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RTÉ Investigates: Medical suppliers bribing hospital purchasers

  • 16-07-2015 11:53PM
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭


    Surprised there's nothing about this yet on Boards. It looks like some people in very powerful positions as purchasers of medical equipment and services for Irish hospitals are in major trouble, if Paul Murphy's report on Prime Time tonight is all accurate.

    It became clear quickly that the source for the story was within the company, Eurosurgical Ltd, as the emails used were from the Sales director in that firm. Sure enough when the "whistleblower" was interviewed he had been an employee of Eurosurgical Ltd. Be careful what enemies you make.

    The firm was essentially getting quotes from competing firms from these hospital buyers and thus winning contracts but it was also bidding higher - 10 times in one case - than those firms and still getting the contract (i.e. Irish taxpayers were paying for this). In return, the senior hospital purchasers were given holidays and so forth - with very unconvincing explanations for why Eurosurgical paid for these holidays.

    Excellent work, RTÉ. I sense this is only the tip of things. We need more eyes on people who have the power to award lucrative public contracts. I'd say this firm is now in major difficulty not only within its own industry and with hospitals but also with the Revenue.

    Here's a website summary of the programme, but the whole thing is worth watching:

    http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0716/715345-senior-hospital-staff-accepted-gifts-from-supplier/


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Comments

  • #2
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Didn't see it but that it happens is not surprising, the health and medical supplies industries are run on practices that some would call bribery.


  • #3
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Ach, bribery schmibery.
    We are talking pennies here really, and it happens all the time in business. A little bit of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. You would need to be very innocent or ignorant of how the world works to think this story has any bite in it.
    RTE scraping the bottom of the barrel if this is the best they can do looking for inefficiency and lack of transparency in the health service.


  • #4
    arctictree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,570 ✭✭✭arctictree


    The two involved have been suspended with pay. That'll teach them...


  • #5
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Happens in most big companies i would imagine


  • #6
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Perhaps but that doesn't make it acceptable . The consumer ends up paying for these perks.


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  • #7
    eamonnq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭eamonnq


    arctictree wrote: »
    The two involved have been suspended with pay. That'll teach them...

    Suspending them without pay, prior to a full investigation might have been more expensive in the long run!!


  • #8
    gladrags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Ach, bribery schmibery.
    We are talking pennies here really, and it happens all the time in business. A little bit of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. You would need to be very innocent or ignorant of how the world works to think this story has any bite in it.
    RTE scraping the bottom of the barrel if this is the best they can do looking for inefficiency and lack of transparency in the health service.

    Its the tip of the iceberg.

    This is small fry compared to what is going on with major suppliers.

    Surgical instruments and equipment are very expensive.

    There are several major suppliers involved in this lucrative market.


  • #9
    jjC123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭jjC123


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't The Beacon and St. Vincents private? Isn't gift-giving as an extra incentive for a company to buy your product just private corporations at work? Or are there laws against it?


  • #10
    gladrags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    jjC123 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't The Beacon and St. Vincents private? Isn't gift-giving as an extra incentive for a company to buy your product just private corporations at work? Or are there laws against it?

    If decisions are made on the purchase of surgical equipment based on gifts,rather than the quality and justified cost of the product,does this not compromise the safety of the patient,and increase the risk.?

    There are strict EU guidlines and standards that govern the procurement of surgical equipment,particularly instruments used directly on the patient.

    And gifts are not one of them.

    According to the RTE broadcast,there are other hospitals involved in this practice.

    This should not be swept under the carpet.

    This particular company is very well known,and this issue is not specefic to this company.

    By a long shot.


  • #11
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Didn't see it but that it happens is not surprising, the health and medical supplies industries are run on practices that some would call bribery.

    Not everyone is the same.
    And the sad thing is that honest companies are now being tarred with the same brush.

    Companies who don't enage in this are the biggest loosers, apart form the taxpayer or hospital owner as in Beacon.
    How would you like to be in one of the companies who unfairly lost business to the one mentioned in Prime Time?
    gladrags wrote: »
    Its the tip of the iceberg.

    This is small fry compared to what is going on with major suppliers.

    Surgical instruments and equipment are very expensive.

    There are several major suppliers involved in this lucrative market.

    If you have evidence go to the guards or call Prime Time.
    Don't just be lazy and basically intimidate that everyone is doing it.
    gladrags wrote: »
    ...

    According to the RTE broadcast,there are other hospitals involved in this practice.

    This should not be swept under the carpet.

    This particular company is very well known,and this issue is not specefic to this company.

    By a long shot.

    Again put your money where your mouth is.

    No one in the industry, or at least those playing by the rules, want this swept under the carpet.
    In fact they want it thoroughly exposed so that it is a fair playing field.

    Today all medical suppliers, rightly or wrongly, are being lumped in with this company.

    And that includes the companies who actually lost business because of this particular company. :mad:

    But of course you carry right on labelling everyone the fooking same.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • #12
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jjC123 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't The Beacon and St. Vincents private? Isn't gift-giving as an extra incentive for a company to buy your product just private corporations at work? Or are there laws against it?

    If someone took an incentive to buy something, on a companies behalf, at four times the cost then it is fraud.


  • #13
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    jjC123 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't The Beacon and St. Vincents private? Isn't gift-giving as an extra incentive for a company to buy your product just private corporations at work? Or are there laws against it?

    Beacon is private, St Vincents Private is private, but this was Vincents public.

    And no not all private corporations or companies buy their contracts with gifts.
    Companies and organisations have rules about staff getting gifts from suppliers.
    Some companies decide that gifts, like the christmas bottles of whiskey or wine, are often meant to be put into a central kitty and raffled off.
    Other companies have rules in place that strictly forbid gifts above a small value.
    Yes you can accept a diary, a box of chocs, a bottle of plonk, but that is it.

    Gifts or "sweetners" are not meant to be given or sought.
    Of course how many companies, and indeed organisations of the state, offer certain people match day tickets for rugby internationals, All Irelands, etc.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #14
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Happens in most big companies i would imagine

    Yes but when it's public money there's a difference.

    Looks like James Reilly got a donation from them of €650 for a golf classic in 2008.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69717471


  • #15
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Yes but when it's public money there's a difference.

    Not in the eyes of the law.

    Fraud is fraud.


  • #16
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Not in the eyes of the law.

    Fraud is fraud.

    Yes I meant more from a public rage point of view, private companies can bung and bribe each other for all I care :D


  • #17
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    What surprised me is that it is procurement people doing this. They are supposed to be the gamekeepers that stop this kind of thing happening and as such, are often subject to closer scrutiny.

    A procurement manager with a criminal conviction for fraud will never work in that field again.


  • #18
    michael999999
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Interesting that one of Denis o Brien's company's is at the wrong end of a dodgy deal for a change!


  • #19
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    Just finished watching it there, interesting that authorities knew about it over a year ago and only today was anything actually done to suspend payment.


  • #20
    michael999999
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Just finished watching it there, interesting that Leo knew about it over a year ago and only today was anything actually done to suspend payment.

    That's fine Gael for you. Asleep at the wheel!

    IBRC, siteserv, Rehab, NAMA. No governance or oversight from this so called Government!


  • #21
    gladrags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    jmayo wrote: »
    Not everyone is the same.
    If you have evidence go to the guards or call Prime Time.
    Don't just be lazy and basically intimidate that everyone is doing it.

    The Gardai and the HSE were informed a year ago.

    RTE has specified that there are at least another 3-4 Dublin hospitals involved,but they cannot name them for legal reasons.

    I don't see you mention the interests of the patient,which as far as I am concerned,is the priority.

    I am sure that you would like to be reassured that if you or any of your family were to undergo a medical procedure,that the equipment used,is fit for purpose.


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  • #22
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    That whistleblower should be rewarded a huge sum of money - need more people like that in this country.

    The people committing the fraud, should go to prison - but what are the chances of that in this country?


  • #23
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Ach, bribery schmibery.
    We are talking pennies here really, and it happens all the time in business. A little bit of you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. You would need to be very innocent or ignorant of how the world works to think this story has any bite in it.
    RTE scraping the bottom of the barrel if this is the best they can do looking for inefficiency and lack of transparency in the health service.

    Hi Bertie.


  • #24
    brightspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    Hopefully Revenue audit all those involved, and issue their punitive fines where appropriate.


  • #25
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    If these were public procurement contracts then they must obey European public procurement law, such as laws and procedures from the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU). This being Ireland I wouldn't be surprised if these procedures were not followed. Doesn't Ireland pay a lot more for branded drugs rather than paying less for generic drugs that do the same job?

    Private companies often have their own ethical procedures in place, so that gifts from suppliers above a certain amount have to be declared. Private companies don't have to follow the OJEU, so they don't fall under these procedures.

    I would hope that these buyers that should have been working to get the best price for the best service when using public money will now be charged with fraud for not carrying out their role according to the principles laid out under European public procurement law.


  • #26
    BigBrownBear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭BigBrownBear


    What should be happening in the health service is a proper tendering process.
    A ward or department identifies a number of medical products it requires.
    They meet with the purchasing department and agree specs required.
    The purchasing dept then contacts ALL potential suppliers to submit a quote, based on the specs requested.
    Each company then provides a quote and a sample of their product, for quality analysis.
    Each sample is assessed and the ward or dept meet with purchasing dept and give feedback.
    A contract is awarded, for a defined period to the company that satisfies both quality and cost.
    This ensures the decision is not left up to one individual, thus reducing the likelihood of the indivual being potentially compromised


  • #27
    Aidric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,598 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    What surprised me is that it is procurement people doing this. They are supposed to be the gamekeepers that stop this kind of thing happening and as such, are often subject to closer scrutiny.

    A procurement manager with a criminal conviction for fraud will never work in that field again.

    From experience I can say that procurement would be subject to strict audit controls, both internal and external. I haven't seen the documentary but was their any attention paid to internal audit function?


  • #28
    UsedToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭UsedToWait


    Aidric wrote: »
    From experience I can say that procurement would be subject to strict audit controls, both internal and external. I haven't seen the documentary but was their any attention paid to internal audit function?

    Presumably, given what has come out about competitor's prices being shared with the company, they were able to be the lowest bidder.
    Also, I would assume the purchasing department was favourable to the company's product in the scoring process of the tendering in respect of the intangible elements such as quality.

    Given that payments were allegedly given in cash, I'm not sure how the auditors could find anything amiss?


  • #29
    Massimo Cassagrande
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Massimo Cassagrande


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Didn't see it but that it happens is not surprising, the health and medical supplies industries areIreland is run on practices that some would call bribery.

    Fyp.


  • #30
    brightspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    UsedToWait wrote: »
    Presumably, given what has come out about competitor's prices being shared with the company, they were able to be the lowest bidder.
    Given that payments were allegedly given in cash, I'm not sure how the auditors could find anything amiss?

    One item was mentioned that cost approx. 10x the cost of the original suppliers? Hardly lowest bid.


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  • #31
    UsedToWait
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭UsedToWait


    brightspark wrote: »
    One item was mentioned that cost approx. 10x the cost of the original suppliers? Hardly lowest bid.

    I wasn't aware of that - particularly the hugely inflated cost.
    However, the point remains that in the tendering process, cost is just one element..


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