less efficient for running marathons:
Without getting too technical running at this [marathon pace] intensity will impact the following two aspects:
Muscle Fibre recruitment - Slow easy running will be focused more towards type 1 fibres which contain the most mitochondrial density (basically the things which take oxygen from the blood and absorb it into muscles). Running at MP intensity will lend itself to more fast/intermediate twitch fibre recruitment which are less fatigue resistant and and contain less mitochondria.
Think of this like trying to win a drinking contest with a straw when you are able to chug.
Fuel - Easy running focuses on burning fat as a fuel source. There is roughly a 2 hour supply of carbs. Running at Marathon Effort increases the rate of glycogen break down so we are training to become more efficient at training at that pace (feels easier to sustain marathon pace) however the fuel supply doesn't change and ultimately unless you are a Kenya running the WR you are going to exceed this time and as such you will still hit the wall.
The easier pace runs allow the body to get used to putting fat into the mix. Essentially we are watering down the fuel supply to allow the body to have enough to survive the shortage in the later stages of the race. The longer you are on your feet the more important this is (+4hr running be it marathons or ultra's)
I know it seems contradictory but running slower for the most part will lead to a faster and easier day come October."
Juggling
Many of you are also feeling the pinch as the demands of marathon training begin to impinge on life and work. There were some great discussions on page 148 re run-commuting and lots of satisfaction from those of you who are able to get out first thing and get it done and dusted for the day. Don't forget, the marathon starts on the morning, so.....
Finally...
LSR in the Park 8 August:
PJD has organised a lsr on Saturday week (8/8) in the Phoenix Park, starting 9:30am. Firedance, Laura_ac3 and FBOT01 (;) ) have kindly volunteered to jump in, thank you!
Thanks PJD for getting the ball rolling, nice work. Now we just need a route planner...
The 'boards plan' people will be on a step back week and *only* running 14 miles. The HHN1 followers will be on 12 miles so we really just need a 12 mile route with a mile or two tagged on at the beginning or end for the boards plan.
I'll suggest 3 groups: 9-10 m/mi pace, 10-11 m/mi pace and 11-12 m/mi pace. Or we can do it by target: 3.5-4, 4.5, 5+ etc. What do you think? Each group will start off at the slower end of their range and depending on numbers, conditions on the day, pace can increase as the run progresses.
Rule #1: no one runs alone
WEEK AHEAD
HHN1 maintain and consolidate the mid-week mileage but take a step back at the weekend to 7 miles in preparation for the week after when the lsr jumps to 12.
Boards plan followers see the mid-week pace run increase from two weeks ago to five miles, giving a total of seven incl w/u and c/d. The lsr takes a one mile jump up to 16. Now we're talking
ROCK N ROLL HALF
Some of you (TFGR, Stevo, Pink and....? ) are running this Sunday in the RnR half, very best of luck. Some of you are using this as a lsr. Be very careful....Make yourself a pace band such as thihttp://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/runners-world-pace-band-generator/3918.htmls andDO NOT DEVIATE
It is very hard not to get carried away on the day, especially if you see runners you *know* you can normally beat, but remember you have chosen to do this as a lsr for a very good reason. A HM can take up to two weeks to recover from and you cannot afford this interruption to your training at this juncture, especially if you plan to race again later in the month.
Whichever way you do it, remember to breathe, run tall, relax and smile
Here's a few ideas for tapering and race prep during the week. Don't forget to make sure you're confident of the course too, you really don't want any surprises en route.
FOCUS FOR THE WEEK: The Naked Running Game - to do alongside breathing, running tall, relaxing and smiling
Some of you had a preview of this last week. Here it is again for those of you who might have missed it.
Some of you are struggling with naked running and that's fine, you're only in the second week of this and are not expected to 'get it right' straight away. Here's something that might help:
First of all, get nearly naked (no headphones but you need a gps for this):
- pick an easy run (or recovery)
- set the watch to 'average pace' setting (suggestions welcome for what setting would work best here...)
- start off with baby steps (as you should for every run ) for five-eight minutes, no need to check pace on this section
- now play 'guess the pace': guess what pace you're running at (no peeking), then look at your watch. How far out were you? How does what you felt like reconcile with pace?
- now run at the pace you should have been running at according to your schedule. Focus on how this feels. Carry on without checking your watch.
- after five minutes or so, play 'guess the pace' again etc
Do this every five minutes or so as you run. As the run progresses, you should become 'better' at this. You don't have to 'go naked' every run, gps watches are a very useful tool, but being able to accurately assess your own pace and how you feel at this pace will make you a better runner, trust me.
Go run Novices 0 -
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ROCK N ROLL HALF
Some of you (TFGR, Stevo, Pink and....? ) are running this Sunday in the RnR half, very best of luck. Some of you are using this as a lsr. Be very careful....Make yourself a pace band such as thihttp://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/runners-world-pace-band-generator/3918.htmls andDO NOT DEVIATE
It is very hard not to get carried away on the day, especially if you see runners you *know* you can normally beat, but remember you have chosen to do this as a lsr for a very good reason. A HM can take up to two weeks to recover from and you cannot afford this interruption to your training at this juncture, especially if you plan to race again later in the month.
Whichever way you do it, remember to breathe, run tall, relax and smile
Here's a few ideas for tapering and race prep during the week. Don't forget to make sure you're confident of the course too, you really don't want any surprises en route.
Awesome post, Dubgal. Lots to take in!
Re the above...I think I'm in trouble. I was hoping I could actually race the RnR, because it's my first half and I want to do really well. But you and my coach are saying to run it like an LSR. But I really wish I could race it. I really, really, really want to test myself and my training.
I am also signed up for the FD 10 mile on the 22nd.
So...is it better to treat the RnR as a LSR and race the 10 mile? Or can I race the RnR and treat the 10 mile as an LSR?
I'm going on holidays shortly after the RnR anyway....
And yes, I'm asking my coach the same questions! But it helps to have other people's opinions. So what do you think?0 -
This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »Awesome post, Dubgal. Lots to take in!
Re the above...I think I'm in trouble. I was hoping I could actually race the RnR, because it's my first half and I want to do really well. But you and my coach are saying to run it like an LSR. But I really wish I could race it. I really, really, really want to test myself and my training.
I am also signed up for the FD 10 mile on the 22nd.
So...is it better to treat the RnR as a LSR and race the 10 mile? Or can I race the RnR and treat the 10 mile as an LSR?
Am interested in this too. I've signed up for both.0 -
So, first of all, I am not qualified to give advice but here goes:
But having done a couple of parkruns as (part of) LSRs, I actually don't believe it works. You need iron discipline to stick to LSR pace, but what's even harder, is the fact that you're surrounded by folks that you should be eating your dust I can be pretty tough on myself to stick things out, but I have found that near impossible.
TFGR, in your case, as this is your first half marathon, don't even think about racing or not-racing. Finishing it, while feeling strong throughout, should be your objective. Remember, you'll be going double the distance sooner than you think - and it would be awful to not have a nice experience at your first half. Nobody should run towards a target time for their first HM. I would recommend a strategy that you run the first 10M at PMP (which should be slower than your HM race pace), and if you feel strong, then kick on and stetch the legs for the last three miles. You'll get that satisfaction from emptying the tank somewhat, you'll overtake runners, and finish strong. Believe me, it'll be hard enough, and a good enough test of your training.
The 10M (I think lots of Novices will be doing that one, I am for sure coming out for Dubgal;s flapjacks!) is built-in to the programs to be raced. You'll be stronger then, having more training done and crucially, a good test in the bank with the RnR. By all means, give that one all you got. I am planning to, anyway.
Just my €0.02. 0 -
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As Dubgal says go see somebody about this. When you're into heavy marathon training especially when it's your first time your body is going to be stressed beyond what it's used to and you need to take care of it. You're better off going sooner when you're not sure if you have a problem or not than later when you've had to stop because you definitely have a problem! There's an argument for having a regular physio appointment as you increase the demands on your body. They can work on niggles to prevent them turning into injuries and if there's nothing specifically concerning you they can massage tired muscles to help you recover.
You're a rare beast JacEim! I don't expect to say this to too many people but you're actually trying to run your LSR's too slowly. 9:03 pace is absolutely fine for general LSR's and IMO you should be running your marathon pace runs at no slower than 8mm. It doesn't mean that you have to run at 8mm on the day of the marathon PMP at 8mm and LSR at 8:45 - 9:30 is where I think that you should be aiming. Being able to chat to yourself is a reasonable sign that you were going at the right pace. Sore legs towards the end of a long run is perfectly normal.
Time to start believing in yourself a bit more JacEim - 4 hours is too slow a target for you.
Thanks Clearlier - I wish I also shared your confidence in me!!
This week is an easier week on my schedule with only a 6M run at the weekend, and I am going to heed the good advice from DG to go to a physio when I get home - the worst I can get is a good massage on the calves (damn masochistic physios!!!)
however I would like to find a HM very shortly to have a real fitness test and understand if I can go 1.45 (or better ????) in a race environment. Anyone know of any in Cork area in next couple weeks?
My legs feel very fresh today but having run for 6 of last 7 days I am going to let my body heal / recover / get stronger or whatever other magical 'stuff' happens when you DONT train
Speaking of calves - I wonder is everyone's as weird as mine. Mine aren't small, but one of them is noticeably bigger than the other (measured as 3cm extra in circumference). Mrs thinks I'm a freak
Tell me I'm not a freak.... 0 -
Hi JacEim, im definitely on the right thread, we are all marathon novices here:).Are you sure you are on the right thread, that is some serious running !!!
Sorry - cannot advise for something I cannot do:(
In my dreams I would love to be able to target running like that.. along with being 2 stone lighter....:D
best of luck with your training and i hope that niggly foot clears up soon but go get it checked out.0 -
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however I would like to find a HM very shortly to have a real fitness test and understand if I can go 1.45 (or better ????) in a race environment. Anyone know of any in Cork area in next couple weeks?
Boston Scientific HM in Clonmel - nice route through town/country roads, not a load of support but good value for t-shirt, medal, great spread afterwards - its my Club HM, can you tell
Its held on Sunday, 16th August at 11am.0 -
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This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »Awesome post, Dubgal. Lots to take in!
Re the above...I think I'm in trouble. I was hoping I could actually race the RnR, because it's my first half and I want to do really well. But you and my coach are saying to run it like an LSR. But I really wish I could race it. I really, really, really want to test myself and my training.
I am also signed up for the FD 10 mile on the 22nd.
So...is it better to treat the RnR as a LSR and race the 10 mile? Or can I race the RnR and treat the 10 mile as an LSR?
I'm going on holidays shortly after the RnR anyway....
And yes, I'm asking my coach the same questions! But it helps to have other people's opinions. So what do you think?
I've done 3 halfs - the first one was horrible, I wasn't prepared properly at all (unlike you in this situation) - the second one I started racing, aiming for 2 hours. I burned myself out about halfway and finished in 2,10 but didn't enjoy the last 5 miles particularly. The third one, I stayed at a comfortable pace, didn't worry about time, and I really enjoyed it, and finished in about 2,18 (which was still nearly 10 mins faster than my horrible first attempt). My advice is just to run it as your LSR pace or thereabouts, but to make sure you don't finish it, dreading what's to come in October.0 -
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This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »Awesome post, Dubgal. Lots to take in!
Re the above...I think I'm in trouble. I was hoping I could actually race the RnR, because it's my first half and I want to do really well. But you and my coach are saying to run it like an LSR. But I really wish I could race it. I really, really, really want to test myself and my training.
I am also signed up for the FD 10 mile on the 22nd.
So...is it better to treat the RnR as a LSR and race the 10 mile? Or can I race the RnR and treat the 10 mile as an LSR?
I'm going on holidays shortly after the RnR anyway....
And yes, I'm asking my coach the same questions! But it helps to have other people's opinions. So what do you think?
Ok, whatever you do, do NOT race both :mad:Am interested in this too. I've signed up for both.
Now we got that straight....;)
Have either of you signed up for the Race Series Half? You can use a half at a certain point in training to monitor training progress and to assess your goals but...the RnR (IMO) is too far out and the Race Series is a tiny bit too close. However, too near is better than too far out.
The marathon, as a novice especially, is one race you do NOT want to over-race for in preparation. Hal Higdon only recommends a Half eight weeks out (around t-10) and most coaches will tell you that even so - if your training is on the right track - you will be racing this on tired legs (accumulated fatigue).
My advice would be to use RnR as time on your feet. TFGR, if you're going on holiday (and planning for some down time?) you could push the boat out a little if you get coach's permission, but no need to see it as a 'make or break' event. Save yourself for the 10 mile as the real assessment of how your training has gone so far. My concern here would be that you are tapering and recovering twice in one month and that will detract from the important 'miles and time on your feet' part of training.
Use the RnR as a lsr, the 10 mile as a racing conditions test and consider incorporating the race series half in September.
Edit: ps, the fact that you're planning and ready to run 13.1 miles is proof in itself that the training is working 0 -
This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »Awesome post, Dubgal. Lots to take in!
Re the above...I think I'm in trouble. I was hoping I could actually race the RnR, because it's my first half and I want to do really well. But you and my coach are saying to run it like an LSR. But I really wish I could race it. I really, really, really want to test myself and my training.
I am also signed up for the FD 10 mile on the 22nd.
So...is it better to treat the RnR as a LSR and race the 10 mile? Or can I race the RnR and treat the 10 mile as an LSR?
I'm going on holidays shortly after the RnR anyway....
And yes, I'm asking my coach the same questions! But it helps to have other people's opinions. So what do you think?So, first of all, I am not qualified to give advice but here goes:
But having done a couple of parkruns as (part of) LSRs, I actually don't believe it works. You need iron discipline to stick to LSR pace, but what's even harder, is the fact that you're surrounded by folks that you should be eating your dust I can be pretty tough on myself to stick things out, but I have found that near impossible.
TFGR, in your case, as this is your first half marathon, don't even think about racing or not-racing. Finishing it, while feeling strong throughout, should be your objective. Remember, you'll be going double the distance sooner than you think - and it would be awful to not have a nice experience at your first half. Nobody should run towards a target time for their first HM. I would recommend a strategy that you run the first 10M at PMP (which should be slower than your HM race pace), and if you feel strong, then kick on and stetch the legs for the last three miles. You'll get that satisfaction from emptying the tank somewhat, you'll overtake runners, and finish strong. Believe me, it'll be hard enough, and a good enough test of your training.
The 10M (I think lots of Novices will be doing that one, I am for sure coming out for Dubgal;s flapjacks!) is built-in to the programs to be raced. You'll be stronger then, having more training done and crucially, a good test in the bank with the RnR. By all means, give that one all you got. I am planning to, anyway.
Just my €0.02.I've done 3 halfs - the first one was horrible, I wasn't prepared properly at all (unlike you in this situation) - the second one I started racing, aiming for 2 hours. I burned myself out about halfway and finished in 2,10 but didn't enjoy the last 5 miles particularly. The third one, I stayed at a comfortable pace, didn't worry about time, and I really enjoyed it, and finished in about 2,18 (which was still nearly 10 mins faster than my horrible first attempt). My advice is just to run it as your LSR pace or thereabouts, but to make sure you don't finish it, dreading what's to come in October.
TFGR both nop and chrislad are spot on here, its your first half, your main goal for this should be to enjoy it and finish it, forget about racing it. I did exactly that for my first half and to date its my absolute favourite one despite being very hilly, just focus on enjoying the day - you'll be running in your first HALF MARATHON yay! and practising fuelling, water intake, marathon outfit etc etc. You don't need to be putting any pressure on yourself to race this.0 -
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Somehow I knew you were all going to say that I hear you and will follow your advice. I'm sure my coach will be saying the same thing so I've no excuses, do I?!
Just to clarify, I signed up for the RnR before I started with my coach. I thought that it would be better to run this half because I would have more time to adjust my training (if need be) for the marathon after this race. That's why I went with it.
So, I'll forget about racing it (was hoping to try for a 2:50:xx so you might not call it 'racing' but to me it would be!) and just run to enjoy the experience. Even if I'll be forced to listen to music along the way. :rolleyes:
I'm going to run with my belt pouch for this week's taper runs to get a better feel for it and keep practising with opening it and getting what I need and closing it without losing anything! :P
Thanks for the input! I really appreciate it! I'm nervous and excited about the half, but really looking forward to it!0 -
[QUOTE=
I'm going to run with my belt pouch for this week's taper runs to get a better feel for it and keep practising with opening it and getting what I need and closing it without losing anything! :P [/QUOTE]
Might be obvious, but if you have a zipped pocket in your running pants, put your house key/car keys in that and then if you do have a mishap/lose stuff with the running belt, at least you can get home!
I'm running the DLR Bay 10k in Dun Laoghaire on Monday - I have family in Dun Laoghaire so looking forward to this one - is anyone else doing it? I plan on running down to the start and running back to the house for the extra miles - after I've had a Teddy's Icecream 0 -
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